MKIV-Will Injector balance net better MPG

Franko6 · Apr 26, 2018

Injectors that are installed without consideration to pop pressures and flow rate are not going to get fuel economy.

Installing nozzles without knowing if they leak or what pressure they are set is a form of Russian Roulette. Even some who install and 'calibrate' nozzles, we have seen the pistons melted out. That is a runaway nozzle. You will figure it out when the piston cracks in two or the combustion bowl melts into your exhaust port.

+/- .4 is not that close, especially if your pop pressures are low. The average pop pressure we see when first installing a new set of nozzles on injector bodies, is the NOP1 pressure is down around 170-190 bar, when it should be 220. The difference in fueling is not just volume, but atomization. If you are popping low pressures, your nozzles are making larger fuel droplets. Let's face it. The #1 reason for the large pressure increase on the modern CR engines is to blow the fuel into molecules for the most complete burn.

The second stage (NOP2) is even more critical. At the higher pressure at 300bar (4500psi), a shim change of .001" will make a pressure change of about 10 bar, or 150psi. This doesn't seem like much until you figure within a window of pressure, the fuel volume will change dramatically.

So, first, you injectors are undoubtably popping low, for lower atomization and 2) they aren't emitting the same amount of fuel. We usually set injectors under .2mg/str.

I suggest you fix them.

[486] · Apr 27, 2018

mine's still getting 48ish with unbalanced crappy DSS-r .360s and a hx40 atop a td04hl-19t
Idles mostly on one cylinder, haven't even bothered to check which one on the smooth idle power balancing deal yet.

check your rear brakes, they're probably stuck with rust

Nevada_TDI · Apr 27, 2018

Frank, thank you for joining in. On new .216's what would you recommend both the first stage and second stage pop pressures be for best atomization and FE?

sltlytwkd · Apr 27, 2018

[486] said:
mine's still getting 48ish with unbalanced crappy DSS-r .360s and a hx40 atop a td04hl-19t

Not to derail, but do you have any pics of the compound build!??

Franko6 · Apr 27, 2018

486,

We don't depend on luck. If you don't know what your nozzles are doing, you risk the engine. Sure, some of them will work 'right out of the box', but that doesn't mean taking efforts with them will not improve performance.

The worst we know of with 'slapped in' injectors is a 18 mile run to destruction. One nozzles overfueling melted a piston until it cracked in two. Sure, he was driving like a wild man and was doing 120+, but these engines can endure being pushed very hard as long as the engine's requirements are met. That does not mean wildly spewing fuel into a cylinder.

Nevada_TDI,

I think the middle of the road in 220/300bar. Pushing an injector for more fuel by higher pressures, you end up being disappointed. Cavitation will actually reduce fuel volume as pressures increase. Reducing pressures can make the nozzle fuel less, but it also reduces atomization. The better the fuel is driven to mist, the better it burns.

I would not recommend anything different for .216's, New or otherwise. The nozzles need to run at the appropriate crack pressure in order to do their job efficiently. As much or more important, that the nozzles fuel the same amount, at the same pressures, so that the 'idle balance' will be as close to 0.00 mg/str for each cylinder.

We pioneered the method for determining the fueling deviation between nozzles by using the VCDS/ Engine Module/ block 13 numbers to help set injectors that are running close to each other.

Anyone who sets nozzles by using only emulations will find that actual operation in a well-maintained engine will show reality. Those who install without attempting to discover injector values are shooting in the dark.

red16vdub · Apr 27, 2018

IndigoBlueWagon said:
This is what you can see when mrchill sets up your car:

Took this photo just now. This tank is all commuting and short trips, including a drive to the airport where the last 10 miles took nearly an hour. I haven't had sub-700 mile tank in years.

Peter I have to agree. However only my Alh wagon easily gets 700 or better. Last year on a trip to Miami I got 895 miles before fueling, year before that 850. Chill seems to think the wagon is more aerodynamic that’s why we see better mileage, weather that’s true or not I’m not sure. I do know I’ve never gotten more than 625 from my 01 Alh sedan regardless how I drive. Both tanks are vented btw.

Bajan

IndigoBlueWagon · Apr 27, 2018

Filled the tank yesterday, 745 miles. As posted above, far from ideal conditions for FE. But typical. For some reason I can get about a gallon more fuel in my wagon than in my Golf. And I've seen great range on trips, too. 830 miles running at 75 MPH isn't bad.

[486] · Apr 27, 2018

sltlytwkd said:
[486] said:

mine's still getting 48ish with unbalanced crappy DSS-r .360s and a hx40 atop a td04hl-19t

Click to expand...

Not to derail, but do you have any pics of the compound build!??

see sig

Franko6 said:
486,

We don't depend on luck. If you don't know what your nozzles are doing, you risk the engine. Sure, some of them will work 'right out of the box', but that doesn't mean taking efforts with them will not improve performance.

