Ford's turn in the dieselgate spotlight

Now it's Ford's turn in the spotlight and class actions.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ck-owners-claiming-diesel-engines-were-rigged

I don’t believe it and think it’llgo like the GM Duramax lawsuit

I hope the lawsuit pisses the right people off who eventually attack the epa’s overbearingly biast emmissions laws towards our beloved diesel sector.

According to this article and several others I've read lately, all the dieselhate blame is being pushed squarely on CARB. The EPA seems to have given up all power and is just a CARB Parrot.

Interesting read

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/FordEmissions.pdf

Here is the filing. $8400 is referenced as the loss due to being hoodwinked into buying a diesel vs. gas Ford truck.

They still got 800+ lbft of torque with that $8400, compared to 400 with the gas. So being tricked into buying a diesel doesn't sound quite right...

All these lawsuits will never fetch a single dime for the owners. May be this will fill the pockets of the class lawyers. VW's case was truly an exception, in a sense that we were able to make some money and heck even some are still not satisfied. Some of the younger crowd of this forum is yet to know about the fallacies of our justice system.

saggii said:

All these lawsuits will never fetch a single dime for the owners. May be this will fill the pockets of the class lawyers. VW's case was truly an exception, in a sense that we were able to make some money and heck even some are still not satisfied. Some of the younger crowd of this forum is yet to know about the fallacies of our justice system.

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The FCA lawsuit already has them in negotiations for a fix w money going to owners. All the ecodiesels dodge trucks and jeeps.

Motodude said:

The FCA lawsuit already has them in negotiations for a fix w money going to owners. All the ecodiesels dodge trucks and jeeps.

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You got a link on that?

I really need to get another diesel in the stable before they are banned. I got my 4 cyl Sprinter right before those got banned.

Diesel F150 and Silverado 1500 are adding to the mix, which is good, but who knows for how long, and the prices are pretty nuts. Still nice to see the other two of the Local 3 adding diesel half ton trucks to their lineup.

I've given up on any new diesel from Volkswagen. That ship has sailed, and sank. And their gas 4 cyl engines now are abysmal in the durability/reliability department (although the court is still out on the Jetta S' 1.4L, I doubt it will be as tough as the old 2.slo it replaced).

saggii said:

All these lawsuits will never fetch a single dime for the owners. May be this will fill the pockets of the class lawyers. VW's case was truly an exception, in a sense that we were able to make some money and heck even some are still not satisfied. Some of the younger crowd of this forum is yet to know about the fallacies of our justice system.

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So I found the website for the FCA lawsuit, which lets you read all of the court documents. Interesting line of reasoning from the Plaintiffs' class lawyers:

"It's, as it indicates, to prove
economic loss, you use a damages analysis.
There are a number of aspects to that. There's the
premium that was paid for what wasn't delivered.
There's the delta between the utility and value of what
you bought, and what you actually got.
And you could also say from a reasonable-consumer
standpoint, I had a choice in the marketplace. I was shopping
for trucks or SUVs. If I had known that about this SUV, I
would have put all of my money elsewhere. I wouldn't have
bought this vehicle, at all.
So, you know, you're not getting what you paid
for. You're not getting what you wanted. You paid too much
for it. You got something."
--------------
I don't follow the line of reasoning. I am happy I got close to $10,000 from VW/Audi, but was that my loss? No. What did I lose? Once the fix is put in, I will lose 1 or 2 mpg? Is that worth $10,000. Are VW/Audi owners receiving extra compensation in the form of a penalty to VW/Audi?

One could just as easily argue they got MORE than what they paid for, and MORE than what they expected, since the performance of the vehicle actually exceeded their expectations.

oilhammer said:

One could just as easily argue they got MORE than what they paid for, and MORE than what they expected, since the performance of the vehicle actually exceeded their expectations.

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Exactly. Reasons I bought diesel.
1. Higher mileage (still true even after fix- my gasoline Q5 averaged 22 mpg, my diesel 29-31 (29 probably after fix).
2. Higher towing capacity (not affected)
3. Better driving experience (likely not affected)
4. Overall better engine (in my humble opinion) that lasts longer. My father had a 1978 VW rabbit that went for 380,000 miles before he sold it to his mechanic.

Not much of the above changes that is worth nearly $10,000. But if they are giving out free money, I ain't going to refuse it.

