Whoa... this can't be good [pic]
- Thread starter TDi_chikk
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rrick
Veteran Member
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Now, how do i get to that on a beetle?
Now, how do i get to that on a beetle?
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
How to prevent that? Three ways.
That gunk in your intake manifold consists of a combination of oil from the crankcase vent system and soot from the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) system. Do "something" about either system and it will not happen again.
Crankcase vent can be run to atmosphere instead of the intake provided that your vehicle is used for off-road purposes only
The amount of EGR can be reduced by going into the VAG-COM adaptation channels and raising channel 3 to the maximum number that it will accept. If you are using the vehicle for off-road purposes only then the Epsilonian Confederation beckons ... but you'll have to search the forums to learn more.
How to prevent that? Three ways.
That gunk in your intake manifold consists of a combination of oil from the crankcase vent system and soot from the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) system. Do "something" about either system and it will not happen again.
Crankcase vent can be run to atmosphere instead of the intake provided that your vehicle is used for off-road purposes only
The amount of EGR can be reduced by going into the VAG-COM adaptation channels and raising channel 3 to the maximum number that it will accept. If you are using the vehicle for off-road purposes only then the Epsilonian Confederation beckons ... but you'll have to search the forums to learn more.
TDi_chikk
Well-known member
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
GoFaster: Can you give me more details in this EGR thingy and crankcase vent for offroad use thingy??
Illustrations and pictures would be nice...
Pleaaaaaaaaaaase??
I'm gonna make my friend and my brother fix this.
Wouldn't all that gunk make my car slower?
GoFaster: Can you give me more details in this EGR thingy and crankcase vent for offroad use thingy??
Pleaaaaaaaaaaase??
I'm gonna make my friend and my brother fix this.
Wouldn't all that gunk make my car slower?
M
mickey
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
CCV alone will coat the inside of your entire intake system with a thin layer of clean engine oil. This will not affect anything except the cooling efficiency of your intercooler.
How to defeat EGR:
1. Disconnect the vacuum hose from the EGR actuator and stick a golf tee in it. This will cause your Check Engine Light to glow...but who cares? I don't.
2. Join the Epsilonian Confederation. Their CELs don't glow. For membership in this hallowed society, email rberube@upsolute.com Do NOT mention "EGR", "Emissions", "TDI" or any other automotive-related subject! Simply enquire as to the membership fee. Once you have received The Device, search for a thread called "Jesus Loves Me", using my membership number.
To defeat the CCV system:
1. Disconnect the short plastic tube from the CCV fitting on top of the engine's valve cover. Plug the tube with something. Then, attach several feet of 3/4" heater hose to the CCV fitting, securing it with a hose clamp, and route the hose down to the belly pan under the engine. You can attach a catch can to the end. You can filter the gases. You can even use a Racor filter to condense the gases and return the oil to the crankcase if you're really into the Environment. Or you can just let the hose drip. It won't make a big mess.
MESSING WITH EITHER SYSTEM IS AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!!
-mickey
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not exactly. EGR alone will cause a horrible mess. Soot in the exhaust combined with water condensed out of the exhaust will cause thick, black sludge. If anything, the CCV gases help thin the stuff out a bit!
CCV alone will coat the inside of your entire intake system with a thin layer of clean engine oil. This will not affect anything except the cooling efficiency of your intercooler.
How to defeat EGR:
1. Disconnect the vacuum hose from the EGR actuator and stick a golf tee in it. This will cause your Check Engine Light to glow...but who cares? I don't.
2. Join the Epsilonian Confederation. Their CELs don't glow. For membership in this hallowed society, email rberube@upsolute.com Do NOT mention "EGR", "Emissions", "TDI" or any other automotive-related subject! Simply enquire as to the membership fee. Once you have received The Device, search for a thread called "Jesus Loves Me", using my membership number.
To defeat the CCV system:
1. Disconnect the short plastic tube from the CCV fitting on top of the engine's valve cover. Plug the tube with something. Then, attach several feet of 3/4" heater hose to the CCV fitting, securing it with a hose clamp, and route the hose down to the belly pan under the engine. You can attach a catch can to the end. You can filter the gases. You can even use a Racor filter to condense the gases and return the oil to the crankcase if you're really into the Environment. Or you can just let the hose drip. It won't make a big mess.
MESSING WITH EITHER SYSTEM IS AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!!
