ALH vs. PD vs. CR emissions comparison somewhere?

SFHGolfTDI

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At this point in VW's history, I'm very happy to have my ALH, running a renewable diesel fuel with lower emissions and carbon impact than ULSD, and lower emissions than B20 (but not B100 apparently, see http://dieselhpr.com/assets/media/DieselHPR_Fuel_Specification.pdf). The benefit of being in California is that we are a testing ground for these kinds of cutting edge renewable fuels (as much as CARB can also really throw a wrench in some things).

With this emissions scandal, I'm curious if there is a thread summarizing and comparing the emissions of different models of TDI to each other. I understand that newer model TDIs are lower in PMs, but much higher in NOx than older diesels (and with the cheat, absurdly high). But I'm interested to see what the difference is in the specification for each, and then how much the cheat effected this as well.

Is this data available somewhere in a lay person accessible table or something? I searched but didn't find anything with this kind of direct comparison.
 
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ATR

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On the note of the threadstory subject I'm very curious how a common rail tdi with all the emissions equipment deleted but had a proper diesel catalyst would compare tour older tech.
 

VeeDubTDI

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ALH certification: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1998/volkswagen_pc_a0070202_1d9_1_diesel.pdf

2012 non-SCR and 2013 SCR are in the WVU study here: http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions-testing-light-duty-diesel-vehicles-us

Here is everything (literally all cars) from 2004 (download and open with Excel): http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/veh-cert/cert-tst/04actrr.csv

Current emissions standards are here: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/#1

Other information can be found on the internet if your Google-fu is strong.
 
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SFHGolfTDI

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Thank you! If I find a chance, I'll try to compile something like this into a table for a sticky on this subforum.
 

VeeDubTDI

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On the note of the threadstory subject I'm very curious how a common rail tdi with all the emissions equipment deleted but had a proper diesel catalyst would compare tour older tech.
If we're just talking about NOx, it would be dirtier due to being more powerful in the same size (approximately) package. Higher boost, peak cylinder pressures, and cylinder temperatures will create more NOx.
 

jerryfreak

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At this point in VW's history, I'm very happy to have my ALH, running a renewable diesel fuel with lower emissions and carbon impact than ULSD, and lower emissions than biodiesel
you mean B20 (A.K.A P80)
 

SFHGolfTDI

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you mean B20 (A.K.A P80)
I know what B20 is. Hardly a "renewable" as you point out. Thanks.

No, I mean DieselHPR (98% tallow/oil). I know its imported across the Pacific, and thus more carbon intensive than locally sourced B99 (which I ran for the last 5 years), but at least its petroleum free. And its also a very clean burning, cleaner than ULSD or B99, or B20. I might still be burning B99 if California / CARB didn't make it so difficult to buy and use (our coop was shut down).

DieselHPR is locally available at the pump, renewable with the above caveats, and a good option for all TDIs, including the newest models. That makes it a win on most levels. If refiners can start making more renewable diesel locally, that would be even better.

EDIT: After re-reading, I'm not sure what you meant exactly: That I'm running B20, or that DieselHPR is lower emission only than B20? I originally thought you meant the former, but maybe you mean the latter.
 
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jerryfreak

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I know what B20 is. Hardly a "renewable" as you point out. Thanks.

No, I mean DieselHPR (98% tallow/oil). I know its imported across the Pacific, and thus more carbon intensive than locally sourced B99 (which I ran for the last 5 years), but at least its petroleum free. And its also a very clean burning, cleaner than ULSD or B99
cleaner? maybe if NOx is your only criteria. B99 beats HPR on every other emissions criteria (carbon intensity/CO/hydrocarbons/particulate matter). and of course lubricity

not knocking HPR, its a great drop-in fuel. to say it burns cleaner than B99 is pretty inaccurate
 

SFHGolfTDI

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cleaner? maybe if NOx is your only criteria. B99 beats HPR on every other emissions criteria (carbon intensity/CO/hydrocarbons/particulate matter). and of course lubricity

not knocking HPR, its a great drop-in fuel. to say it burns cleaner than B99 is pretty inaccurate
I'm looking for something that summarizes the numbers or does a side by side comparison and can't find anything after a quick search. Do you have a quick link? You may be right, I just can't find the numbers.

