NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

SilverGhost

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'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
x2^

I would personally do the repairs because one has nothing, directly, to do with the other. And times are getting tougher so we take what work we can get ;) But I would suggest those with CAT filters, fuel return mod, etc. take them off before getting the fuel system repaired under warranty.

Jason
 

ezshift5

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2013 JSW TDI (Enroute BB).......2017 Jetta 1.4 turbo 5M ....................
......impressive to continue seeing VW stepping up to the plate long past 100.000 miles.


ez
 

GTIDan

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2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
VW has been picking up the tap for this for the past year to so...............perhaps longer.
When my car blew there was no discussion............my dealer said: sorry, we'll take care of it and it will be ready in less than two days.
 

T100TDI

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Interesting seeing as how my dealer mentioned they weren't covering them now that the fuel guard was released. The one person who worked in service that advised against the fuel filling guard is no longer there so I'll see how it goes if I ever have to deal with it. And most likely go to another dealer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

geez

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Just bought a 2010 TDI. Yeah! Sold our 98 TDI with 292k ran perfect. Yeah!

New to us TDI had 120k and ran perfect. Prior owner bought $3000 extended warranty through 125k miles, Yeah! Was transferable for $75, YEAH!!! Who would spend $75 to transfer a warranty that only has 4k miles left in it? Not usually me, but I did for some reason. Divine intervention is my reason.

Motor dies and gives the two codes. AAA flatbeds it to a VW Stealership. Waiting for the final numbers (and a rental car to boot). They are currently saying $5-9k to fix this.

If the numbers are accurate at 1% failure...throwing a car away when it happens, scares me...especially when we just bought a 2009 TDI wgn with the same miles.

I know there is a thread specific to the HPFP failures, but I can't find it, or I'd post this there too.

May you all be among the 99%!!!
 

Smokin_Joe

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https://www.google.ca/search?q=HPFP...&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=CnX-VLL_CI7toATN1IL4Bg
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=273983
And my personal favourite
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=410742
Good luck
The dealer replaced everything after the wifes car died the second time
No questions or grief
Didn't dare accuse us of miss fueling.
Trust me
There is an issue with non stainless steel used in the tank lift pump leading to rust from moisture from warm fuel being returned to cold tank. This causes filter clogging and hpfp starving.
Enjoy.
Car runs fine....for now
 

South Coast Guy

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Just bought a 2010 TDI. Yeah! Sold our 98 TDI with 292k ran perfect. Yeah!
New to us TDI had 120k and ran perfect. Prior owner bought $3000 extended warranty through 125k miles, Yeah! Was transferable for $75, YEAH!!! Who would spend $75 to transfer a warranty that only has 4k miles left in it? Not usually me, but I did for some reason. Divine intervention is my reason.
Motor dies and gives the two codes. AAA flatbeds it to a VW Stealership. Waiting for the final numbers (and a rental car to boot). They are currently saying $5-9k to fix this.
If the numbers are accurate at 1% failure...throwing a car away when it happens, scares me...especially when we just bought a 2009 TDI wgn with the same miles.
I know there is a thread specific to the HPFP failures, but I can't find it, or I'd post this there too.
May you all be among the 99%!!!
Must be 1,000 posts about HPFP failures. It appears that VW has repaired them all on their dime.
 

ezshift5

Veteran Member
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Location
West Coast
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2013 JSW TDI (Enroute BB).......2017 Jetta 1.4 turbo 5M ....................
......the TDI's fuel system reliability continues to be troublesome:

2015 CR "Annual Auto Issue" shows my JSW diesel 09 thru 13 with solid black dots (you don't want these)........

1% (reportedly) seems miniscule........but then.......

Love the torque (and the fuel numbers). VW's responsible repair policy goes a long way in reducing 'Reliability Anxiety'..............

ez
 

kjclow

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Charlotte, NC
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
There is an issue with non stainless steel used in the tank lift pump leading to rust from moisture from warm fuel being returned to cold tank. This causes filter clogging and hpfp starving.
This is the first I've seen of any posts claiming an underlying cause to the HPFP failures. Not specifically questioning you, Smokin_Joe, but how reliable is this claim? That would see to be a much easier and quicker fix for all of us instead of waiting for the pump to implode. Seems like it would be cheaper for VW to replace the lift pump under a recall, too.
 

kjclow

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Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
......the TDI's fuel system reliability continues to be troublesome:

2015 CR "Annual Auto Issue" shows my JSW diesel 09 thru 13 with solid black dots (you don't want these)........

1% (reportedly) seems miniscule........but then.......

