5 Speed manual conversion update

vwztips

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Agreed. I was just looking for a gearbox which would match the auto GMR in 5th gear and the FHN/GGB does that. And yes these cars are fun to drive with a manual.
 

50harleyrider

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Here is another reference for the 5-speed ratios:

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5500/perdavimai.pdf


So comparing the FHN, EEN and QuickTD gears it looks like the fith gear is fairly similar. Meaning doing 2700 rpm going around 80 mph. Do I have it right? Would the overall mileage be also similar if one looks at an average 50/50 city/hwy?
5th is similar but the FHN is 3.44 ring and pinion. That's why it's 2450 at 80-much preferred-get it. 250 extra RPM will wear on you at steady interstate speeds I went through all this in my B4s-.686 then .658 then .622. Go high.These diesels can take it especially with a tune. Your MPG might not be much different,but the noise reduction in the cab is well worth it.
 
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tikal

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So it seems that if I do 60/40 for city/hwy then averaging 37 MPG is doable on these five speeds (as opposed to low 30's in an automatic). This would be for an station wagon.
2600-2700rpm @80mph is pretty close.
If you are hoping to gain major economy with gearing, you are setting yourself up for some dissapointment...
Mileage will change very little with any of the mentioned diesel transmissions, they are all within 10% overall. It still takes exactly the same amount of energy to propel a car down the road regardless of the gear ratio. The best you can hope to save is the amount of extra friction or loss of volumetric efficiency caused by the higher rpm. The added friction from 200-300rpm is probably negligable. I have tried driving in 4th gear and the MFA shows very little increase in consumption.
My current "lifetime" average is 6.0l/100km or 39.2mpg(US), mostly secondary roads (60mph) and ~25% city. I am having a hard time keeping my foot out of it, it is a very fun car to drive... I'm quite sure economy could be better if I drove it like a sane person, but it still doubles the mileage of my previous mazda 6 3.0 driven under the same conditions and has more power to boot. I am overjoyed!
I don't think I would stress out about finding the ultimate tall gearset, everything that exists has been mentioned here, there are no taller final or 5th gears than the .68 and 3.44. Just get a 5 speed in the thing you'll love it. I find the engine happier at higher revs anyway. Seems to love running about 2500, much smoother and quieter than 2000.
 

tikal

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I will have to see how much of a hassle/cost would be to replace the 5th gear with a high gear ratio. If not I can live with the EEN version.

5th is similar but the FHN is 3.44 ring and pinion. That's why it's 2450 at 80-much preferred-get it. 250 extra RPM will wear on you at steady interstate speeds I went through all this in my B4s-.686 then .658 then .622. Go high.These diesels can take it especially with a tune. Your MPG might not be much different,but the noise reduction in the cab is well worth it.
 

vwztips

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IIRC you cannot get a lower 5th than 0.68 for the 012. If you go that route. might as well buy my DVZ from v6 gasser (cheap) and swap in a 0.68 fifth
 

eyeguy

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(snip)All conversion parts for the 5 speed can be found in the junkyard (pedals, linkage, hydraulic line for clutch, axles from 2000 up).(snip)
Can you not go back to '98? I'm in the middle of sourcing everything to do the swap & wanna get everything right the first time.
 

vwztips

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Just the axles are different. I think they changed to larger CV joints in 2000 or 2001. They also were sealed on the inner ones like the automatics.

I try to get the shift linkage from a 2000-2001 model as they have screw on shift knobs which are more secure and the wood version is cheaper. IIRC the 98-99 shifters had a push down action for reverse which can sometimes break.
 

eyeguy

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Excellent! That makes life a little easier. I was hoping you were only talking about the axles. I was really hoping to re-use my RAxles, but I'm sure I can work out something with Marty or sell them here. Pretty sure I sourced an '01 shift box.
So, the 98-99 shifters are basically the same as my Jetta where you push down & left of 1st?
 

vwztips

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No, Passat reverse is right and down
 

nvr-enuf

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I debated over 5 speed vs 6 speed and found that a 6 speed purchased from the UK is around $325. Shipping is a couple of hundred (I am fortunate my work ships from the UK to the USA). The 6 speed will be a little more than the 5 speed conversion, in the end I will get my rpms vs speed that I desire. I think the resale will be better with the 6 speed.
 

vwztips

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Ok, have fun......
 