EDIT: Found some data to back up that B100 is cleaner on everything but NOx in these two CARB documents: http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/altdiesel/20150521BD_StaffReport.pdf; http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/altdiesel/20150521RD_StaffReport.pdf
 
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Stealth TDI

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Hello,

I don't want to start a new thread unless it is necessary. This NOx discussion may be a good place for my question:

I'm interested in writing a brief article, an opinion piece of sorts. I don't want to write much about the NOx, mostly because I cannot find and translate the meanings, but also because it's not going to be the focus of the article. It'll be more of a "how I feel about my car now that VW..." piece.

However, I am interested in capturing just a few points. Can anyone help me with an easy to read list of layman's numbers for NOx? My limited research tells me that there are three main time periods: 1) No NOx criteria until 2004; 2) NOx criteria "x" from 2004-2006; and 3) Criteria "y" from 2007 to present.

Then there are the "classes" (my word, not the EPA's) for vehicles. I THINK I saw that anything over 8500-lbs GVWR either doesn't have to meet a requirement or the requirement is much higher. This is part of where I need help. I think I see that motorcycles are allowed a much higher NOx output, too.

Can someone please share here:

1) What NOx was pre-CR TDIs required to meet? I'm pretty sure my 1998 didn't have to meet an NOx criteria even though it had an EGR.

2) What NOx is the CR required to meet? I'll assume we currently emit "up to 40X" that. :eek:

3) What NOx is a full-sized pickup with a GVWR of >8500 lbs required to meet?

4) What NOx are motorcycles required to meet?

The pages I saw seemed to indicate that a more powerful engine was allowed to emit more NOx, something like grams per BHP. But I couldn't really translate that in "grams per mile" or some other criteria that seemed like it could tie to MPGs.

BTW, this article for for my website. So you're not contributing to a paper that's making me money. The article will be more owner-related than scientific. I'd like good numbers, but what I REALLY want is to not be completely off-base. :p I may not use the answers to all of my questions, but perhaps a paraphrase of sorts.

The slant of my article, while it WILL express disappointment with VW, is that my CR is way cleaner than my AHU. I think it's cleaner than the ALH. I'm a bit hazy on whether it's cleaner than a PD, 3/4 ton truck or motorcycle. I also think it's cleaner than most aircraft. I will close with some hope that VW will be able to make things right. I have no current plan to leave the VW family.

Can anyone help?

Thanks,

Scott
 

Geomorph

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Here is a summary of searching I did earlier:
1999-2003 ALH engine Tier 1 NOx emissions limit = 1.0 gram per mile. Light duty diesel was allowed higher NOx than gas car at 0.4 g/mile
2004-2006 BEW engine Tier 2, Bin 9 NOx limit = 0.2 g/mile
2009+ Newer CR engines Tier 2, Bin 5 NOx limit = 0.05 g/mile
I did see mention that the ALH engine actual measurement was around 0.5 g/mile whereas the articles on the VW CR diesels talk about 40 time allowed limits which would equal 2g/mile.
 

ChemMan

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Here is a summary of searching I did earlier:
1999-2003 ALH engine Tier 1 NOx emissions limit = 1.0 gram per mile. Light duty diesel was allowed higher NOx than gas car at 0.4 g/mile
2004-2006 BEW engine Tier 2, Bin 9 NOx limit = 0.2 g/mile
2009+ Newer CR engines Tier 2, Bin 5 NOx limit = 0.05 g/mile
I did see mention that the ALH engine actual measurement was around 0.5 g/mile whereas the articles on the VW CR diesels talk about 40 time allowed limits which would equal 2g/mile.
One clarification Bin 5 is 0.07 g/mile (70mg/mi) for full life. Usually that is the number people work off of because that is what the manufacturer fleet must meet. The lower 0.05 g/mile (50mg/mi) is for first 50K miles.
 

SFHGolfTDI

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Here is a summary of searching I did earlier:
1999-2003 ALH engine Tier 1 NOx emissions limit = 1.0 gram per mile. Light duty diesel was allowed higher NOx than gas car at 0.4 g/mile
2004-2006 BEW engine Tier 2, Bin 9 NOx limit = 0.2 g/mile
2009+ Newer CR engines Tier 2, Bin 5 NOx limit = 0.05 g/mile
I did see mention that the ALH engine actual measurement was around 0.5 g/mile whereas the articles on the VW CR diesels talk about 40 time allowed limits which would equal 2g/mile.
It looks like you are posting the EPA limits but not necessarily the actual emissions for each model (though one can expect the manufacturers will be satisfied with staying just under the limit). The CARB ALH cert that VeeDubTDI posted above shows that the ALH put out .7 gram/mile of NOx.
 

bhtooefr

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1) What NOx was pre-CR TDIs required to meet? I'm pretty sure my 1998 didn't have to meet an NOx criteria even though it had an EGR.

