Why is my B4 so uncomfortable?

I had higher expectations for my B4 than have borne out in the ~2 months I've been daily-driving it. I've been spoiled by a BMW, I know, but this Passat reminds me much more of my first car, a 95 Accord that I dumped for being too loud and boring.

Front seats are awful (if I keep it, stay tuned for an E34 seat swap thread). Road noise is horrible - the whole car hums and booms and vibrates. I doubled up doorpanel insulation and all that did was make the doorcards harder to install. It handles well, but this is supposed to be a mid-sized family sedan? That's one step shy of an Audi? It doesn't take bumps well at all - my lowered BMW with 235/45R17 studded snow tires is quieter and more compliant than this thing with stock suspension and 195/70R14 all-season Falkens. Front shocks pass the curb-bounce test. Rears were blown so I replaced them with Monroe OESpectrum (a relatively soft shock from previous experience) - less bounce but just as firm. And there's only one spring pad in the back? Why, "because racecar"?

Are they all this bad, or is there something wrong with mine? Anyone near PDX want to take it for a spin and give me their $.02? If this is normal, I'm moving on to a Metro - if I'm going to daily-drive a tin can, it better cost the same to maintain as one. I have other vehicles for interior room, which as far as I can tell is the B4's only advantage over a Metro or similar.

There's no doubt that b4s are loud. And they are noisier on bumps. Tire selection is important for reducing road noise, and Falkens aren't, in my experience, the best choice. I'd also look at control arm and rear axle bushings for wear, they're add road noise and take away from ride quality.

However, keep in mind that this car was designed in the very early 90s and is now 21 years old. Not sure what you expected, but automotive design has come a long way since then. Comparing it to your BMW which probably cost twice as much when new isn't really fair.

I'm not defending the car. B4s now drive to me like an old car. I enjoy mine, but it's showing its age.

I was expecting something more like an A4 than a contemporary Accord; weren't these supposed to be slightly upmarket from the latter? They don't hold a candle to a Camry, another competitor.

Hell, my 1981 Toyota with solid axles and leaf springs rides better (not as stable/settled but softer on the bumps and better isolation from road roughness).

Falken 912s were quite quiet for the 9 months I got out of them. These are Sinceras, though.

Suspension bushings are worn, but it seems unlikely that they make such a big difference. Still, they need to be changed anyway, so I'll do that before making any decisions.

Is there a softer shock/spring combo I can use?

A4 as in Audi A4? Not going to happen. The B4 is an older, transverse engine front drive platform. It's not going to have the ride or noise isolation of an Audi A4.

How many miles are on the car? Curb bounce test isn't really helpful; if the struts have more than 80-100K on them they're probably done. And IMO Monroe dampers aren't very good.

There are very few shocks available for these cars, and almost no spring alternatives. Bilstein TCs are a little firmer than stock but ride well. I have OE dampers on my car but AFAIK I got the last set in the US, and that was several years ago.

New struts, mounts shocks and mounts, axle bushings, control arm bushings or control arms, and perhaps engine mounts will help. You've not had the car long and it's possible there are a lot of maintenance items related to NVH that were overlooked by the PO.

But you're not going to turn this car into a Mercedes, BMW, or even Audi. If you're that unhappy with it you may want to get out of it now.

Monroe shocks/struts are garbage.................

Monroes (OESpectrum, not the WhateverMatic line) have served me well in the past, but I'm open to other recommendations.

No, I meant A4 as in Mk.4 Golf/Jetta. I remember an A3 I borrowed a few times seemed about as comfortable as my B4. B4 has more room but to me that just means the armrest is further away

157 or 167k on it, but the PO did *zero* maintenance.

I was thinking of adding spring pads and possibly rubber spacers at the struts and maybe even the subframe. But if I'm going through all that, why do it on this car instead of a supermini that gets the same mileage and is a lot cheaper to own? It rides like an Accord but the parts cost as much as for my BMW, and it's just as hard to work on.

