Stand alone TDI, what is necessary?

Fiat500Baja

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Hi, newbe here and am shopping for a 96-2003 tdi car as a donor for my project. ..what is the difference between the 96-98 and the 99-2003?...I was told that I will need to use the dash in my swap cuz the ecu communicates with the dash...is this true? ...I'm installing a TDI into a baja chassis. ..I already bought a aftermarket GPS speedo with a built-in tach. ..was planning on calling fast forward automotive for the tach conversion. ...I'm learning this stuff here on this forum...just wanting to know what parts I will need to salvage from the donor vehicle.

As stated in my introduction post, I'm looking to do a stage 3 setup, something around 180hp tune. ..also, where do you find the 4 bar map sensor and did the early TDI'S have one?...just thinking ahead for future power adders.

Thanks in advance...I will have more questions later on I'm sure.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Two very different engines, two different families. Don't really share much of any parts, but the basic idea is the same. VE style pump, belt driven SOHC, inline 4 cyl with 88mm bore spacing.... that is about it.

What transmission are you planning to use? Because any 180hp TDI would be making in the neighborhood of 300+ tq, and would quickly turn any 001, 002, 091 VAG transaxle to a silvery pile of goo in short order.
 

Fiat500Baja

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The tranny is a built 002 , welded 3rd and 4th gears, HD 4:13.1 R&P and will be installing a torque bias diff...I am aware of the limitations of the 002 but the guy at Weddle said as long as I'm not dumping the clutch I'll be okay. ..the 002 should handle the stage 3 setup. ..that is why 160-180 hp is all I'm looking for now. ..later plans for a stronger trans is in the future but don't want to redo my entire chassis for new trans.

Is the 99-2003 a better choice? ...those years seems to be more plentiful on Craigslist than the earlier ones.

My plan is to find the donor car, have my brothers shop do a complete overhaul on the engine, then drive it to CA where my project buggy is, then take it to a shop for the stage 3 tune and upgrades.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
These use a Bosch EDC15 system, the pump is an electronic controlled mechanical device.

You'd be better served with an 091 trans. Suprised Weddle even bothered with the 002, actually.

But yes, if driven carefully and the wheels never leave the ground, it should be OK.

The ALH is a superior engine than the 1Z/AHU it replaced. Clean slate design, more or less. New in 1998... previous TDIs were based on an engine from 1974.
 

Fiat500Baja

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Thanks oilhammer...the 091 is twice the cost of the 002 and the main shaft on the 091 is the weak link. ..the 002 I already had redone but now am sending it back to get the new R&P and the stronger diff...for the cost of a 091 I can build 2 002 trannies. ...all the guts are the same as the type 1 bug, just a beefier case. ..when I get an extra 12k I'll upgrade to a stronger tranny from Weddle that can handle the torque. ..this is why I'm stopping at the 180hp mark, the 002 can handle 300 ft lbs if driven respectively.
 

oilhammer

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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Thanks oilhammer...the 091 is twice the cost of the 002 and the main shaft on the 091 is the weak link. ..the 002 I already had redone but now am sending it back to get the new R&P and the stronger diff...for the cost of a 091 I can build 2 002 trannies. ...all the guts are the same as the type 1 bug, just a beefier case. ..when I get an extra 12k I'll upgrade to a stronger tranny from Weddle that can handle the torque. ..this is why I'm stopping at the 180hp mark, the 002 can handle 300 ft lbs if driven respectively.

That is absolutely false. I have had plenty of those transmissions apart. The only late Type 1 style parts (113 part numbers) in the 002 Type 2 transmission are some small items like thrust washers, woodruff keys, and needle bearings. Some of the very early (1968... the goofy ones) use a couple more 113 pieces like synchronizer hubs and rings, but that is about it. The meat and potatoes bits are different, and everything is beefier and chunkier in the 091 trans because that coincided with them starting to use the much more powerful (for a Bus) 2.0L Type 4 engine in 1976. They further improved some items into the T3 era, but in doing so created a couple other weak spots... most common the 3-4 shift slider fork which breaks and causes the trans to stick in 4th gear. There have been stronger versions available for that for decades. The 091 trans continued to be improved and strengthened right up until its last versions which were still sold in 2003, in the South African built T3s that had up to a 2.6L I5 gasoline engine powering them.

That said, the early Type 2 IRS trans like you are using is certainly fine for most stuff, but when I was young and crazy, the buggy stuff broke lots of things... including those. And we were not using ANYTHING even remotely as powerful as a stock ALH let alone one cranked up to double its output.
 
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Fiat500Baja

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Look man, I'm not here to argue about gears...I'll give you my tranny builders number and you can argue your point with him...I wanted to build a 091 but the cost was almost 3 times the cost just in parts alone, he has been doing vw trannies for over 35yrs...he knows all the supplier's and what parts are harder to get than others...I trust his knowledge and experience...done with this gear subject. :cool:

I merely am looking for knowledge about the earlier tdi systems and what important components I will need from the donor vehicle...I would like to remove only the necessary wiring to operate the fuel system and necessary relays to operate the glow plugs...did the 99-2003 have a immobilizer?...I was told they did.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
1999 does not. 2000-2003 does. Easily deleted in the ECU by a tuner.

Piles of info on this here in the conversion section, lots of people have repowered vehicles with ALHs. And there is not a one-size-fits all thing necessarily. Some folks convert the pump to a mechanical control, usually called "M-TDI". Of course, this also means you have to come up with a different way to control the boost, as the ECU also does that. And you'll have no OBD obviously, which is helpful for tuning.

