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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD)

VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

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Old May 7th, 2019, 21:56   #1
kellarj93
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Default 1.9 TDI ALH code 17656


Hello everyone

8 months ago, I got a "Emissions Workshop" warning in my dashboard with symptoms being extremely slow acceleration and high fuel consumption though no starting problem. I took it to VW, where they told me that the timing belt had to be changed and the injector pump's timing was not right (code 17656), though they were able to fix it. On my way home, the light came up again, but I couldn't turn around as I was late for job so I kept driving. After I was finished at job, I tried to start the car buy it wouldn't start. It cranked and cranked and cranked and finally started after 10-15 seconds of cranking (I know, it was really moronic as lots of white smoke was coming out the tailpipe). So I parked the car and later in the month had it's timing belt, V-belt and glow plugs changed along with engine oil change. The problem was still there, it would crank but not start, it did start with starter gas, but the car struggled a lot at high speeds. None of the workshops used VCDS as they used a software from Bosch, which only showed the quantity being injected, not the timing.



After months of self-learning about the problem and about the car, I went out and had the starting problem diagnosed, which was found to be misaligned timing belt and again! code 17656. The problem was STILL there. So I went out and asked to rent a VCDS and was hopefully able to find one. So We met today, sat in the car and booted up the VCDS. Upon looking at the timing we saw that the timing on injector pump was way too much advanced (it was meant to be around 60, but it was at 210, look at picture 1 where there is a straight vertical yellow line) that we had to retard it all the way down to 70. Now here was a problem. Everytime we adjusted the timing a tiny bit, trying to get from 70 to 60, it would fall down to zero. And when we tried to get it up to 60, it would suddenly climb to 120 (yes, we did try to move it as little as possible, but wasn't much help).



At last we gave up at timing = 69, though the warning light would still come on, but at least the car was accelerating much better and could easily get up to speed but the fuel consumption was still high. I did eventually found out that the three bolts around the 22 mm nut are meant to be used only once as they're stretchable so those bolts could be the reason why the timing went advancing while running.



So here is my question. Is there a fault with the injector pump? or the 22 mm nut because of the three 13 mm bolts? I do know that there are 13 ,mm bolts that are reusable, but where can I find them? And how can I reduce the fuel consumption (it used to do 5.2 - 5.8 L / 100 km, but now its doing 9 L / 100 km and yes it's and 01M automatic with 210000 km on it which I am swapping it for 02M DRW manual) because it's not getting economical to drive it now. What shall I do? I have already spent quite a lot on that problem without any success. Shall I just go ahead and change the injector pump or shall I try new non-stretchable 13 mm bolts and try to correct the timing?
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Old May 8th, 2019, 05:04   #2
CtG
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Just out of curiosity, have you looked for excessive air in the fuel?
While I would doubt it to be the whole problem, you may be drawing air with the fuel. Check your thermostatic tee and fuel filter while you are inspecting the rest. Maybe consider a Diesel Purge treatment as well before continuing?
Just some thoughts.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 13:39   #3
kellarj93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CtG View Post
Just out of curiosity, have you looked for excessive air in the fuel?
While I would doubt it to be the whole problem, you may be drawing air with the fuel. Check your thermostatic tee and fuel filter while you are inspecting the rest. Maybe consider a Diesel Purge treatment as well before continuing?
Just some thoughts.
Sorry, I forgot to mention that I have also changed the fuel filter and the car is filled with HVO100 and I used STP Diesel injection cleaner (I have ordered Diesel Purge as well). Checked the system today, nothing troubling as I can see. I am going to replace the three 13 mm bolts around 22 mm nut with non-stretchable bolts before I adjust the timing again. I may have to use vagcom + hammer mod to reduce the IQ. Will see if that works.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 17:25   #4
jackfolstam
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The non-reusable bolts are pointy. The reusable ones are flat on the end.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 17:57   #5
CtG
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Also typically the reusable ones are gold in color, the non a bluish-green
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Old May 8th, 2019, 19:27   #6
kellarj93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfolstam View Post
The non-reusable bolts are pointy. The reusable ones are flat on the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CtG View Post
Also typically the reusable ones are gold in color, the non a bluish-green
Excellent! I bought 9 of the reusable bolts from the VW dealer ( i didn't knew if they were reusable or not ) I will be trying to replace them on friday as I confirmed that the 3 bolts in my car are indeed one time use only.

Last edited by kellarj93; May 8th, 2019 at 20:03.
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Old May 12th, 2019, 14:34   #7
kellarj93
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Update:

TLDR: The three new bolts didn't helped at all. Even with them sitting tight and getting the timing right 4 times, I couldn't get it. After 5 mins of driving, the engine light would come back on and the timing was advanced to 255, BUT the bolt itself never moved at all. I don't know what's causing this, but I am considering getting a new pump because I cant pay 50€ every time to rent a VCDS, unless I get some ideas from you guys.

Long version:

We started the day by changing the bolts and trying to get a middle position. After a few attempts, we got the timing down to 53 (from 255) and the VCDS showed "Dead on!". We went out for a drive, and logged inn to VCDS to confirm the timing. When we entered "group 000", the engine started to stutter towards being shutting down, spitting white smoke from the exhaust. The timing had advanced again to 255 while the bolt was still where it was positioned.



