2nd VNT17 dead

Judson

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Might also be the brand new N75 I bought and installed back in February, which just so happens to be about a few weeks before the first turbo blew....

But my mechanic is damned good so we will get it figured eventually.
 

Nevada_TDI

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If you have a boost leak equal to a 1/4" hole the turbo will keep over speeding yet the boost gauge may read "normal " pressure. I had this happen to me, that is why I know.
 

Judson

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Nevada_TDI - no sound of a boost leak has ever been heard. Even at high power - nothing. Did you hear your boost leak? How did you end up with that large of a hole?

My mechanic has double-checked for leaks and has heard/seen nothing. This was my first thought as well.

Anyway, quick update: uploaded the Malone tune this afternoon using flashzilla. Started up immediately, like almost with a "vroom" - so fast it was obviously very very different. Cross yer fingers.

Brandon has checked for boost leaks many times (he's had to clean out the intercooler now like what, three times?).

He's going to drive it around for a while, make sure it's good to go, before proceeding further.

Oh, one more thing: Garrett go back on the second VNT17 - yup. overspeed.
 
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red16vdub

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I’m curious as to which vendor sold the VNT17 that you blew/overspeed .
The reason I’m asking is because it happened to me while merging onto the highway in 3rd at WOT . The turbo had roughly about 2k miles. I was running 11 IP, lift pump, pp520, rc4 24psi and fmic.
When speaking to my guru Chill, he mentioned that there was possibly a bad batch, because it’s wasn’t the first time surrounding these 17’s . Usually there are bullet proof.


Bajan
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Second one came from us. I have the warranty report: This turbo was a mess. Overspeed damaged the wheels, bearings were excessively worn, oil coked in the vanes. I can't imagine this was a manufacturing issue. Simple overspeed.

red16vdub, your setup is pretty close to the ceiling for a VNT-17. I also wonder if an FMIC (doesn't the OP have one?), affects accuracy of MAP readings.
 

Judson

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Indeed. First one came from tunemyeuro folks. Same exact issue: overspeed.

And my mechanic blew up a used vnt15 in record time as well. Shaft broke in half!

So now the fourth turbo, another good used vnt15, is in the car with a stage 2 malone tune.

Contrary to rumors, our main vendors are selling the good stuff.

To recap: it could be a bad 3bar map, a totally invisible, unheard boost leak, an n75, or a bad tune. The stock map is back in and the tune has been changed. N75 (new as of 2/28) is still in the car.

Note throughout this the one other consistent problem was no power off the line. Took a lot if careful work between the clutch and accelerator to get going, a problem which had been going on for at least three years, prior to all of the changes - even prior to tapping the intake for a boost gauge, prior to vnt17 and all other updates, prior to new n75, and etc.

I just want my car back!
 

red16vdub

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Second one came from us. I have the warranty report: This turbo was a mess. Overspeed damaged the wheels, bearings were excessively worn, oil coked in the vanes. I can't imagine this was a manufacturing issue. Simple overspeed.

red16vdub, your setup is pretty close to the ceiling for a VNT-17. I also wonder if an FMIC (doesn't the OP have one?), affects accuracy of MAP readings.


Peter I scrap the whole idea of going back to a VNT17 after my warranty claims were denied, for over speeding turbo. Chill was very surprise of the denial.
I’ve been running a 1756 the last few years, and I had Jeff from RC retuned both my ecu’s. Rc4 + 28psi with readiness and euro Asv 5+ 30psi no worries period.


Bajan
 

red16vdub

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Indeed. First one came from tunemyeuro folks. Same exact issue: overspeed.

And my mechanic blew up a used vnt15 in record time as well. Shaft broke in half!

So now the fourth turbo, another good used vnt15, is in the car with a stage 2 malone tune.

Contrary to rumors, our main vendors are selling the good stuff.

To recap: it could be a bad 3bar map, a totally invisible, unheard boost leak, an n75, or a bad tune. The stock map is back in and the tune has been changed. N75 (new as of 2/28) is still in the car.

Note throughout this the one other consistent problem was no power off the line. Took a lot if careful work between the clutch and accelerator to get going, a problem which had been going on for at least three years, prior to all of the changes - even prior to tapping the intake for a boost gauge, prior to vnt17 and all other updates, prior to new n75, and etc.

I just want my car back!


Judson
I agree with you the vendors provide great service at reasonable prices. I was asking because I didn’t think the recent issues that people are having with vnt17’s aren’t specific to any one vendor, which leads me to believe it had to be a manufacturing problem.


Bajan
 

Judson

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Hey Bajan -

Given the feedback and pictures from Garrett on the vnt17s, I don’t think it’s a manufacturing problem. Especially since we overspeeded a vnt15 as well, breaking the shaft and creating havoc.

I think it’s important to state this for anyone looking, as I heard rumors as well.

Thanks!