Hopefully someone besides me can chime in here with some better info on engine management options for you. There are also places that make harnesses for this sort of thing. Google "standalone TDI engine harness" and you'll get some good info.
 

Fiat500Baja

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Oilhammer, I appreciate your tranny concerns, if I break it, I'll fix it...I'm not 21 going 110mph...I don't do those things anymore. ..looking for low speed torque climbing ability...I already owned and had the 002 redone, Weddle had nothing to do with my tranny choice, they just recommend the torque bias diff made for the 091 but will fit my 002 with their install kit.
 

Fiat500Baja

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1999 does not. 2000-2003 does. Easily deleted in the ECU by a tuner.
Piles of info on this here in the conversion section, lots of people have repowered vehicles with ALHs. And there is not a one-size-fits all thing necessarily. Some folks convert the pump to a mechanical control, usually called "M-TDI". Of course, this also means you have to come up with a different way to control the boost, as the ECU also does that. And you'll have no OBD obviously, which is helpful for tuning.
Hopefully someone besides me can chime in here with some better info on engine management options for you. There are also places that make harnesses for this sort of thing. Google "standalone TDI engine harness" and you'll get some good info.
Thanks, I already ran across a company called fast forward automotive that can do a custom built harness. ..but than when I talked with another shop they told me that the ecu harness was already independent of the cars wiring harness. ..this is why I am asking these questions.
Thanks
 

oilhammer

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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The ALH has two harnesses to the ECU. One for the engine side, one for the car side. Pretty typical arrangement, like most cars.

The engine side goes to... the engine, and the car side goes to mostly the junction box, where things like CAN bus links, power and ground, and other non-engine inputs (pedals, etc.) wiring is linked.

There isn't much on the engine. The ALH has one connector on the pump, one for the lift sensor on #3 injector, the CKP sensor (there is no CMP sensor), the CTS, and the VSS. That's pretty much it.

Glow system controlled by the ECU via a glow control relay, which depending on year could be inside the car or next to the ECU in the cowl. EGR and VNT and anti-shudder valve solenoids along the firewall, along with the breather heater and MAF. MAP is in the charge air cooler. There is no feedback in the exhaust at all. The oil pressure sensor is in the harness with the alternator and A/C wiring.
 
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markd89

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Los Angeles
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1978 VW Bus 1Z TDI
Since your project is so custom, why not use the stock trans and mount the engine transverse?

I have paid to have my 091 built twice and purposefully run the engine detuned to preserve the trans. The TDI trans would be much cheaper to modify or replace.
 

Fiat500Baja

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Since your project is so custom, why not use the stock trans and mount the engine transverse?
I have paid to have my 091 built twice and purposefully run the engine detuned to preserve the trans. The TDI trans would be much cheaper to modify or replace.
Yes, but you can't run a 35" tire with a transverse FWD transaxle...in my opinion, the 091 is weaker than the 002:D
 

Hasenwerk

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1982 Cabriolet (BEW|VNT17|Stage4), 1989 VW TriStar Syncro soon-to-be CR TDI (CBEA), 2001 Ford Ranger Edge 4x4 (ALH|VNT17|R520|Stage4)
I have converted many a T3 Syncro (094) to TDI power. I personally wouldn't go over 250ft.lbs on these transmissions even with all the Weddle parts installed. If you use it hard, it's going to break - period! Everything is weak in these transmissions. My Syncro camper originally had a stock 3rd and Weddle 4th and I cleaned the teeth right off the stock 3rd gear hauling a trailer with a quad and going up a hill circa 70km/h floored it and ziiip - 3rd gear gone! The engine was a GT2052 / DLC 764 / 11mm pump with Stage 5 software - so I would estimate 180hp - same numbers you are thinking of. VW Bus transmissions were never designed for that much power.
 

Fiat500Baja

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I have converted many a T3 Syncro (094) to TDI power. I personally wouldn't go over 250ft.lbs on these transmissions even with all the Weddle parts installed. If you use it hard, it's going to break - period! Everything is weak in these transmissions. My Syncro camper originally had a stock 3rd and Weddle 4th and I cleaned the teeth right off the stock 3rd gear hauling a trailer with a quad and going up a hill circa 70km/h floored it and ziiip - 3rd gear gone! The engine was a GT2052 / DLC 764 / 11mm pump with Stage 5 software - so I would estimate 180hp - same numbers you are thinking of. VW Bus transmissions were never designed for that much power.
Not trying to be condescending here but you can't compare a 5k lb vehicle to one that is in the 1500lb range, sorry man but the math is way different.

Thanks for your advice though.
 

1.9ZOOK

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ALH Samurai
It's basically the #1 TDI diagnostic program (Rosstech)
p.s. you might actually be buying your stand alone harness from Hasenwerk :) He's quite knowledgable.
 

jackfolstam

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Oct 14, 2016
Location
CA
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MkI Rabbit ALH swap
I think the cluster only communicates with 2001+ cars (the ones with an immobilizer). I don't know of the benefits of using the later cars except for then if you get it working, you have an immobilizer. Could be differences with tunes I guess. There are small tune differences from the factory, like 'hot start fix' and this weird thing with the cruise control signals if you don't put in cruise/wire it to fake that cruise is installed.
 
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