The worst we know of with 'slapped in' injectors is a 18 mile run to destruction. One nozzles overfueling melted a piston until it cracked in two. Sure, he was driving like a wild man and was doing 120+, but these engines can endure being pushed very hard as long as the engine's requirements are met. That does not mean wildly spewing fuel into a cylinder.

Never said you depend on luck or that you should, as you're selling a commercial product and with how out of hand consumer protection laws have gotten you're right to put things together to the level that a toddler could not manage to hurt themselves.

It's very easy to tell when there are small troubles with injectors looking at exhaust smoke color/quantity, listening to power balance, etc. Problems capable of causing engine damage? Painfully freakin' obvious. Your story of your "worst case" was likely pouring white smoke at idle, and sounding like a one-lunger. Owner decides that a few good pulls to 120 will surely fix that streaming injector, and the obvious happens.

Franko6 · Apr 27, 2018

I'm not sure why that mileage car comes into the picture. It's been set up my Chris Hill and I'm sure he knows what he is doing. But what nozzles? What pressures? I'm not sure Chris sets up nozzles. But I know that Peter has someone who does that business for him. I expect that is what he has done. What does it take to create an 800 mile tank of fuel? Peter isn't saying.

The wagons have been noted for a lower coefficient of drag.

486,

I don't think you should depend on luck. If you get those to work and don't melt or crack pistons, good for you. I don't think the variations are as obvious as you think, particularly if you have installed onto bodies that are pressuring low. That will advance the fuel timing, as the needle will pop off it's seat early. Advanced timing increased EGTs. We have recently rebuilt 2 engines and their injectors. The poorly set injectors melted out pistons in two engines.

I admire some of the things you do, 486. I wouldn't play fast and loose with injectors.

IndigoBlueWagon · Apr 28, 2018

My car got new injector bodies (not reman) and Bosio nozzles when I replaced the long block 70K miles ago. Chris pop-tests the nozzies and shims them if needed. Rarely is. I've never had injectors set up for my cars by anyone else.

My point was that good FE isn't just about fueling. Static and electronic timing, tune, vacuum system maintenance, wheel and tire selection and alignment, brakes and bearings...everything contributes. Injector selection and setup are but one factor, and perhaps not a major one. If fueling is way off it will affect FE. But if it's spot on you can still get less than optimal FE.

Nevada_TDI · Apr 28, 2018

Since we are discussing injectors here, where would I find a round-end to square-end #3 injector plug adapter that is already made? Thanks.

red16vdub · Apr 28, 2018

Nevada_TDI said:
Since we are discussing injectors here, where would I find a round-end to square-end #3 injector plug adapter that is already made? Thanks.

I don’t think there’s a round end number 3 injector adapter for a square plug. Idparts sell the connector you need but you have to remove the pins from your old plug and insert in the new one.

Bajan

IndigoBlueWagon · Apr 29, 2018

We sell the newer car-side connector so you can use an '03 injector on an earlier car. Easily swapped with a pin tool.

Nevada_TDI · Apr 29, 2018

Peter, I looked on your site and could not find it, will you please link the page for me?

EDIT: is it this one?

https://www.idparts.com/third-injector-electrical-connector-p-1623.html

red16vdub · Apr 29, 2018

Nevada_TDI said:
Peter, I looked on your site and could not find it, will you please link the page for me?

EDIT: is it this one?

https://www.idparts.com/third-injector-electrical-connector-p-1623.html

That’s the one .

Bajan

IndigoBlueWagon · Apr 29, 2018

That's the one.

Franko6 · Apr 30, 2018

I don't think new bodies are at all necessary for a good fuel economy nozzle. Good nozzles are necessary. Still don't know what nozzles except they are Bosio.

We run a very good Bosch nozzle DSLA P150 520, that includes the intermediate element and the stop collar. That makes for a very easy and accurate nozzle setup. We regularly get those nozzles to exceed 50 mpg, but mostly, the average driver is in the high 40's. One customer who we built the engine with mileage as the purpose, regularly exceeds 60mpg. That is exceptional. I am happy driving 80 and getting 40.

In the last year alone, we have rebuilt many engines with cracked or melted pistons that were due to runaway nozzles that were either not set or set very poorly. Of the blown up engines we rebuilt, we did condemn a number of Bosio nozzles because of uncontrolled fueling. This may be attributable to lackadaisical calibration or simply no calibration. When we attempted to repair these sets of nozzles, we could not and condemned them. We have, will and do regularly condemn nozzles that will not balance out. This is not directed at any particular company, but we all know the Chinese nozzles JBMorrison, for example, that were Bosch knock-offs.

We have developed a method of checking the accuracy of a nozzle install. This method does not work unless the injectors are firing at proper pressure. It is the VCDS Engine Module/ block 13 idle balance. Numbers that stray +/- .5 mg/str. are excessive and should be corrected.