Jud
 

Judson

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I have no idea what the solution is for you. I just needed to make sure that in my thread for my issues that both vnt17s were just fine from the vendors but were overspeeded to hell, just like the vnt15 we broke in half.

Update: new tune is in, boost went to 30, and mechanic quickly backed off. 30psi folks. New n75 is next to replace a new 75. If it ain’t, well....hellifiknow.
 

BobnOH

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I agree it's unlikely Garret has manufacture issue, and I notice the car is somewhat modified (enhanced), but it seems you've went thru unexpected car he!!
Having followed this post some, I'm wondering if you can summarize what caused the previous 3 (if I count correct post #1) turbos to fail?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I think the post above points out why they failed. 30 PSI on a tune for a VNT-15, which should max out at 18-19 PSI. Why he's getting that amount of overboost...that's the dilemma.
 

3L3M3NT

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With what you've spent on the previous 3 turbos, you could have got a GTD1752VRK turbo right from the get go and been done with it. With that turbo you get the spool you want with the capacity to handle 31 psi. IMO do it once and do it right the first time.

Just my .02
 

eddieleephd

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If that's 30psi on ECM it's actually 14.7 over.
I still think you have a boost leak, did you every check intake torques? And I forget what the egr was doing.
Pressure test the boost system with the engine off, should be able to hear where it's leaking if it is.

Sent from my Armor_2 using Tapatalk
 

V-DubLuv

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With what you've spent on the previous 3 turbos, you could have got a GTD1752VRK turbo right from the get go and been done with it. With that turbo you get the spool you want with the capacity to handle 31 psi. IMO do it once and do it right the first time.
Just my .02

This isn't about doing it right the first time. The vnt-17 is a great, economical, reliable choice, not everyone has the desire to run block girdles and run ridiculous sized injectors for 30+ psi of boost and everything else that goes along with it.

This guy is diagnosing a funky issue and is having a lot of bad luck at the same time. Telling him to spend $1600 on a turbo that will mask his problem is bad advice.
 

BobnOH

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Yea, I was hoping he got to the bottom of this by now. Inquiring minds want to know............
 

WildChild80

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Indeed

I read lots of these threads to prepare for future problems that hopefully never come

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Owain@malonetuning

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I also wonder if an FMIC (doesn't the OP have one?), affects accuracy of MAP readings.
If there's a leak pre-map that'll definitely cause overspeed since the ECU doesn't know how much boost it's actually making. Should be okay otherwise.

Reached out since I was also really curious what the heck is going on with it, hopefully the milder tune will help with diagnostics.


pp520+ 11mm pump will max around 165-170whp on this turbo with aggressive fueling and is definitely pushing your luck reliability wise. Heck you can break just about anything if you try hard enough, when you're getting into these kinds of mods it's best to drive appropriately; downshift when doing highway pulls, run gauges, don't launch in 1st etc. boost and egt gauges are a lot cheaper than turbos.
 

Judson

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It was the n75. The brand new from the factory n75 I put in in late February.

We actually got a fault code from the stock MAP -we think all that boost damaged it. Had to order one in quickly, as with my current 3 bar it produced too much boost for the current tune. Didn’t want to waste yet more time waiting on a new tune with higher boost on an engine that’s been through a rough year indeed. Stage 2 will be fine for the next several months at least.

Plan is to pick it up tomorrow if all goes well and just drive it, make sure we didn’t blow something else up or damage anything.

I still don’t know if the off idle lag is still there. Will keep things posted.

Down the road, i don’t know. It will be a long time before I go messing around with my baby again, if ever.
 

3L3M3NT

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If that's 30psi on ECM it's actually 14.7 over.
I still think you have a boost leak, did you every check intake torques? And I forget what the egr was doing.
Pressure test the boost system with the engine off, should be able to hear where it's leaking if it is.

Sent from my Armor_2 using Tapatalk
I really don't think he has a boost leak, since the gauge would be under reporting ,not over reporting/reading(Depending on where the sensor is placed). Plus it sounds like the mechanic has double checked the plumbing and I would think he would have heard it by now.

This isn't about doing it right the first time. The vnt-17 is a great, economical, reliable choice, not everyone has the desire to run block girdles and run ridiculous sized injectors for 30+ psi of boost and everything else that goes along with it.
This guy is diagnosing a funky issue and is having a lot of bad luck at the same time. Telling him to spend $1600 on a turbo that will mask his problem is bad advice.
I agree the VNT-17 is very good turbo for an affordable price, but it sounds like Judson is pushing his VNT-17 to it's limit and with his issues a little bit beyond what it is capable of. That's why I recommended he upgrade to a more appropriate turbo that will be able to handle the boost he's looking to make. I don't see how that is bad advice?