We then checked the fuel injected quantity which was supposed to be 3-5 mg / str. It was showing in the range of 9 - 11. We tried to lower the IQ by VCDS, but we couldn't do it at all. I didn't went for the hammer mod as I am a newbie with car components.



In addition I also found out that the previous owner had tackled with the car's odometer, It was showing 211000 km when it actually has done 261000 km.

I have added pictures to a other tdi site (briskoda.net), see if you guys can see the deviations.
https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topi...on-19-tdi-alh/
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Old May 14th, 2019, 11:11   #8
kellarj93
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Bump! Any help on diagnosing the problem?
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Old May 14th, 2019, 15:07   #9
kellarj93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobnOH View Post
Something is moving. The IP pulley boss? Big nut, it should look undisturbed. Cam sprocket? Crank pulley? That would be unusual. Or belt is so loose it can skip over teeth?
Seems you're able to set time, Make some marks on those various pieces, see what's moving. But BE CAREFULL, what's been happening may have the engine out of basic time (TDC, cam slot/lobes aligned, pump pin hole aligned).
Had the timing belt checked and corrected. Everything's in order. Still have no idea. Part of me wants to tear apart the IP and clean it. But I'd rather get an another pump instead of throwing time and money on it.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 08:00   #10
Nevada_TDI
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A while back there were a lot of the "255 degree" issues with the VE pumps. The problem is not the timing belt, nor is it the pump going bad.To the best of my recall, there is a fuse blown somewhere that is causing it, or a wiring short that does not give a CEL.

Before you pull your hair out, pull and check with a VM every fuse in the fuse block, one at a time. If I remember where the answer is, I will post it here.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 11:43   #11
Nevada_TDI
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First thing make sure the case pressure valve has not opened up.



I just got off of the phone with the injection pump builders I deal with, and here is what they said: "It could be one of these two things, or both, with the timing set at mechanical zero, turn off the engine unplug injector #3, check with voltmeter to see if resistance is around 90 ohms. Leave #3 unplugged and start engine and read timing numbers again, if timing is still at 255, plug injector #3 back in and start again to verify 255 degree timing issue. Here is the more difficult solution: if the timing advance solenoid does not have voltage, or solenoid is bad, timing will read 255 degrees. If solenoid has voltage timing will be under control. I still want to say it is a fuse somewhere, or God forbid there is air at the solenoid piston causing the pressure not to rise to control timing advance.
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2001 Jetta GL TDI, Tinted, Vented, No Kitty, EGR-ectomy, TDTuning, HIFLO .216's, TurboLabAmerica Hybrid 15-17/56, VCDS Hex+CAN, S-B Daily Driver 2 Clutch, DG Short Shifter, Frostheater, Baldwin Fuel Filter, Koni Orange, New Paint. Previous Diesel: 1983 Rabbit Diesel

Last edited by Nevada_TDI; May 15th, 2019 at 11:46.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 12:40   #12
BobnOH
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Seems I completely misread the OP and made a bad comment.
Upon actually reading the thing, I wonder if the basic timing was correct before fine tuning. The reading just dropping out like that makes me think wire. Pretty common on this vintage.
Ross Tech wiki has some notes
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Old May 15th, 2019, 14:36   #13
malibuz16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada_TDI View Post
First thing make sure the case pressure valve has not opened up.



I just got off of the phone with the injection pump builders I deal with, and here is what they said: "It could be one of these two things, or both, with the timing set at mechanical zero, turn off the engine unplug injector #3, check with voltmeter to see if resistance is around 90 ohms. Leave #3 unplugged and start engine and read timing numbers again, if timing is still at 255, plug injector #3 back in and start again to verify 255 degree timing issue. Here is the more difficult solution: if the timing advance solenoid does not have voltage, or solenoid is bad, timing will read 255 degrees. If solenoid has voltage timing will be under control. I still want to say it is a fuse somewhere, or God forbid there is air at the solenoid piston causing the pressure not to rise to control timing advance.
Where do you go for the IP work??
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Old May 15th, 2019, 20:30   #14
Nevada_TDI
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DFIS, Portland. Mark is the owner and an amazing guy and so are all the members of his staff. Even before I spent money there, they took my calls and answered my questions, and were over-the-top helpful.
I also had them mount and balance my HIFLO .216 nozzles on my injector bodies, and over a year later my injector balance is still perfect.


Read this: https://www.myturbodiesel.com/thread...de-17656.9897/
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2001 Jetta GL TDI, Tinted, Vented, No Kitty, EGR-ectomy, TDTuning, HIFLO .216's, TurboLabAmerica Hybrid 15-17/56, VCDS Hex+CAN, S-B Daily Driver 2 Clutch, DG Short Shifter, Frostheater, Baldwin Fuel Filter, Koni Orange, New Paint. Previous Diesel: 1983 Rabbit Diesel

Last edited by Nevada_TDI; May 15th, 2019 at 20:40.
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