NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

MotoWPK

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Feb 23, 2009
Location
Colorado
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2009 Jetta
As seen here, http://papers.sae.org/2000-01-1918/, and as read elsewhere;

"Typical sulphur compounds do not confer this wear protection themselves rather it is the nitrogen and oxygen containing hetero-compounds that are most important. A complex mixture of polar compounds is found in diesel and some are more active than others. The process of hydrotreating to reduce sulphur levels also destroys some of these natural lubricants."
 

wilcharl

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Northern Virginia
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2010 Jetta TDI BOUGHT BACK 23 NOV 16. Now owner of 2016 Jeep Cherokee
Am I reading the excel spreadsheets right that VW has replaced over 3,000 HPFPs under warranty including one with over 200,000 miles on the clock and several with over 100,000 on the clock along with many of what they determined to be misfuels even outside of the powertrain warranty.
 

plower

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java ny
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2012 TDI Preminum
I am new to this site and got on to specifically to check out what others think of their 2012 Jetta TDI's. I have read through all this data involving the Bosch CP4.1 and CP4.2 pumps and the BS that US fuel is being blamed for very expensive failures. The root cause may be poor fuel standards but engineers certainly know this US standard upfront. This is clearly an engineering design flaw and typical of German engineering arrogance. An engineer has a responsibly to design with a safety margin. It is pretty much a fact that these pump are junk. Ford and Chevy and having the same situation with the dual port pumps.From what i understand just 1% of bio fuel will throw US fuel out the door to meet the lubricity requirement specification of Bosch pumps. VW recommends up to 5% bio and Ford up to 20% and this is asking for problems due to bio reducing lubricity even more..Bottom line these pumps are not rated for the application and need to be replaced with a acceptable design which meets and exceeds US fuel specifications.

The way I see it is I purchased this for the long term. Even is all is good and I get 150K miles on it without and issues. I keep it in very good shape and has no issues. I then get a bad tank of fuel and the HFFP explodes and takes out the entire fuel system. The car is now 8 years old or so. It would then cost more to fix the car than the car is worth. The car is then in excellent shape gets junked because of a bad fuel pump. I see this car and a ticking time bomb! You never know when and where it could just shut down without warning causing you a 10K bill to get home. Whats going to happen a few years from now when the diesel fuel standards get tighter yet. What if they mandate a % of bio as they did with ethanol in gasoline. I personally believe this will eventfully become evident that the new Bosch pumps were just designed cheaply using improper materials for the intended application . For now using additives certainly sounds like a good thing to do. I do not want to be strained away from home for a week while VW is replacing my entire fuel system. This was my first VW and my last if I have to deal with this crap. Even if in design the entire fuel system was not taken out upon failure of the pump I would feel much better about my decision to purchase this vehicle. If after 150K the pump went out and cost me 600.00 for a new no I would have no complaints. This again is piss poor engineering and with today's technology should not permitted.
 

DubFamily

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Location
Swan Point, MD
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2014 BMW 328D xDrive
Most of what you say is fair; except a couple things:

VW REQUIRES (not recommends) less than 5% bio for the CR engines. Not up to; but "No More than".

Also, biodiesel actually improves lubricity, it doesn't reduce the lubricity of diesel. Just 2% biodiesel in a tank of diesel fuel will bring your fuel into spec with what Bosch recommended for the HPFP. 5% is still acceptable to VW, any more than that can possibly void your warranty if you have a failure and they test your fuel. Also, several states already mandate a percentage of biodiesel in their commercial fuel supply.

What you are thinking about is 1% unleaded gasoline contamination (or possibly you are thinking of ethanol) in your diesel; which can and will throw the diesel spec out the window and most likely cause catastrophic damage to your HPFP. Don't ever use diesel if it smells like gasoline.
 