He can upgrade the turbo and still continue you to diagnose what is causing his boost spikes, since they will still be happening no matter which turbo he's running, except the GTD1752VRK won't grenade at 30 psi saving him the hassle of buying another new VNT-17 at $800 plus the labor of installing it, cleaning out the intercooler and piping adds up pretty quick. And he's had to do that for 3 turbos, so the $1600 GTD1752VRK is looking a lot cheaper than say $2,300 in turbos plus labor of say $1,200. Call it $2,000 for the GTD1752VRK and install or $3,500 in turbos and labor, I know which route I would have gone. ;)


pp520+ 11mm pump will max around 165-170whp on this turbo with aggressive fueling and is definitely pushing your luck reliability wise. Heck you can break just about anything if you try hard enough, when you're getting into these kinds of mods it's best to drive appropriately; downshift when doing highway pulls, run gauges, don't launch in 1st etc. boost and egt gauges are a lot cheaper than turbos.
What is in bold and larger font is exactly why I'm recommending the next size up turbo and you get the benefits of the latest in turbo technology.:)



I understand that some people are looking for an affordable turbo to replace their worn out or broken stock turbo and want a little bit more robust turbo, but if you're spending money on a larger injection pump, FMIC, good sized nozzles, and other supporting mods I don't understand why you wouldn't wanna get the most modern turbo available to you at that time.

For me when I had my turbo go back in 2008, the most reliable turbo that provided a decent gain in power at the time was a VNT-17/22. Even though it is capable of 28 psi, I wasn't quite there for that much boost, since I had the factory MAP sensor, SMIC, injectors, exhaust, etc, so I had Jeff at Rocketchip tune for my hardware. As I could afford it I upgraded little by little and with each upgrade sent my ECU to Jeff to tweak the tune for whatever piece of hardware was upgraded. Now you guys get it easy with Flashzillas and emailing tunes back and forth.:p

End of rant :D
 

Judson

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Jeff himself said that the vnt17 was “the sweet spot.” I had done a lot of research before and i didn’t want to crack the engine and replace the rods. This seemed the right thing at the time.

We also have no idea how much the bad n75 was messing things up. The vnt17s overspeeded and grenaded both times at WOT but after peak boost been reached. I saw normal peak boost (24psi) both times with the vnt17s yet blew them both up. Beyond weird.

The 30psi bit was running with a used vnt15 with the wrong tune and map sensor but it happened so fast my mechanic got caught. It was his used turbo not a brand jew one that he plugged in to help diagnose. I know it’s been a long thread and has gotten confusing.

I had to switch to know it wasn’t the tune. (And Jeff was offline and I couldn’t reach him.). Having a flashzilla has been invaluable.

Plugging in a modern more expensive turbo and blowing that up as well would not have made me happy.

But for the future, I do like how you think! And I will keep that turbo in mind.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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pp520+ 11mm pump will max around 165-170whp on this turbo with aggressive fueling and is definitely pushing your luck reliability wise.
I disagree with this. With hardware and software set up properly this isn't hard on an ALH or a VNT-17. As the OP posted above, this is a great combination that won't cause any durability issues. I (and many others) have run this combo, some for years, without incident. The OP clearly had a hardware problem that went undiagnosed until now, causing the repeated turbo failures. Hopefully he's now found the issue.
 

Judson

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165-170whp on these cars is....200hp?

Gonna load up a new tune today (thanks for the quick turnaround Owain!) and drive carefully back from Fort Collins with a buddy following.

I’ll keep y’all posted. Hopefully there won’t be any more issues for a while!
 

Owain@malonetuning

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I disagree with this. With hardware and software set up properly this isn't hard on an ALH or a VNT-17. As the OP posted above, this is a great combination that won't cause any durability issues. I (and many others) have run this combo, some for years, without incident. The OP clearly had a hardware problem that went undiagnosed until now, causing the repeated turbo failures. Hopefully he's now found the issue.
We're on the same page there, VNT17 is the tried and true upgrade and they're very reliable overall. I just meant with very aggressive fueling, to the point of annoying people around you/getting called in for excessive smoke. If tuned properly it'll be fine, some people compromise reliability though to make excessive smoke.

Was definitely a hardware problem and hopefully it'll be solid now.
 

Nevada_TDI

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Sorry for the very late response, the 1/4" hole was when a boost fitting came loose and thankfully I was watching my VCDS and knew something was amiss.
 

Judson

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Update: running fine so far. Hit the throttle on an on ramp and boost acted normally for a tuned vnt15 with malone stage 3.

Still getting used to the throttle and everything. Weeks after only driving my jeep everything feels different.

A bit early to tell but it feels like the off idle response is fixed. I need to still play with it.

$3,500 in labor, parts, tunes and turbos chasing all of this. Ouch!
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I just meant with very aggressive fueling, to the point of annoying people around you/getting called in for excessive smoke. If tuned properly it'll be fine, some people compromise reliability though to make excessive smoke.
I agree with that. Too much fuel equals boost spikes and too high EGTs. And lousy FE.
 
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