Peter is right, these B4 TDIs are simply twenty year old designs, not competitive by any stretch of the imagination. You could change tires, suspension and whatever but you need to be happy behind the wheel or it doesn't matter; which I happen to be with two B4 TDI Passats, for the moment.

Realistically, automotive computer design today is light years ahead of 1995. My two B4 TDIs are rusting away as I type this, but, for the moment, they are simply incredibly reliable, basic transportation appliances. I love them and I keep buying parts from Peter and others globally to keep two running.

But, since I'm an old fart and my wrenching days are numbered, my Plan C would be to look at the 2017 BMW diesels approved by the EPA for USA importation, soon to arrive. Yes, it will be costly, but I get to drive a diesel-engine car, (under warranty), listen to the unique much more powerful engine, and make me happy.

Daimler (Mercedes Benz) may or may not bring more diesels cars into USA (really low passenger car sales) at least according to the Automotive News web site. VW seems to have closed the door for diesel imports to USA.

Life is short moroza, no guarantees whatsoever except you know what. Make yourself happy. Put your B4 on Craigslist if that's what you want and don't look back. Jeff

A4 platform VWs are far ahead of B4s in refinement.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

A4 platform VWs are far ahead of B4s in refinement.

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Worth repeating. The B4 was designed as a more luxurious mk3, but comparing them to a mk4 is only going to cause disappointment. The b4 was basically a facelifted B3, and the B3 was designed in the late 80's. A full 10 years before the mk4. 10 years is a long time for car technology.

^this.

The b4 is a face-lifted b3, which was a derivative (embiggened) mk3 jetta, which had essentially the same underpinnings as a mk2. As above, the mk4 jetta/Golf has the much better pendulum mount system, and scads more options for suspension.

You also admitted that some of your suspension bushings are worn out.

You're driving a car based on 30 year old technology... With the highest nvh engine offered in that platform, with worn suspension bushings. Be realistic with your expectations

+++++ to everyone's comments about old tech.

I think you would be smart to move into the metro, the only good reason to stay with the B4 is if you had some type of loyalty or fanatic mentality (tdiclub hmmmm?). For those of us who have driven them for a while, we know what they are, we like what they look like, what engine is under the hood, and sadly their eccentricities.

You could always put thousands into it and over engineer some aspect of the vehicle to make it enjoyable

If you want to stick with the crazies, you said zero maintenance was done, *zero*. Give the b4 a chance to at least not ride all clapped out and see what it feels like with refreshed suspension. How long do you want to keep it? 50k more miles? 100k ? No it will not make financial sense, but at least then you know what it feels like without 20 year old bits that never got changed from the PO. You could spend a couple hundred and see where it Takes you.

From cheapest easiest to more expensive and more work. I say do the first three for the least expensive and most immediate change to the feel. Then see if you think it's worth it to move on.

-$20 seat rail guides, wobbly seats because of these stupid pieces make your suspension feel even more like crap. Some thread on here about them.

-$30 each front control arm bushing plus pressing into arms. change to OEM or Febi brand. Change to Audi TT for longevity and better feel imo. Check to see how entact rear and fronts are. Rears are $20 and pressing. This could be a big help with low investment. If you want the easiest method, get cheap ass meyle full lower control arm replacements and no need to press in bushings. $75 each but won't last long 40k-80k miles.

-$15-25 each balljoint go OEM,febi,moog.

-$400 struts and shocks and mounts. Bilstein TC seem to be the only replacement worth a damn now. This will cost ya $ and time though

-tires, yours are trash, sincera are not good for keeping noise out.

-$100-200 springs don't know what are for sale out there besides neuspeed that are shorter or HD that are taller in the rear.

-$100-$200 engine motor mounts, good luck with finding OEM, but those last the longest . Febi , corteco, febi-bilstein are good, Black Forest industries sells the next best option with aftermarket stealth mounts. Easy to find but won't last, Meyle, uro

-$75-$150 tie rod ends or full tie rods.