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pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
I am new to this site and got on to specifically to check out what others think of their 2012 Jetta TDI's. I have read through all this data involving the Bosch CP4.1 and CP4.2 pumps and the BS that US fuel is being blamed for very expensive failures. The root cause may be poor fuel standards but engineers certainly know this US standard upfront. This is clearly an engineering design flaw and typical of German engineering arrogance. An engineer has a responsibly to design with a safety margin. It is pretty much a fact that these pump are junk. Ford and Chevy and having the same situation with the dual port pumps.From what i understand just 1% of bio fuel will throw US fuel out the door to meet the lubricity requirement specification of Bosch pumps. VW recommends up to 5% bio and Ford up to 20% and this is asking for problems due to bio reducing lubricity even more..Bottom line these pumps are not rated for the application and need to be replaced with a acceptable design which meets and exceeds US fuel specifications.
The way I see it is I purchased this for the long term. Even is all is good and I get 150K miles on it without and issues. I keep it in very good shape and has no issues. I then get a bad tank of fuel and the HFFP explodes and takes out the entire fuel system. The car is now 8 years old or so. It would then cost more to fix the car than the car is worth. The car is then in excellent shape gets junked because of a bad fuel pump. I see this car and a ticking time bomb! You never know when and where it could just shut down without warning causing you a 10K bill to get home. Whats going to happen a few years from now when the diesel fuel standards get tighter yet. What if they mandate a % of bio as they did with ethanol in gasoline. I personally believe this will eventfully become evident that the new Bosch pumps were just designed cheaply using improper materials for the intended application . For now using additives certainly sounds like a good thing to do. I do not want to be strained away from home for a week while VW is replacing my entire fuel system. This was my first VW and my last if I have to deal with this crap. Even if in design the entire fuel system was not taken out upon failure of the pump I would feel much better about my decision to purchase this vehicle. If after 150K the pump went out and cost me 600.00 for a new no I would have no complaints. This again is piss poor engineering and with today's technology should not permitted.
You have a timing belt replacement due at 120,000. Labor will be negligible at this service to just replace the HPFP if you are concerned.
 

tditom

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Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
....From what i understand just 1% of bio fuel will throw US fuel out the door to meet the lubricity requirement specification of Bosch pumps. VW recommends up to 5% bio ....
No.
1% biodiesel will bring most fuels lubricity up to the level recommended by diesel fuel injection manufacturers and required in the rest of the civilized world. 2% biodiesel would bring raw ULSD up to this standard.

VW allows (not 'recommends') up to 5% biodiesel.

Also note that the ASTM specs for diesel (D2) allow up to 5% biodiesel content without any notification to the user.
 

tditom

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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
You have a timing belt replacement due at 120,000. Labor will be negligible at this service to just replace the HPFP if you are concerned.
Except that you have no idea if the pump you install will be one of the bad ones...:(
 

JBell

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No.
1% biodiesel will bring most fuels lubricity up to the level recommended by diesel fuel injection manufacturers and required in the rest of the civilized world. 2% biodiesel would bring raw ULSD up to this standard.
VW allows (not 'recommends') up to 5% biodiesel.
Also note that the ASTM specs for diesel (D2) allow up to 5% biodiesel content without any notification to the user.
According to VW:
Biodiesel itself does not damage the HPFP, however, collapsed/deteriorated/aged biodiesel can cause deposits inside the HPFP and clog filters, interrupting the lubrication and leading to failure.
 

HarleyGuy

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Location
Charlotte nc
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2006 veetle, 2002 jetta
VW's current stance is: DENY, DENY DENY.
Toyota did the same with their oil-sluded engines. For 8 years. Companies benefit from blaming the customers (didn't change oil often enough; Used wrong fuel) instead of themselves.
 
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bird67

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2014 Touareg TDI*
Pardon the interruption here. My memory is that Toyota not only denied any design issues that caused contributed to sludge AND blamed the consumer, I believe it also refused to offer good will repairs to such engines when they were out of warranty. I have not had a HPFP failure and hope never to have one, but I understand from reading these forums (fora?) that VAG is routinely honoring and covering repairs even when the vehicle is out of warranty. If this is true than VAG's response is very different than was Toyota's.
 

Lightflyer1

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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
At first this wasn't the case IIRC. At first it was deny, blame the consumer, contaminated fuel, not covered by warranty. At some point this changed and most if not all were being covered. I don't know if the possibility of the NHTSA becoming involved had any play in this.
 

GoFaster

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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
Pardon the interruption here. My memory is that Toyota not only denied any design issues that caused contributed to sludge AND blamed the consumer, I believe it also refused to offer good will repairs to such engines when they were out of warranty ... If this is true than VAG's response is very different than was Toyota's.
I know personally of at least one sludged Toyota that was out of warranty in which Toyota paid for a replacement engine, and my understanding is that Toyota replaced many out-of-warranty sludged engines. Same situation - and it is also true that in both cases, people who had the problem early on had a difficult time with it.

I suspect that the only reason for the NHTSA investigation was the complaints filed by the people that VW tried to shaft early on. The early procedure of testing the fuel by seeing if it dissolved a styrofoam cup, was abysmally unscientific.
 

DasTeknoViking

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B4 TDi, A4 R32
I worked for a Lexus/Acura dealer as a tech, if you had oil change receipts you got a free motor by Toyota, ONE at any given mileage. If the car had 150k miles they still did motors...