2) What NOx is the CR required to meet? I'll assume we currently emit "up to 40X" that. :eek:
I'll go through the standards here, although I don't have full numbers for diesels, and I'm focusing on federal standards more than California, although some California data will be used as well. I'm going to ignore light duty trucks, as the first TDIs certified as such were after Tier 2 unified trucks and cars.

In 1975, the first NOx standards for cars and light duty trucks were instituted as part of the Clean Air Act, at 3.1 grams per mile.[1]

In 1977-1979, the NOx standard for cars is lowered to 2.0 g/mi in an amendment to the Clean Air Act.[1] I believe the first VW diesels had to meet this, and a 1980 Rabbit diesel (the oldest I can find in the EPA's datafiles) was at 1.4 g/mi for federal emissions.[2]

In 1981, the NOx standard for cars is further lowered to 1.0 g/mi.[1] All of these above figures are at 5 years, 50,000 miles as I understand.[3]

In 1994, Tier 1 emissions regulations are enacted. Diesel vehicles are allowed 1.0 g/mi at 5 years, 50,000 miles (gassers get hit a lot harder, at 0.4 g/mi), and 1.25 g/mi at 10 years, 100,000 miles full useful life (0.6 g/mi for gassers).[3] This is what the 1Z, AHU, and ALH had to meet.

In 2004, Tier 2 emissions regulations began phase-in. Tier 2 Bin 10 replaces the Tier 1 gasser regulations (with the change that full useful life is now 120,000 miles), and this is the highest legal class for a passenger car. California began phasing in LEV II at the same time, which I'll get to (it's effectively Tier 2 Bin 5).[4] As it's the gasser regulations, 0.4 g/mi at 50,000 miles, 0.6 g/mi at 120,000 miles.[5] Most of the PDs (BEW, BHW, BKW, and BRM) had to meet this. The LEV II phase-in schedule allowed the 2006 Touareg with the BWF engine, certified in Tier 2 Bin 10, to be counted as a California LEV I ULEV vehicle, though, as it was a "MDV3" due to its curb weight under LEV I regulations.[6] (It's worth noting that the BWF added DPFs, too.)

In 2007, Tier 2 Bins 9 and 10 were deleted for passenger cars, Tier 2 Bin 8 was the highest allowed standard. This allows 0.14 g/mi NOx at 50,000 miles, and 0.2 g/mi at 120,000 miles[5], and Volkswagen didn't go for it. Bin 10 wasn't deleted for trucks until 2009, so the 2007[7] and 2008[8] Touareg V10 TDIs remained certified in that bin.

Now, the common rails aimed for Tier 2 Bin 5, which was phased in for passenger cars in California as LEV II. This allows 0.05 g/mi NOx at 50,000 miles, 0.07 g/mi NOx at 120,000 miles. (It's also worth noting that Tier 2 is when Federal and California emissions began to be harmonized.)[4][5]

The EA288 common rails, for what it's worth, are certified to a stricter standard (they don't have to be, phase-in is just beginning for 2015, as I understand) - Tier 3 Bin 125, which allows 0.125 g/mi of NMOG plus NOx at 150,000 miles.[9][10] This is fully harmonized with California LEV III ULEV125.[11] Note that NMOG and NOx are now combined. Tier 3 Bin 125/LEV III ULEV125's limits, however, are in between Tier 2 Bin 5 (0.160 g/mi combined) and Tier 2 Bin 4 (0.110 g/mi combined).[5]

3) What NOx is a full-sized pickup with a GVWR of >8500 lbs required to meet?
There's several answers to that. Because it's not considered a "medium-duty passenger vehicle" (these are 2500-class SUVs and vans, typically), it falls under the heavy-duty regulations, in which a chassis or an engine can be certified.[12] Everyone goes for certifying the chassis in that class, though. Current EPA standards are 0.2 g/mi if it's 8,500-10,000 pounds (read: 3/4 ton), 0.4 g/mi if it's 10,000-14,000 pounds GVWR (read: 1 ton) for spark ignition[13], and I'm finding claims that if a diesel manufacturer chooses to chassis-certify, they must follow spark ignition NOx standards.

4) What NOx are motorcycles required to meet?
HC and NOx are combined in these regulations. There's four classes of motorcycle - class I-A (under 50 cc), class I-B (50-169 cc), class II (170-279 cc), and class III (280+ cc).

Class I-A, I-B, and II are allowed 1.0 g/km (1.61 g/mi) HC, and an optional standard of 1.4 g/km (2.25 g/mi) HC+NOx, if a manufacturer wants to average emissions or transfer credits.