$75-150 Driveshafts no good aftermarket versions except expensive raxles. I'm running a Chinese rebuilt driver side without the hollow core shaft, but at least I'm not spitting grease everywhere anymore. I didn't have time to redo the joints and it Hasn't busted for 20k miles. So I'm fine with that for now. Not one brand I can recommend. GKN Lobro are hard to find, OEM no mo'.

When I bought my B4 it needed a lot of the items listed above, even though it had been pretty carefully maintained during its 250K mile life. And even after all those repairs it isn't as quiet as my MKIV. Not even close.

My B3V is fine on the road, it's old tech but I'm familiar with the platform and that's the primary reason I won't get rid of it or the Mk3, they are essentially the same and inherit much from the Mk2 cars.

Some of your complaints could be due to tire brand / specs or to suspension components. As someone mentioned Monroe (and Gabriel as well) are junk suspension parts, don't waste your money.

The E34 was not in the same bracket as the Passat, never was. IDK what base prices were for E34 in 97 but I would venture a guess that it was double of the Passat, tbh they were not competing for buyers. That said, you'll never get the same efficiency from the E34 either.

As Windex said, "You're driving a car based on 30 year old technology... With the highest nvh engine offered in that platform, with worn suspension bushings. Be realistic with your expectations."

Love my car, I think it's pretty quiet, and I like that I can go 1000 miles without having to worry about filling the tank.

Steve

Steve, if you drive a B4 and an A3, you might think they're quiet. But get in a MKIV (or, heaven forbid, a MKVII) and you'll realize how loud the B4 (and A3) really is.

And you're correct that a B4 Passat will never compare to an E34. Similarly, I find my '93 300D (launched in '86, so an older design) is far quieter than my B4. But it cost $47K in 1993. Hardly comparable.

Driving old cars is not cheap if you try to catch up with maintenance, as others have said. It takes money and effort. Maybe more of both than makes much real sense. As my better half tells me - just buy a new Camry, drive it and save a bunch of money. But I like my toys and I like knowing I can drive the B4V from San Diego to Nova Scotia round trip with no problems.

john.jackson9213 said:

Driving old cars is not cheap if you try to catch up with maintenance, as others have said. It takes money and effort. Maybe more of both than makes much real sense. As my better half tells me - just buy a new Camry, drive it and save a bunch of money. But I like my toys and I like knowing I can drive the B4V from San Diego to Nova Scotia round trip with no problems.

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Didn't you blow a head gasket at the start of your trip to the last TDIFest?

My '15 GSW is getting detailed today, as I'm never happy with how dealers prep cars. I got it to the detailer late and he's keeping it overnight. A friend and fellow club member stores her cosmetically pristine (albeit dusty) B4V at our warehouse. It's been sitting for a few months, so I charged the battery and drove it home tonight, 15 miles, mostly highway.

It's a warm day and I had the sunroof open, but as I was driving I thought of this thread and couldn't help but reflect on how nicely these cars drive, despite being 20 years old. Keep in mind I drove the latest version of a TDI wagon to work, and drove home in the oldest version available in this country. Although they clearly are different, in many ways I prefer the B4. Seats (GLX in this car) are better, visibility is far better, response to the accelerator is better, I like the steering better. Her car needs struts, and it doesn't get driven much (last fueling was seven, that's right, seven years ago), but it's still a very pleasant car.

Does it rival something new in NVH? No. Is it as good as expensive luxury cars of the same vintage? No. But when set up right and maintained these cars are very nice.

john.jackson9213 said:

Driving old cars is not cheap if you try to catch up with maintenance, as others have said. It takes money and effort. Maybe more of both than makes much real sense. As my better half tells me - just buy a new Camry, drive it and save a bunch of money. But I like my toys and I like knowing I can drive the B4V from San Diego to Nova Scotia round trip with no problems.