-mickey
garrettp
Former Chip-Monk
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
of course you can also use them as a center piece for your next dinner gathering. or if you would like you can hand it from a door way and call it mistletoe
. i personally keep one in my back pocket as a reminder of things to do
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and that is why they are sold for off road use only
garrettp
Former Chip-Monk
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
hey check out these pictures
pictures of things
they will be of great help in the future
not to be confused with THIS
hey check out these pictures
pictures of things
they will be of great help in the future
not to be confused with THIS
saabguru
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2001
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
SO, how many miles does this accumulation correspond to?
SO, how many miles does this accumulation correspond to?
M
mickey
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Pics 1, 2 and 3 show the MAF sensor harness and wires. You clip the HIGHEST NUMBERED WIRE to splice in the Epsilonian Device.
Pics 4 and 5 show the EGR acutator with the vacuum hose pulled off. You plug the vacuum hose into the Epsilonian Device. Or, if you wish to join the Fundamentalist Andromedan Resistance Team (F.A.R.T.) and enjoy the friendly glow of your Check Engine Light, you disconnect the vacuum hose from the actuator and stick a golf tee in it. (Do NOT plug the metal nipple on the actuator! Leave it open to the atmosphere.)
Pic 6 is a hose stuck in the side of a box of some kind.
-mickey
Pics 1, 2 and 3 show the MAF sensor harness and wires. You clip the HIGHEST NUMBERED WIRE to splice in the Epsilonian Device.
Pics 4 and 5 show the EGR acutator with the vacuum hose pulled off. You plug the vacuum hose into the Epsilonian Device. Or, if you wish to join the Fundamentalist Andromedan Resistance Team (F.A.R.T.) and enjoy the friendly glow of your Check Engine Light, you disconnect the vacuum hose from the actuator and stick a golf tee in it. (Do NOT plug the metal nipple on the actuator! Leave it open to the atmosphere.)
Pic 6 is a hose stuck in the side of a box of some kind.
-mickey
garrettp
Former Chip-Monk
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">tha hose goes into the EPS which i have in the relay box that you can find behind the MAF. infact you can see the MAF at the top right of the picture. also notice the brake fluid reservoir at the bottom of the pic. that should give a good idea of a nice place to put it.Originally posted by mickey:
Pic 6 is a hose stuck in the side of a box of some kind.
-mickey
GeWilli
Top Post Dawg
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Be sure to clean out the manifold on that car, take it off completely and clean it out.
My first guess would be that it is an out of state car. second guess would be that the diesel fuel in the area of california that it was using wasn't the newest and greatest CARB stuff.
If you are running the good CARB diesel fuel, and you are using a diesel full synthetic motor oil (not MOBIL 1) Delvac-1 5W-40, Amsoil S3000, or their 15W-40, or Chevron's 5W-40 . . . this will not occur. Case in point look at a few of the cars running Amoco Premier exclusivly - 100k+ miles in some cases where the intake manifold is not restricted at all, with everything intact!
No need to induce any electrical faults with the EPS device or unwanted CELs (easy to remove but a pain none the less).
venting the crank case is a good idea, but I prefer an inline filter to accomplish that goal rather than just dumping that water and oil to the ground. But dumping it to the ground is okay i suppose, better than the alternative (leaving it stock) but it has a Closed Crankcase Vent on purpose. Putting in a PCV instead (basically dumping the hose to theground) is not a very responsible thing to do.
and then defeating the EGR, when there is that californian special Diesel fuel (CARB stuff 50+ cetane low aromatics nearly no sulfur) is flat out a waste of time and VERY illeagal. No need to double or quadurple the amount of NOx you are dumping in the atmosphere.
Clean it out. Monitor it carefully for a bit, find the good fuel, THEN decide if you can live with the drastic action that people with low regard for the environment do (GoFaster, garretP . . . mickey) too bad I have to breath Garret's air blowin over from Wisconsin - GoFaster's stays mostly in canada - i'm sure his contribution to the nitric acid rain over the Northeastern forests isn't too bad . . .
---
I need to add a
towards GoFaster, garret-oops i mean Pooh-Pooh-Head, and mickey - but I don't want the statements written above to be taken lightly or in jest.
[ February 06, 2002, 05:55: Message edited by: GeWilli ]
Be sure to clean out the manifold on that car, take it off completely and clean it out.
My first guess would be that it is an out of state car. second guess would be that the diesel fuel in the area of california that it was using wasn't the newest and greatest CARB stuff.
If you are running the good CARB diesel fuel, and you are using a diesel full synthetic motor oil (not MOBIL 1) Delvac-1 5W-40, Amsoil S3000, or their 15W-40, or Chevron's 5W-40 . . . this will not occur. Case in point look at a few of the cars running Amoco Premier exclusivly - 100k+ miles in some cases where the intake manifold is not restricted at all, with everything intact!