50harleyrider

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I debated over 5 speed vs 6 speed and found that a 6 speed purchased from the UK is around $325. Shipping is a couple of hundred (I am fortunate my work ships from the UK to the USA). The 6 speed will be a little more than the 5 speed conversion, in the end I will get my rpms vs speed that I desire. I think the resale will be better with the 6 speed.
I didn't see enough diffrerence in the final drive ratio to warrant the 6 sp extra $(2.15-DQS vs 2.36-FHN) plus the much more expensive dual mass flywheel clutch. Not to mention the 5 sp is a tougher box.
 
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cpinde

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I didn't see enough diffrerence in the final drive ratio to warrant the 6 sp extra $(2.15-DQS vs 2.36-FHN) plus the much more expensive dual mass flywheel clutch. Not to mention the 5 sp is a tougher box.
If the 6spd you are talking about is comparable to the O2M gasser 6spd then it's plenty tough. I've had 2 FWD O2Ms and an 04 R32 with no problems. One was pretty much stock, one turbo'd, and my R32 was supercharged. I beat the hell out of them and the biggest problem I had was breaking a shift fork in the stock one, crappy brass rivets. Fixed the problem in the other two and never had an issue.

What's the best RPM for fuel economy, besides 0 haha? I figure having a 6th gear that would drop the RPMs to that level would be perfect. It just has to maintain whatever speed you want. You could downshift when you needed to go.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
If the 6spd you are talking about is comparable to the O2M gasser 6spd then it's plenty tough. I've had 2 FWD O2Ms and an 04 R32 with no problems. One was pretty much stock, one turbo'd, and my R32 was supercharged. I beat the hell out of them and the biggest problem I had was breaking a shift fork in the stock one, crappy brass rivets. Fixed the problem in the other two and never had an issue.
What's the best RPM for fuel economy, besides 0 haha? I figure having a 6th gear that would drop the RPMs to that level would be perfect. It just has to maintain whatever speed you want. You could downshift when you needed to go.

The 02M has absolutely NOTHING in common with the longitudinal cars, you may as well compare it to a transmission in a Camry.
 

vwztips

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I have said this elsewhere but will say it again here. The DQS 6 speed is the only 6 speed I have found which is an improvement over the 5 speeds as far as RPM/MPH ratios are concerned. Therre may be other 6 speeds that I am not aware of yet. Also, the DQS is a hard box to find and it has some internal issues which need to be updated before putting it into service. When I priced them they were well north of what you are quoting and they could not get their hands on one. Which 6 speed are you getting a price for? If it doen't improve the ratios over the 5 speed then there is no reason to go that route other than saying "I have a 6 speed".

But agian, have fun if you want to go that route. It's your time and moeny.
 

Frans

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No, Passat reverse is right and down
Not exactly , there are also 5 speed passat gearboxes with reverse, press, left and forward...

I have said this elsewhere but will say it again here. The DQS 6 speed is the only 6 speed I have found which is an improvement over the 5 speeds as far as RPM/MPH ratios are concerned. Therre may be other 6 speeds that I am not aware of yet. Also, the DQS is a hard box to find and it has some internal issues which need to be updated before putting it into service. When I priced them they were well north of what you are quoting and they could not get their hands on one. Which 6 speed are you getting a price for? If it doen't improve the ratios over the 5 speed then there is no reason to go that route other than saying "I have a 6 speed".

But agian, have fun if you want to go that route. It's your time and moeny.
There are about 25 different 6 speed gearboxes available for the TDI Passat. Not only the DQS is an improvement over the 5 speeds gearboxes... The DQS gearboxes are not the best ever made btw..

Don't get to focussed onto a gearbox code and it's ratios. There are so many other variables involved for more miles per gallon... The ratio is just a small part of it. If the gearbox is for a TDI, it will do the job perfectly.
 