Love the torque (and the fuel numbers). VW's responsible repair policy goes a long way in reducing 'Reliability Anxiety'..............

ez
Remember on the CR comments, those are summarized reports from owners. If I had a failure, I would make sure that everyone knew about it. CR doesn't like my annual car survey because they basically say, "I changed the oil and motored on"
 

ATR

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Baltimore
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2011 Golf TDI 6MT
......the TDI's fuel system reliability continues to be troublesome:

2015 CR "Annual Auto Issue" shows my JSW diesel 09 thru 13 with solid black dots (you don't want these)........

1% (reportedly) seems miniscule........but then.......

Love the torque (and the fuel numbers). VW's responsible repair policy goes a long way in reducing 'Reliability Anxiety'..............

ez
Consumer reports can't guarantee everyone who receives a survey letter to fill it out. Most who do receive a survey won't fill it out if they are happy with their car. Those that DO have problems will make sure everyone knows about it.

I'm happy to report that I have had no issues with my car. It's been a great daily driver.
 

Smokin_Joe

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This is the first I've seen of any posts claiming an underlying cause to the HPFP failures. Not specifically questioning you, Smokin_Joe, but how reliable is this claim? That would see to be a much easier and quicker fix for all of us instead of waiting for the pump to implode. Seems like it would be cheaper for VW to replace the lift pump under a recall, too.
That claim is very reliable.
I am not saying it is the only reason they are failing but if you starve a fuel pump it can't cool itself and that will lead to failure. If the rust particles get past the filter that will kill the pump as well.
There shouldn't be rust coming from any metal within the fuel system.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=410742
Take a look at the picture. Those particles came from the rods in the lift pump. They were pitting out and rusted up.
It is great that VW is repairing them on their dime. Too bad it took a zillion claims draggin them kicking and screaming into court only to settle at the last minute complete with a gag order.
We personally had nothing but accusations of miss-fueling followed by denies of coverage, until we went to the DOT. (Canada)
The customer care rep, at VW, had suggested I sue them and hung up on me.
We then contacted the VW local rep and after a persuasive argument they agreed to repair it for "Research Purposes"

He said we were the only ones having a problem (don't you love that) and all the other Jetta's weren't failing.
This was from VW of Canada. (I didn't tell him we drive a Golf made in Germany not a Jetta made in Mexico )
When I mentioned all the other HPFP failures taking place he said "that is the United States and they have their own issues".
Let's take a look at the possibility of a recall.
GM didn't do it on their ignitions and that finally cost them. The cost of the fix was peanuts.
I would say that it would be cheaper to replace only the ones that fail, when they fail.
If they do this out of warranty then it reinforces their position as being a good company.
Don't know if it is a question of quality control but they told us they were having a problem getting stock of "good" HPFP's when they replaced ours the second time.
Hopefully they are using improved parts and are learning from their mistakes. They had been trying to blame the fuel quality.

If they did a recall that would be admitting they made a mistake.
I believe stainless and aluminum are used when dealing with the fuel system on a diesel. Plastics etc Aluminum tanks on commercial rigs etc
The moisture doesn't come from the fuel it comes from the air. It is condensation forming on the metal parts in the tank. The hot fuel returning from the engine heats the air and all the cold parts attract moisture, dew...call it what you want
It is normal. That is why you should have a water separator on the system.
The HPFP didn't fail the first time, it started making a noise. Just a little vibration. The dealer replaced it and the new one made the same noise.
Then they discovered the filter was plugged with rust and the canister rods were rusting.
After the "minimum research repair" was done a few months later the car died and the dealer replaced the injectors, the pumps, lines etc all the way to the fuel in the tank. Hopefully they did a thorough job.
They should have done this the first time.
 
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Smokin_Joe

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2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
Thanks Joe.
Your Welcome kjclow
I am very glad that VW has been fixing this issue out of warranty.
I think it is a very nice little car and way better quality than most of the other cars in it's price range. We shopped hard and bought this car new as a birthday gift to the wife.
It was her first new car.