Class III is allowed 0.8 g/km (1.29 g/mi) HC+NOx.[14]

To put that into context, and combine some figures for cars... Tier 0 (1981) standards allowed 0.41 g/mi HC, 1.0 g/mi NOx, for 1.41 g/mi HC+NOx.[3] Tier 1 diesel (1994) allowed 1.41 g/mi at 5 yrs/50k mi, or 1.61 g/mi HC+NOx at 10 yrs/100k mi.[3] It gets more confusing with Tier 2, as only non-methane organic gases/hydrocarbons and formaldehyde are regulated, but I'll add them and NOx together. Tier 2 Bin 10 allows 0.54 g/mi at 50k mi, 0.774 g/mi at 120k mi. Tier 2 Bin 5 allows 0.14 g/mi at 50k mi, 0.178 g/mi at 120k mi.[5] Tier 3 Bin 125 allows 0.129 g/mi at 150k mi.[10]

The pages I saw seemed to indicate that a more powerful engine was allowed to emit more NOx, something like grams per BHP. But I couldn't really translate that in "grams per mile" or some other criteria that seemed like it could tie to MPGs.

BTW, this article for for my website. So you're not contributing to a paper that's making me money. The article will be more owner-related than scientific. I'd like good numbers, but what I REALLY want is to not be completely off-base. :p I may not use the answers to all of my questions, but perhaps a paraphrase of sorts.

The slant of my article, while it WILL express disappointment with VW, is that my CR is way cleaner than my AHU. I think it's cleaner than the ALH. I'm a bit hazy on whether it's cleaner than a PD, 3/4 ton truck or motorcycle. I also think it's cleaner than most aircraft. I will close with some hope that VW will be able to make things right. I have no current plan to leave the VW family.

Can anyone help?

Thanks,

Scott
Now, in that context... real-world, on NOx emissions, a CR is dirtier than the claimed figures for a 1980 Rabbit diesel. It's dirtier than the allowed figures for a 1-ton pickup. Depending on the HC emissions of the motorcycle (for instance, a motorcycle manufacturer may elect to go very light on the HC emissions, but spew NOx) and which CR you have, it's worse than a motorcycle... but motorcycles are dirty.

[1] The History of Reducing Tailpipe Emissions
[2] 1980 Light Duty Vehicle Certified Test Report Files
[3] Light-Duty Vehicle and Light-Duty Truck -- Tier 0, Tier 1, National Low Emission Vehicle (NLEV), and Clean Fuel Vehicle (CFV) Exhaust Emission Standards
[4] Low Emission Vehicle II (LEV II) Standards
[5] Light-Duty Vehicle, Light-Duty Truck, and Medium-Duty Passenger Vehicle -- Tier 2 Exhaust Emission Standards
[6] CARB Executive Order certifying the 2006 Touareg V10 TDI
[7] 2007 Light Duty Vehicle Certified Vehicle Test Result Report Data
[8] 2008 Light Duty Vehicle Certified Vehicle Test Result Report Data
[9] 2015 Light Duty Vehicle Certified Vehicle Test Result Report Data
[10] Cars and Light-Duty Trucks - Tier 3
[11] Low Emission Vehicle III (LEV III) Standards
[12] Greenhouse Gas (GHG) Emission Requirements, Heavy-Duty Pickup Trucks and Vans, slide 10
[13] Heavy-Duty Highway Spark-Ignition Engines -- Exhaust Emission Standards
[14] Highway Motorcycles -- Exhaust Emission Standards
 

DriverJon

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Wow... you're becoming quite the data manager on this. Will we be reading your book on these events in the future? :D Keep up the good work...

I'm wondering, out of that up to 40 times the standard emission that can happen, how much of it occurs for how long? I'll admit I haven't gone through all of the reports yet, but I remember mention of much of the emissions happening over very short amounts of time. I'm wondering if it's known whether its mostly peaks, or the average was that much over the limit? That would change the perspective somewhat...
 

Stealth TDI

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Thanks for that exhaustive post! As suspected, I was short on knowledge and am glad to have good info that'll prevent me from writing absolute BS. I still have slant, it just won't be where I thought it was going: I THOUGHT my dirty CR was still emitting less NOx than previous generations of TDIs and HD light trucks. I see that is not accurate. However, I didn't buy my CR for NOx emissions... NOx simply wasn't in my mind. I bought the CR for its power, economy and NO SMOKE. I think it's still safe to say that the CR is cleaner than its predecessors, with the exception of NOx.
 