It would be different if you could just pay the difference for the engine choice but they all make you take a better package or add-ins to get the diesel. Of course some of the things are why you want the diesel in the first place. Such as GM making you take the towing package in the Colorado/Canyon with the diesel. At least with the Colorado you have the choice of the parking sensors and bliss.

GM/Chevy now offer at 1.6L in their Terrain/Equinox. The same engine in their Cruz. 1.6L--***? One reviewer described the acceleration as "glacial." And for "cooling reasons" the tow capacity is LOWER than their 2.0L gasoline engine at 1500 pounds. The only thing going for the Equinox/Terrain diesel is highway mileage at 38-39.

At the Detroit auto show, GM also introduced the 1500 diesel. From the interview, it sounds like they are killing the 4.3l V6 gasser option and replacing it with the 3l diesel.

It is subjective, but I bet the ALH would be given the same "glacial" acceleration description, yet they all seem to have no trouble cruising along with traffic.

I think a lot of the auto reviewers are car guys, and car guys tend to skew their opinions towards power and little else. If you want to win the race, buy a fast car. If you just want to finish and do so with a minimal amount of fuel, buy the diesel. The Chevy dealer will have a Corvette on the sales floor right next to the Equinox, and a stripper Spark right next to that. Different strokes for different folks.

My Sprinter (which could swallow an Equinox whole) makes do just fine with a 2.1L 4 cyl diesel. And it cruises along at 80 easily and returns 25 MPG doing so.

In my 10 years of driving the ALH, I probably only had a handful of circumstances where I wanted/needed more power. Most of those were my fault of not thinking about the car I was driving. I have to adjust my driving behavior when I get into my daughter's Corolla too.

oilhammer said:

And their gas 4 cyl engines now are abysmal in the durability/reliability department (although the court is still out on the Jetta S' 1.4L, I doubt it will be as tough as the old 2.slo it replaced).

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Common on now, the ship still hasn't sailed on the Gen3 EA888 1.8T, I got my fingers crossed for 1-200k trouble free miles.

Granted nothing will beat a 2.0 with simplicity.

740GLE said:

Common on now, the ship still hasn't sailed on the Gen3 EA888 1.8T, I got my fingers crossed for 1-200k trouble free miles.

Granted nothing will beat a 2.0 with simplicity.

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My friends at Volkswagen report they are already having issues.

And as I said before, the plastic oil pan is VERY fragile. You do not need any field testing to know that.

We'll, I'm still keeping my head in the sand. I have heard of one balance shaft seal issue and one or two turbo failures. Nothings perfect (except for the 2.0).

As for the oil pan, not being stupid can prevent 90% of those issues. I have a little more insurance with the OEM glass plastic belly plate and slightly taller suspension, even more so with winter tires being 205-65-16 vs the summer 205-55-17.

Ring washout is the big one, which, if you do not know what that is, you won't know how to deal with it let alone take steps to avoid it. Not a "big" deal, but it does cause a lot of tows.

The other is the oil pump control system (these use a variable displacement oil pump, like other VAG engines now).

Some of these has been addressed with software changes, so that's good. And the newest stuff may already have the later software, but Volkswagen is weird like that. They will issue a TSB for a problem, outline steps to fix the problem, but then continue to build cars with the known problem. The CBEA/CJAA intercooler icing is a perfect example of that. There were people who had that problem, got the TSB and the cold weather kit installed, yet SEVERAL YEARS later, they were STILL building the cars for sale here without those parts already on the car.

The trade publication Der Fix has had some good info on the EA888 engines. Nothing on the diesels anymore. I do not even think they had anything on the emissions fix for them, despite the fact that there are a lot of those cars having that performed.

oilhammer said:

Ring washout is the big one, which, if you do not know what that is, you won't know how to deal with it let alone take steps to avoid it. Not a "big" deal, but it does cause a lot of tows.

The other is the oil pump control system (these use a variable displacement oil pump, like other VAG engines now).

Some of these has been addressed with software changes, so that's good. And the newest stuff may already have the later software, but Volkswagen is weird like that. They will issue a TSB for a problem, outline steps to fix the problem, but then continue to build cars with the known problem. The CBEA/CJAA intercooler icing is a perfect example of that. There were people who had that problem, got the TSB and the cold weather kit installed, yet SEVERAL YEARS later, they were STILL building the cars for sale here without those parts already on the car.

The trade publication Der Fix has had some good info on the EA888 engines. Nothing on the diesels anymore. I do not even think they had anything on the emissions fix for them, despite the fact that there are a lot of those cars having that performed.