We used to do ES and RX300s like hot cakes.
 

JBell

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i worked for a lexus/acura dealer as a tech, if you had oil change receipts you got a free motor by toyota, one at any given mileage. If the car had 150k miles they still did motors...
We used to do es and rx300s like hot cakes.

lmao.
 

tditom

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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
It's in their latest declaration to NHTSA that biodiesel can cause damage to the HPFP.
I wouldn't stop short and turn a blind eye to biodiesel not causing damage to the HPFP.
Out of spec biodiesel, or ASTM grade? What percentage biodiesel caused the damage?
 

WutGas?

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Oklahoma City
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The Last Real Jetta Sedan
VW stated that "aged, deteriorated, collapsed" bio diesel could damage the pump. Kinda falls in to the "No $hit" category if you ask me. If you are confident in the quality of the bio you are pumping, no need to worry.
 
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HarleyGuy

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Pardon the interruption here. My memory is that Toyota not only denied any design issues that caused contributed to sludge AND blamed the consumer, I believe it also refused to offer good will repairs to such engines when they were out of warranty.
Don't know VW's response but Toyota VOIDED the warranty rather than replace the engine. That was even on engines with less than 20,000 miles, because they claimed the dealer never changed the oil for the customer. Very poor customer service. (They reversed their decision 8 years later when they started losing class-action lawsuits.)
 
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JBell

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Out of spec biodiesel, or ASTM grade? What percentage biodiesel caused the damage?
I didn't see a specific reference but they reinforce that is why only 5% is allowed. What's funny about this, is internal VW emails tell dealers that levels of up to B20 are acceptable, and will not cause damage. (My dealer forwarded me the email)
 

truman

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Location
columbia,MO,usa
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'05 Passat Variant, Still miss the 03JW
Thread is drifting ....... bottom line is that nothing is new here. Best bet is vw will simply run out the clock, introduce their new tdi and move on.
That's what it looks like to me.
Now if 2micron develops a successful mod to mitigate the damage for the long term, a used CR may be less of a crap shoot.
 

aja8888

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Out of TDI's
And a used CR with a failed hpfp may be a bargain!
I was at Steve Glover's shop (TDI Guy) in Fort Worth all day yesterday and he had an '09 they picked up at auction real cheap with a blown HPFP. They pulled the fuel system apart and cleaned everything and re-assembled it with a new pump.. The car ran fine and was being driven for a few weeks before they sell it. Looks like a reasonable way to go if you blow your pump and VW fails to pick up the bill (which may be the case soon out of warranty).
 

JBell

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Care to post it?
Sure, here is what they sent me:
This is a question answered from a VW website that is for VW employees. I hope this helps some. We had another customer last week state the same to us and the guys in service will tell you, they drive TDI's and use the diesel that is in IL. One service guy told me he prefers Casey's diesel to others. Here at Auffenberg we fill out TDI's up at Circle K.
For our TDI engines: Volkswagen currently recommends that you use standard diesel fuel, or biodiesel blend fuels of up to five percent (B5), purchased from a mainstream retailer through a commercial pump.
“Biodiesel” does not include homemade “bio-fuels” or home brewing, because the production process cannot be controlled in an adequate manner. Fuels which do not meet the ASTM specifications are NOT approved.
Volkswagen is fully aware of the “BioDiesel” matter you speak (states moving towards B20)
Volkswagen and Archer Daniels Midland continue to conduct research regarding the use of biodiesel blend fuels, including higher level blends such as “B20” (20 percent biodiesel, 80 percent petrodiesel), as well as to develop appropriate specifications that will assure the suitability of such fuels for use in our vehicles.
I anticipate dealers will soon see a “letter” of some sort stating the VW position on the use of B20 in those affected states (MN, IL, PA, etc.) I have no idea exactly when to expect the letter, but rest assured that it will be concerning the use of BioDiesel with levels higher than B5.
You understand that I cannot “officially” comment on warranty issues until then….but in my opinion, your TDI customers should not worry.
Until then…please stay tuned and be patient…..there is light (and BioDiesel) at the end of the tunnel!
 

carnotgas

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Location
New York
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2015 Jetta
Injectors?

I was at Steve Glover's shop (TDI Guy) in Fort Worth all day yesterday and he had an '09 they picked up at auction real cheap with a blown HPFP. They pulled the fuel system apart and cleaned everything and re-assembled it with a new pump.. The car ran fine and was being driven for a few weeks before they sell it. Looks like a reasonable way to go if you blow your pump and VW fails to pick up the bill (which may be the case soon out of warranty).
Were they able to reuse the injectors?
 
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