50harleyrider

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The 02M has absolutely NOTHING in common with the longitudinal cars, you may as well compare it to a transmission in a Camry.
Thanks Oilhammer. It's great that at least you,Frans and vwztips know what you're talking about. One has to really sort through the rest.
 
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peiphil

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Thanks Oilhammer. It's great that at least you,Frans and vwztips know what you're talking about. One has to really sort through the rest.
Hate to say this but some junk yards have a pretty good program on their computers for what fits what parts.
Just a thought!;)
 

vwztips

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Most junkyards in the US only show what came as OE for the US market. So they would not have a clue if a gearbox from Europe would fit. In fact, during my research, the dealers I talked to could not tell me what euro gearboxes fit what models.
 

vwztips

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Not exactly , there are also 5 speed passat gearboxes with reverse, press, left and forward...

Not in the USA.


There are about 25 different 6 speed gearboxes available for the TDI Passat. Not only the DQS is an improvement over the 5 speeds gearboxes... The DQS gearboxes are not the best ever made btw..

Don't get to focussed onto a gearbox code and it's ratios. There are so many other variables involved for more miles per gallon... The ratio is just a small part of it. If the gearbox is for a TDI, it will do the job perfectly.
Here is my point to all of this 6 speed vs 5 speed discussion. In the USA, we do not have easy, plentiful access to the 6 speeds, shift linkages, axles, etc. to do the conversion. You have to find just the right Audi for all the right parts and that can be a challenge.

My point and yours, is that there is not a significant difference in ratios between the 5 and 6 speeds to pay the extra cost and extra time to hunt parts for the 6 speed, when all the parts for a 5 speed are readily available in the US junkyards.

If I were in Europe, it would be totally different. I would buy a factory manual TDI and not fool with all this.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
If I were in Europe, it would be totally different. I would buy a factory manual TDI and not fool with all this.
You an me both. I'd never, EVER, buy a 2-pedal car when a 3-pedal version was available. I was so torn between my Passat TDI and a 1.8t at the time, solely based on the fact that a 1.8t engine was available with the proper gearbox.
 

tikal

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So any tradeoffs in using the Valeo single mass flywheel (SMF) for the 1.8t in the B5 five speed swap. Somebody mentioned to me that these are not meant for the TDI and they will be noisy. Any truth in this?

Valeo is supposed to be a decent brand, right? Not original VW but still pretty good, correct?
 

50harleyrider

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The noise should not be a problem in the 5 speed with any good clutch setup. The 6 speed is where you run into problems. Make sure you get one with the torque transmitting capacity of your intended tune. Also IM CharlieT if you insist on the 6 sp. He can save you a lot on your learning curve.
 
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vwztips

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Read my earlier post in thi thread.
 

50harleyrider

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Read my earlier post in thi thread.
I used this clutch http://shopping.boraparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=286 with a stock flywheel in my last B4 job and it was quiet and smooth. I used the stock flywheel. Since we are having to source flywheels with our conversions, this kit should work fine and have a nice torque carrying capacity (278 ft-lb) for a stage 2 tune. $369 sounds good too. Did you use this VR6 setup? Will this setup work in the inline configuration? What is the capacity of the Valeo you are using and told me you did get some slippage when you call up torque at lower RPMs??
 
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50harleyrider

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That kit will only work in a transverse application, longitudinal flywheel is different. Not sure about pressure plate and disc.
I wonder if we could use this PP and disc with a 1.8T or possibly a VR6 manual B5 or B5.5 flywheel? I like the silent aspect of this clutch and I can verify it is. Hopefully someone following this thread may be able to measure them.
 

50harleyrider

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But was the clutch you tried the silent type I'm referring too? Supposedly it has the right springs in the disc to prevent the problems you experienced.
 

vwztips

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IIRC it was a Sachs VR6 pressure plate with a Sachs disc using a 23 spline connection. Also had a 5# lighter flywheel which did not help. IMHO
 
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