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"But I like my toys"

IndigoBlueWagon said:

... I thought of this thread and couldn't help but reflect on how nicely these cars drive, despite being 20 years old. Keep in mind I drove the latest version of a TDI wagon to work, and drove home in the oldest version available in this country. Although they clearly are different, in many ways I prefer the B4. Seats (GLX in this car) are better, visibility is far better, response to the accelerator is better, I like the steering better.

Does it rival something new in NVH? No. Is it as good as expensive luxury cars of the same vintage? No. But when set up right and maintained these cars are very nice.

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+1. Well stated.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Didn't you blow a head gasket at the start of your trip to the last TDIFest?

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Yes, that was going to be the engine for my Jeep Comanche TDI conversion! That one went to parts last year(?)

My original White B4V is still sucking money - currently the A/C evaporator needs to be replaced. Rides well on Koni Shocks and Michelin 15 inch tires.

You guys are swaying me to get out of B4s...

IDB, is there something different about GLX seats? I have them in the wagon, and I noticed they feel different than B4 TDI seats. I always felt as if I sat lower.

-Todd

Hi gang,

Do you all have opinions on the factory B4 cloth seats versus the B4 leather seats for comfort?

The standard (GLS) B4 seats are more of a basic seat, with a fairly flat bottom, not much side bolsters. The GLX seats were more of a bucket. But I am not sure that applies to all years.

FWIW, the "B4" Passat, which came out in 1995, is essentially just a facelifted B3 Passat, which came out in 1988, and was itself based on the A2 Golf, which dates back to 1984 (1985 for us). So when we are viewing the TDI B4s, you are talking about a car that had underpinnings that were already over a decade old when the car was new. The basic engine design dates all the way back to 1974.

However, that basic layout, a three-box sedan or two-box wagon, with big windows, simple lines, lots of interior volume, easy to see out of, easy to get in and out of, and a general simple and sturdy layout, is often what makes them so good. Couple in an engine that can deliver 45+ MPGs without much trouble, they make for a rather unique car in this country. I wish I would have kept mine. I actually liked the seats a lot, since they had both fore and aft independent height adjusters. I could really stretch out in it, and so could rear seat passengers. It was bigger inside than my B5, even though the B5 is many orders of magnitude more refined and nicer to drive (a platform that was new in 1995, so a whole decade newer).

In some respects, the NMS Passat returned to a more basic simpler, bigger, decontented layout that the B3 and B4 were.

Cut the cat and muffler out, straight pipe + Larger injectors and enjoy even more noise!

Idontknowhowtodothis said:

Cut the cat and muffler out, straight pipe + Larger injectors and enjoy even more noise!

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I am not a fan of loud noise! If you just want noise - get one of those tin can tailpipes that are so popular with rice racers.

You can literally double the stock horsepower without getting rid of the cat and the muffler at all. See my dyno results at the front wheels.

The EuroTuneing 6 speed conversion dropped the engine noise WAY down on the interstate/freeways without any loss of performance because I still have stock like first 5 gears and 15 inch tires.

john.jackson9213 said:

I am not a fan of loud noise! If you just want noise - get one of those tin can tailpipes that are so popular with rice racers.

You can literally double the stock horsepower without getting rid of the cat and the muffler at all. See my dyno results at the front wheels.

The EuroTuneing 6 speed conversion dropped the engine noise WAY down on the interstate/freeways without any loss of performance because I still have stock like first 5 gears and 15 inch tires.

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Does cutting out the suitcase and cat change it at all? I diddnt think it would to be honest. Don't mind me. I'm just trolling, but now that I have someone's attention;

Im really trying to improve efficiency and response as well. 6 speed sounds pretty nice but I need to get a damn replacement for the air inlet pipe that goes to the turbo on my 1z. It split

I've sat in a bunch of B3 and B4 cars over the years, at one time a semi-local JY I worked for had 6 B4's and 2 B3's. I prefer the B3 seats over the B4, I think the adjustment mechanism from the earlier cars is better and the velour fabric is definitely more substantial.