We were totally heart broken when these problems first started.
 

kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I read through your linked thread and came to the same conclusion as others, if VW did use steel instead of stainless, or perhaps the wrong grade of stainless, then why are we not seeing all of the diesels since 2009 model year fail? I have 75K+ miles on the JSW and 35K+ miles on the Golf in a usually humid climate with much greater temperature swings than in Vancouver. That should lead to more condensation issues in my fuel tank. I've not had any issues with the fuel system to date.
 

Smokin_Joe

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2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
I read through your linked thread and came to the same conclusion as others, if VW did use steel instead of stainless, or perhaps the wrong grade of stainless, then why are we not seeing all of the diesels since 2009 model year fail? I have 75K+ miles on the JSW and 35K+ miles on the Golf in a usually humid climate with much greater temperature swings than in Vancouver. That should lead to more condensation issues in my fuel tank. I've not had any issues with the fuel system to date.
Now if quality control wasn't closely monitored and the sources of steel used in the rods on the tank was able to differ you would have a situation where some rusted and others didn't.
Real world....
Bottom line the source of the steel isn't controlled or monitored as closely as it should be.
Or physic's changed on some of us cause we didn't pray to the right God's.
Your choice of reality.
Or...you might want to ask yourself why VW is stepping up and covering these failures.
Hmmmm....
I read through your linked thread and came to the same conclusion as others
Do tell... what conclusion is that? When I reread it they agreed with me.....
Quote details please.....
 
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ATR

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My guess is that inferior stainless steel was used for the rods and that this is one of the major causes of the failures. To have to fix all the cars as a recall would be HUGE undertaking.
 

Smokin_Joe

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My guess is that inferior stainless steel was used for the rods and that this is one of the major causes of the failures. To have to fix all the cars as a recall would be HUGE undertaking.
Thanks ATR
I edited the post above and I agree they are trying to save money and face....
 

kjclow

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Do tell... what conclusion is that? When I reread it they agreed with me.....
Quote details please.....
Reread my whole post.
I read through your linked thread and came to the same conclusion as others, if VW did use steel instead of stainless, or perhaps the wrong grade of stainless, then why are we not seeing all of the diesels since 2009 model year fail?
I am not disagreeing that the rusted rods may be one of the causes of the pump failures. Just stating that if it is just bad rods, we should be seeing a much higher failure rate than the 0.11% listed on NHTSA. I think that number is higher but even if it is a factor of 10, failure rate is still in the 1% range. For lists of replaced parts to repair the failed HPFP, I don't remember seeing the fuel sending rods on there.
 
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ATR

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Reread my whole post.

I am not disagreeing that the rusted rods may be one of the causes of the pump failures. Just stating that if it is just bad rods, we should be seeing a much higher failure rate than the 0.11% listed on NHTSA. I think that number is higher but even if it is a factor of 10, failure rate is still in the 1% range. For lists of replaced parts to repair the failed HPFP, I don't remember seeing the fuel sending rods on there.
The reason you didn't see the fuel sending rods is likely because the rods are permanently attached to the fuel sending unit.
 

kjclow

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But is the fuel sending unit being replaced as part of the HPFP replacement?
 

ATR

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ticketed2much

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If they did a recall that would be admitting they made a mistake.
I believe if the rods were causing most or all of the problems, VW would have issued a recall and fixed them already. It would cost significantly less than replacing all of the HPFP's on their dime. The problems go much deeper than that and cost significantly more per car to fix.

Then they discovered the filter was plugged with rust and the canister rods were rusting.
Which filter was clogged? The fuel filter? It would take a lot of rust to plug it.

The fuel filter should be catching these rust particles before they get to the HPFP. It would be interesting to look at a sample of TDI's and see what percent of the rods are significantly rusted.
 

nate0031

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I believe if the rods were causing most or all of the problems, VW would have issued a recall and fixed them already. It would cost significantly less than replacing all of the HPFP's on their dime. The problems go much deeper than that and cost significantly more per car to fix.
I'm with you on this. VW would gladly change the sender in lieu of the entire fuel system. It takes a half hour, give or take, to pop the sender out and put in a new one. Maybe longer if they need to pump the tank out. This would be immensely cheaper.

Also, looking through some of the pump tear-downs on here after a failure, there was not a significant amount of rust in the pump or filter, if any. I think the failures are due to poor design, largely stemming from the plunger not being indexed and ergo allowing rotation. If the plunger and roller were better designed, I feel that would eliminate most failures.