The 'smell test' or even the EGT test are very weak ways to determine injector balance.
For example, we had one person say their EGT's were slightly high, 1000 degrees, but the exhaust gasses mix in the manifold and one cylinder was wildly hot with a runaway injector that was running -1.4 mg/str. compared to the other injectors. That is into piston-melting territory.

mrchill · Apr 30, 2018

Checking injectors is important as a diagnostic avenue. I also have rebuild engines due to injector fouling. Most of the time it was fuel contamination that damaged the injectors. There was a period when I found a small number of faulty new injector nozzles...but that must have been a batch issue. While its important for FE to have good injectors and nozzles...I have often found that it is only a small part of the whole picture....but always worth checking and\or correcting. The Bosch nozzle kits are good. They always came with the plate...which is why there were more expensive than others way back when(I used to buy those). Upgrades within Bosch were much less available...so Bosio it was for a long time. Now there are other brands as well. In the case of the OP...I suspect he has...or at least had a different issue...as it was only after the tune (as I recall) that the FE dropped. So, perhaps a fine tuning would benefit him. I think he was looking at injector calibration as a means of mitigating The effects of the poor FE.

Turbodude1 · Apr 30, 2018

Thanks for the continued info guys. FWIW, this car has always returned about he same mileage around 40 from stock till now at stage 4 (mileage at 229K, last timing belt at 205k done by me). It was my old 2dr Golf that would always do high 40s. While I travel quickly on the highway, I don't drive super aggressive all the time.

As a matter of troubleshooting what do you guys recommend? Check static timing, check timing via VCDS and verify that it is in the upper end of the "safe" area, check IQ, and injector balance?

Any other items I need to look at?

I'd just book some time with MR Chill, but its 3 hours each way.

Fahrvegnugen · Apr 30, 2018

What are the injectors to get currently? Gibonta seems interesting...
I have injection numbers that deviate more than .5mg/str. The cylinders do get closer together when car is warming up.
I also get 40 mpg, but that’s from dragging rear brakes, short trips, winter and maybe snow tires.
I hope it goes well turbodude. Now I’m interested in visiting Mrchill.

Turbodude1 · May 1, 2018

I will post injector balance as soon as I get my VCDS cable back.

[486] · May 2, 2018

Turbodude1 said:
Thanks for the continued info guys. FWIW, this car has always returned about he same mileage around 40 from stock till now at stage 4 (mileage at 229K, last timing belt at 205k done by me). It was my old 2dr Golf that would always do high 40s. While I travel quickly on the highway, I don't drive super aggressive all the time.

alignment?

One that I'm running into lately is that ride height in the rear actually makes a big difference, as the camber in the beam turns into toe when the beam pivots up and down

Franko6 · May 5, 2018

Fahrveg,

Gibonta is just another name for Hflox nozzles. Putting a different name on them does not improve them. I have heard that some can get good fuel economy from them, but in my opinion, there is difficulty setting them, compared to a Bosch nozzle.

Chris,

I appreciate your response. I agree, many nozzle issues are from poor handling, installation or cleanliness. We get many reworks that are nothing but dirt ingested into the needle seat. Something the size of a grain of sand will stop a nozzle from working.

So, I also have seen that Bosio went through a 'rough patch'. Although we still see nozzles that have melted and cracked pistons, I believe is has much more to do with the injector service provider. I am sure that neither you , Chris or I would install an injector that is mis-firing, over-fueling or a runaway. I am also sure we have both seen injector work performed with terrible and obvious faults, foisted onto the novice. If it's a junk nozzle, it should be in the trash can.

Chris, maybe you are on the 'top tier' receiving nozzles. I have seen some monkey-business done that way with cam followers, cams and I could name several other parts. Maybe it's done with injectors also. For example, a lesser quality cam follower set is sold to an inexperienced 'lesser customer'. A rash of very poor lifters have been hitting our shop; cam/lifter installs with 50,000 miles that already show dwell marks. That is not the INA F-46516-72 lifter, as it should be marked. It's Chinese crap. We even saw one poorly stamped with 'INA', but nothing else was INA quality. I bet nobody sends that crap to either you or me.

486,

As a matter of course, when we have a car on the lift, we check toe-in, at very least. Most vehicles we check are 1/4" out, one way or the other. It's easy to set front toe-in. It takes bending the axle beam to correct the rear. But I don't think the mileage will suffer very much unless the toe-in/out is to the point of outrageous and scrubbing the tires away.

I believe that in poorly set injectors, the amount of leakage from the nozzle's needle seat is pumping extra fuel prematurely into the engine. That causes the engine to heat up and to impede the engine's power stroke by premature fueling. It's much to do with nozzles that won't shut down between the pilot pop and the main pop.