I know that elsewhere the B3 (in GT form) got seats that were more like the sport seats in the Mk3 but I've tried those and they have fewer adjustments (under knee support) than I need. I don't mind that the B3 seats I have are not sporty.

As for suspension it would be more fair to compare the B3/4 with that of the BMW E28 or E30 in terms of components and sophistication.

As for the exhaust sound, I like to be able to hear the engine so I know if something is wrong. It doesn't annoy me very much, I have a big resonator in the tunnel and a VR6 rear muffler with no suitcase and I'm very happy with it. I can occasionally hear the turbo whistle just a little.

Steve

kooyajerms said:

+++++ to everyone's comments about old tech.

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I see your comments and raise you a 1981 Toyota 4x4 with leaf springs, solid axles, and all-terrain tires. It's quieter and rides softer (albeit less steady) despite the suspension dating back to the 19th century. E34 footwork is shared with the E28, which was designed in the late 70's.

-$30 each front control arm bushing

-$15-25 each balljoint go OEM,febi,moog.

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Balljoints are ok, but good call on the bushings. Whether I sell this car or keep it, the rubber needs refreshed, for which I just bought a 20-ton press. For the bushings, I'm inclined to go with OEM based on experience with the E34 (they don't take kindly to aftermarket suspension rubber). Thoughts? On Moog specifically, since I can get a good price for them?

-$400 struts and shocks and mounts. Bilstein TC seem to be the only replacement worth a damn now. This will cost ya $ and time though

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This? Bilstein 22045768? 70/ea shipped

-tires, yours are trash, sincera are not good for keeping noise out.

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Seems plausible. I've got something else (don't remember what) on the back so I'll try rotating. I got the tires because the old ones were destroyed (see: PO maintenance) and I needed something cheap in a pinch.

-$100-$200 engine motor mounts, good luck with finding OEM, but those last the longest . Febi , corteco, febi-bilstein are good, Black Forest industries sells the next best option with aftermarket stealth mounts. Easy to find but won't last, Meyle, uro

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Engine NVH is acceptable. My problem is road NVH, primarily.

-$75-$150 tie rod ends or full tie rods.

$75-150 Driveshafts

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Hard to believe these'll make it quieter. At any rate one tierod is new and everything else (except rubber) is tight.

Steve Addy said:

As for suspension it would be more fair to compare the B3/4 with that of the BMW E28 or E30 in terms of components and sophistication.

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As overall cars, that's a fair comparison. As far as suspension tuning specifically, both are more complicated and have a higher sum of ride and handling than the B4, mine anyway.

In short... I'll address tires and control arms, and check back about NVH then, before deciding whether the B4 is or isn't for me. Meanwhile, anyone near PDX want to show me a good example of theirs, or drive mine and give their opinion?

He came back!

-Since you have the press, get oem or lemforder or febi branded front control arm bushings. same for the rears if you want to mess with those (usually a non issue)

-Yeah get a good set on there and see how you feel about noise. These VW's like to wear the inner rears and cause cupping because of their lack of adjustment.

-I mentioned tie rods and the seat rail guides just because of slop. The road transmitting to your steering wheel or your seats can make things seem a lot worse than they actually are. When you take a corner and your chair sends you further out on the roll, it's a cheap fix to stiffen up the feel of it all. Mine made a difference.

-I'm no longer in the know on struts and shocks, I'm running Koni Reds and they are NLA.

-A bad driveshaft/cv joint can definitely make some unnecessary NVH issues. But yeah take a look before replacing anything there.

Lemförder did not come up in my searches, but now that I specifically looked for it, their PN 2535201 looks right. But only in Europe. This is a reputable brand that makes a lot of BMW rubber, and is often the only choice for quality in that application... so why is it half the price of OEM VW (~20 for Lem shipped from Europe vs. 30-50 for OEM from US dealers)? Still Searching for forum threads on people's experiences with different brands, but if you've got a link handy (along the lines of "I used Brand X bushings and they blew up after a month" or "I used Brand Y and five years later they're just like OEM except a third the price")...