I'm not saying rust doesn't play a part in some issues or failures, but if the whole problem were simply rust, VW would've changed the rods after the first couple years of failures or added better filtration.
 
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ATR

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I always wondered why the piston wasn't slightly oval shaped to prevent the piston from spinning around.
 

Smokin_Joe

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I agree with anyone that says that the HPFP system on the TDI Volkswagens have a problem and needs redesigning.
Anything I say would be my opinion based on my direct experience with certain aftermarket repair shops, Volkswagen of Canada, Volkswagen of Canada dealers, Oil analysis lab and internet postings like this.
Other sources not mentioned could be the DOT and the NHTSA.

If I infered that the only source of the HPFP pump failures was due to the fuel sending rods rusting my apologizes.

My intent was to inform everyone that one source of premature HPFP failures was incorrect steel content used in the lift pumps, leading to fuel starvation.
Why they haven't had a recall on this problem would be speculative on everyone's part.
We don't operate a multimillion corporation where decisions regarding recalls are determined based on some small figure per unit.
When you multiply those $$'s x per unit the costs become enormous.

The HPFP had started to make noise and was replaced. The new one made the same noise and then they inspected the filtration system.
The dealer tried to get me to replace the whole fuel system on our dime due to miss fueling. We refused to even look at a bill and left.
We took it to a high performance shop, specializing in Volkswagens. He was well aware of the rust problem and recommended using Stanadyne additive.

(my opinion and presumption of everyone"s attitude)
Everyone is saying that the fuel in North America is substandard and is the cause of the problems.
I refused to believe this.

He said the dealer should have seen slight evidence in the filter on previous services and he had never seen it this bad before. (This repair shop had been recommended to me by a buddy who had a high performance TDI before the failures started.)

This lead me to believe that the dealers were not informed to look for rust in the fuel system at every service.

Volkswagen of Canada is stubborn and didn't want any part of paying to repair the vehicle and when the regional rep agreed it was done at the bare minimum.
(Again my opinion)
The minimal repair lead to a complete failure of the HPFP, a few months later. The wife was left on the side of the highway after little or no warning. It started to act cold and unresponsive. It stalled a couple of times and it refused to start. It was towed to the dealer.
This repair came with a totally different attitude.
They tested for miss-fueling and they replaced the complete fuel system.
They never accused us of anything and we were met with the utmost courtesy.

(Remember all of this is my opinion based on my experiences)

Cummins have engines that are running High injection pressures as great as the TDI. These same engines are reprogrammed by others and produce even higher pressures.
Check out Pittsburgh Power.
http://www.pittsburghpower.com/
Allot of diesel manufacturers are running high injector pressures and they are NOT having the same issues.

I personally have a 03 Dodge Cummins with a cp3 injection pump.
I have an Edge Juice with Attitude programmer.
Earlier model Cummins had Bosch injector pumps, they were prone to failure if the lift pump didn't supply consistent pressure.
My CP3 has had fluctuations in lift pump pressure and has yet to fail. I now run a Fass 150 lift pump for filtration.
When I saw the rust in the wifes filter and knew that the HPFP was starving I remembered the troubles the early injector pumps had on the Dodge Cummins.

I agree with anyone that the filtration, HPFP, fuel sending unit and any other parts that are failing prematurely should be corrected.

Good luck one and all
 
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GoFaster

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Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
I always wondered why the piston wasn't slightly oval shaped to prevent the piston from spinning around.
It is exceptionally difficult to manufacture an intentionally out-of-round shape to the exacting tolerances required in this application.

The CP4 is an inherently bad design. I know that pumps have been found with the piston misaligned, but I suspect that the severe misalignment is a consequence of the failure, not the cause of it. One problem with the CP4 is that there is little incentive for the roller (cam-follower) to roll rather than slide against the cam. (There is no mechanical advantage in the design for it to roll rather than slide.) Another problem is that during the dwell phase of the pump cam, there is nothing stopping slight misalignment, which can then edge-load the roller once it reaches an inclined portion of the cam, until the forces involved urge it back into alignment again.
 

turbovan+tdi

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And don't forget, it seems Canadian's, except Joe, are not getting covered, double butt whammy.
 
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