ChemMan

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Wow... you're becoming quite the data manager on this. Will we be reading your book on these events in the future? :D Keep up the good work...

I'm wondering, out of that up to 40 times the standard emission that can happen, how much of it occurs for how long? I'll admit I haven't gone through all of the reports yet, but I remember mention of much of the emissions happening over very short amounts of time. I'm wondering if it's known whether its mostly peaks, or the average was that much over the limit? That would change the perspective somewhat...
It was 35x not 40x but it was the average over a 59.09 km test route. Specifically route #3 which was rural and included uphill and downhill sections.

Overall the Jetta was run through four test routes twice for a total of 362 km. This included urban, highway, rural, and rush hour conditions. The average NOx emissions over the entire test was 1083 mg/km (1734 mg/mi) which is about 25x the limit. In comparison the Passat (w/ SCR) over the same course was about half that (565 mg/km (903 mg/mi). Those are probably the best metrics to use. Still 25x or 12x is bad in an industry where 30% is unacceptable.

Some people like to bash the WVU study but it actually was well done. Remember they were doing this on behalf of an NGO pushing for cleaner diesel in Europe. They just didn't get the results they expected.
 
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bhtooefr

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40x was the EPA's number, after they took WVU's study, and did their own analysis.
 

ChemMan

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40x was the EPA's number, after they took WVU's study, and did their own analysis.
Hmm that might be. I actually would love to see the EPAs data as I imagine they got test data for multiple vehicles. However with it being an ongoing investigation that isn't going to happen.
 

LNXGUY

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I guess you forgot to read this portion.

The slant of my article, while it WILL express disappointment with VW, is that my CR is way cleaner than my AHU. I think it's cleaner than the ALH. I'm a bit hazy on whether it's cleaner than a PD, 3/4 ton truck or motorcycle. I also think it's cleaner than most aircraft. I will close with some hope that VW will be able to make things right. I have no current plan to leave the VW family.
 

VeeDubTDI

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No it isn't! Stop saying that.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4898832&postcount=14[/QUOTE
I guess you forgot to read this portion.
So you're posting someone's opinion prior to them researching the subject as fact, rather than posting the facts that I quoted? :confused:

Please familiarize yourself with the facts. They're laid out very clearly.

Summary: Commonrails in real world testing emit more NOx than an ALH and more NOx than a PD.
 

bhtooefr

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My post in this thread, which VeeDubTDI is linking to, is debunking that particular claim (that a CR is cleaner than an AHU on NOx emissions - it isn't) of Stealth TDI's.

Stealth TDI requested data discussing his understanding of the situation, as he was unsure about things and wanted to be corrected if he was wrong. I provided that data and corrected him where he was wrong.
 

SFHGolfTDI

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You seem quite upset about something.
As a mod, I think he is rightfully upset at the thousands of useless posts that have come up on this site this week, and the way unclear or baseless statements add to the confusion.

You simply can't say that an engine with 40x the NOx is "way cleaner" without substantiating how and why that would be the case. Unless you believe NOx is meaningless, in which case you should substantiate why you think that also.
 

LNXGUY

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As a mod, I think he is rightfully upset at the thousands of useless posts that have come up on this site this week, and the way unclear or baseless statements add to the confusion.
You simply can't say that an engine with 40x the NOx is "way cleaner" without substantiating how and why that would be the case. Unless you believe NOx is meaningless, in which case you should substantiate why you think that also.
With the level of control the new CRs have, I can't honestly believe a rotary pump ALH could be any 'cleaner' when it comes to emissions. That's it, that's all.
 

SFHGolfTDI

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Also, does anyone have data (or educated conjecture) on what kind of NOx an ALH (and other models) put out with EGR deleted?
 

Stealth TDI

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Hey,

Stealth TDI requested data discussing his understanding of the situation, as he was unsure about things and wanted to be corrected if he was wrong. I provided that data and corrected him where he was wrong.
I wasn't wrong. I was ignorant of the facts! HAHA! Thanks again. BTW, did no one see the unintended pun in my post above?

Thanks for that exhaustive post!
I honestly didn't catch that until just now when I reread it. Too funny of a coincidence, my choice of words there. :eek:

Scott
 

Stealth TDI

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I forgot to ask, what is the meaning of this quote from a respected TDIClub member?

Be thankful TDI's put out NOx, it reduces Ozone (at least the types a diesel admits).
I think "admits" was supposed to say "emits." Still, isn't diesel NOx the same as any other NOx?

Scott
 
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