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Can you elaborate on the ring washout problem and how to deal with it? Thanks!

oilhammer said:

Ring washout is the big one, which, if you do not know what that is, you won't know how to deal with it let alone take steps to avoid it. Not a "big" deal, but it does cause a lot of tows.

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It's a daily, I don't really beat on in but I also don't hypermile it, I get on boost at traffic lights, I'm rarely WOT for more than 30 seconds. Hopefully my conservative/yet assertive approach does me well.

NAZ TDI said:

Can you elaborate on the ring washout problem and how to deal with it? Thanks!

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Ring washout is a cylinder flooding situation, only in gasoline engines, where when the circumstances are just right, the rings will stick in their lands in such a way as the engine will have no compression, and thus will not start.

It happens generally in cold weather, if the engine is started and run for a very short period and shut off. Then later, when you go to start it, it just cranks like someone removed the spark plugs.

In order to overcome this, you need to floorboard the accelerator and force the ECU into a "clear flood" mode that most of them have, and crank the engine for a bit to clear the cylinders and get some oil sprayed/splashed up on to the cylinder walls again and free up the rings so that compression returns and the engine will usually cough and sputter and smoke and come back to life.

Some cars are really bad about this, it was far more common with older early EFI vehicles, but lately some newer cars (mostly Nissans, from my experience) run into this. My '96 Odyssey did it once to me, too.

In some extreme cases, you need to remove the spark plugs, clean or replace them, air out the cylinders with some compressed air, dribble a tiny bit of motor oil down the plug holes, crank the engine around a few times, put the plugs back in, and start the engine.

So if you start the engine in the cold, don't shut it off after 60 seconds and let it sit again for a few hours. That is *usually* the scenario that causes this.

Of course, the grand daddy of all of this situation, albeit called something different for obvious reasons, is the rotary engines. In their case, it isn't rings sticking since they do not have rings, but the apex seals. When RX7s were common, we would get a handful of those towed in every winter... sometimes the same car several times... and it was a bit more involved to get them freed up. Usually floorboarded cranking was not enough, and spark plug removal was needed. The rampant [normal] oil consumption of those engines made it worse, as the plugs were often so oil fouled that they couldn't provide the necessary gap for a spark to jump across anyway. And the smoke clouds those cars made when coming back to life was always a thrill, LOL.

oilhammer said:

but lately some newer cars (mostly Nissans, from my experience) run into this. My '96 Odyssey did it once to me, too.

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I was a tech at a Nissan dealership from about 93 to 95 and this was quite common even back then. Happened in any weather as well. Always had to change the oil as well because the customers would try to start them forever before having it towed and the oil pan would be full of gas.

Locoelectrician said:

I was a tech at a Nissan dealership from about 93 to 95 and this was quite common even back then. Happened in any weather as well. Always had to change the oil as well because the customers would try to start them forever before having it towed and the oil pan would be full of gas.

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Ah, so you experienced the wonderful Altima roll out like we did.

The 1992 Stanza was a boring, but decent car. The 1993 Altima that replaced it was a steaming pile of garbage in comparison. That was the beginning of Nissan's fall from grace. They went from being Toyota's equal (they were actually BIGGER than Toyota at one time) to being scooped up and "saved" by the French. The French.

You probably saw the Nissan Van buybacks too.

oilhammer said:

Ah, so you experienced the wonderful Altima roll out like we did.
The 1992 Stanza was a boring, but decent car. The 1993 Altima that replaced it was a steaming pile of garbage in comparison. That was the beginning of Nissan's fall from grace. They went from being Toyota's equal (they were actually BIGGER than Toyota at one time) to being scooped up and "saved" by the French. The French.
You probably saw the Nissan Van buybacks too.

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I got there right after the van buyback, but the guys told me they got put up on the lift, and holes drilled in the gas tank, oil pan, and trans. I was there however for the maxima injector recall that had nearly 200 customers in enterprise rental cars for MONTHS, and when I left, we were dealing with rust on new maximas and all pathfinder engines were recalled due to no oil hole drilled in rods. They were putting in short blocks left and right. Left there and went railroading where I get to play with the big diesels.

oilhammer said:

Ring washout is a cylinder flooding situation, only in gasoline engines, (/snip)

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Thanks for the tidbit of knowledge, I'll keep it in the back of my mind.