Nevada_TDI · May 5, 2018

The new .216's are installed, and she purrs like a kitten; a diesel powered kitten, but still a kitten. I know I will need a tune written for them to make the best use out of them. This means my 4000 mile old PP764's are now for sale; check the For Sale section if interested.

[486] · May 5, 2018

Franko6 said:
It's much to do with nozzles that won't shut down between the pilot pop and the main pop.

actually they do not close between pilot and main injection, they open to pilot needle lift (iirc around .1mm of needle lift off the seat, it is the depth of the counterbore in the tophat shaped piece) at the first pop pressure, then as the injection pressure ramps up as the camplate comes up its lobe the second spring is lifted as well at the second pressure setting and the needle completes its travel open. Needle is well against its total travel stop long before peak injection pressure is reached at max camplate lift.

for the injector to close between injection periods there would need to be two lobes on the camplate so pressure would decrease before increasing again

Franko6 · May 6, 2018

That sounds good, but I don't think it works exactly that way. When we are testing them, 486, they stop. When we have a nozzle that will not stop fueling at NOP1, we will get excessive fuel that is premature and there is an associated temperature rise.

We see plenty of nozzles done incorrectly with too much fuel coming in, uncontrolled. When the piston cracks or melts, you can bet it's a poorly controlled nozzle.

Franko6 · May 6, 2018

Nevada_TDI,

Purred like a kitten. What readings?

[486] · May 6, 2018

Franko6 said:
That sounds good, but I don't think it works exactly that way. When we are testing them, 486, they stop. When we have a nozzle that will not stop fueling at NOP1, we will get excessive fuel that is premature and there is an associated temperature rise.

I do not see how it could reclose with a rising input pressure. When the needle lifts off its seat it will actually remain open to a lower pressure than its opening pressure as it exposes the entire face of the needle rather than just the portion of it outside the seat's sealing surface. It is easy to see this with any pop tester were it opens at a higher pressure, then recloses at a significantly lower pressure.

Are you using a continuous volume pump which will actually maintain full pilot opening pressure despite nozzle flow?

Turbodude1 · May 7, 2018

Franko6 said:
I believe that in poorly set injectors, the amount of leakage from the nozzle's needle seat is pumping extra fuel prematurely into the engine. That causes the engine to heat up and to impede the engine's power stroke by premature fueling. It's much to do with nozzles that won't shut down between the pilot pop and the main pop.

I am wondering if this is my problem. I always get a puff of smoke on start up. Maybe I have a leaky injector.

Franko6 · May 7, 2018

486, as an example, you realize that some common rails injectors can have up to 5 independent injector firings? They are piezo-electric timed in milliseconds, and very much separate.

Sure, we are firing the nozzles mechanically, but the 2-stage do operate very quickly. The first stage's intent is only to reduce the 'marble' noise and make the engine run more quietly. That amount of fuel is injected in an advanced position.

When we test nozzles and isolate 1st and second stage, we do not like to see premature leaking from the nozzles. In other words, if it's supposed to pop at 300 bar, it should POP, not leak, spray or dribble. The more premature the injection happens the higher the heat it creates. Advancing injection timing can be destructive and leaking nozzles will cause that.

Of all the nozzles we have seen, the relationship to leaking and spraying; uncontrolled fueling and melted and cracked pistons is without question, related.

Turbodude,

There are two different 'smoke' issues at startup. If it's blue oil smoke, and it dissipates quickly, I call that normal. Oil leaking down the valves will allow a little bit of oil to burn off at startup. If it continues for a minute, you have piston ring problems.

On the other hand, if the smoke is white and stinky diesel smoke, there is an issue that the nozzle needle on one or more injectors are not seating correctly. The needle should not leak at rest. If you have such a needle, the 15 psi that should be held in the pump will cause as much as 1/2 teaspoon of raw diesel to drip into the combustion chamber of a piston. When the engine is started, two things happen. First, the pump must rebuild the 15 lbs of pressure that should be held in the pump for quick start. Second, the fuel dropped into the bowl is instantly vaporized into a cloud that goes out the tail pipe...stinky white smoke. In some cases, the leak is comparatively minor and fuel economy is not compromised. Others, it can be piston-melting leakage.

We have techniques that can fix injector nozzle leaks. Any leakage is indication that the nozzle is not as good as it should be and may be losing fuel economy.

We always suggest to check your pressure relief valve in the injection pump. Clean off the 2-flat nut that is near the timing belt backing plate. Remove the works and check to see if the roll pin is protruding from the end of the pressure valve unit. If it is, push the roll pin back in place, flat with the end of the pressure valve. If checked again and the roll pin is once again protruding, you may have an issue with over-pressurization of the injection pump. There are remedies for that issue, but explained in another place at another time...

MKIV-Will Injector balance net better MPG

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