No need to induce any electrical faults with the EPS device or unwanted CELs (easy to remove but a pain none the less).
venting the crank case is a good idea, but I prefer an inline filter to accomplish that goal rather than just dumping that water and oil to the ground. But dumping it to the ground is okay i suppose, better than the alternative (leaving it stock) but it has a Closed Crankcase Vent on purpose. Putting in a PCV instead (basically dumping the hose to theground) is not a very responsible thing to do.
and then defeating the EGR, when there is that californian special Diesel fuel (CARB stuff 50+ cetane low aromatics nearly no sulfur) is flat out a waste of time and VERY illeagal. No need to double or quadurple the amount of NOx you are dumping in the atmosphere.
Clean it out. Monitor it carefully for a bit, find the good fuel, THEN decide if you can live with the drastic action that people with low regard for the environment do (GoFaster, garretP . . . mickey) too bad I have to breath Garret's air blowin over from Wisconsin - GoFaster's stays mostly in canada - i'm sure his contribution to the nitric acid rain over the Northeastern forests isn't too bad . . .
---
I need to add a
[ February 06, 2002, 05:55: Message edited by: GeWilli ]
PTC
Veteran Member
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Something about MAF:
I think someone posted that MAFs for A3 TDIs and A4 TDIs are different and have different connectors.
Well, according to the euro ETKA all AGR and AHF engines had p/n: 074 906 461 MAF until 1J-X-180000. After that they got p/n: 06A 906 461 MAFs which were used by ALH,... engines the whole time. So that would mean they're probably interchangable since there were no ECU changes at that production number.
Now, the interesting thing is that 074 906 461 is the number that was used on Golf A3 TDIs according to ETKA. So that means I too (I have AGR ~070000) have the A3 design MAF (which is btw ~$110 cheaper).
Did somebody say that A3 and A4 MAFs looked different? What was the difference?
Also, does that mean that you could buy A3 MAF if you already have problem with your A4 MAF, or was it problem with the production serie, not the design?
Thanks!
Something about MAF:
I think someone posted that MAFs for A3 TDIs and A4 TDIs are different and have different connectors.
Well, according to the euro ETKA all AGR and AHF engines had p/n: 074 906 461 MAF until 1J-X-180000. After that they got p/n: 06A 906 461 MAFs which were used by ALH,... engines the whole time. So that would mean they're probably interchangable since there were no ECU changes at that production number.
Now, the interesting thing is that 074 906 461 is the number that was used on Golf A3 TDIs according to ETKA. So that means I too (I have AGR ~070000) have the A3 design MAF (which is btw ~$110 cheaper).
Did somebody say that A3 and A4 MAFs looked different? What was the difference?
Also, does that mean that you could buy A3 MAF if you already have problem with your A4 MAF, or was it problem with the production serie, not the design?
Thanks!
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
CCV alone will coat the inside of your entire intake system with a thin layer of clean engine oil. This will not affect anything except the cooling efficiency of your intercooler.
-mickey</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">mickey,
GoFaster is 100% correct. Your description needs a little rework. "... water condensed out of the exhaust...." Huh?!?!?!?! Where is the water coming from? How long do think liquid water will last in a hot engine? The hotter exhaust may be cooled upon entering the intake flow, but is the moisture content high enough and the temp drop big enough to condense H2O out of the exhaust flow flow? I don't think so. Once the engine is up to running temp, any H2O will be gaseous. If there is that much liquid water in an intake at this point on a continual basis, there are bigger problems. If there is any condensation from cool down (as in shutdown), it will be limited to the moisture in the air in the immediate vicinity and removed upon running from evaporation due to the intake air flow and heating of the induction system. The exhaust flow would have to be supersaturated to condense water upon exitting the cylinder, and into the intake (EGR). What is the source of the water? If it is supersaturated, there are other bigger problems... amphibious, submarine... Condensation might happen somewhat during the early warm up transient due to the cold surfaces and warm exhaust flux, but all condensate will be removed as the engine heats up and air flow evaps any moisture that might have condensed. Also, the temps in the engine are going to be much higher than ambient, which will reduce the relative humidity of the induction air, making condensation less likely. What is the SS temp of the exhaust in the exhaust manifold and what state would H2O be at that temp at near baro conditions? Gaseous, not liquid, that's for sure.
And if water were keeping the intake that wet, wouldn't hydrolocking, rust, electrolytic action, and other issues be a concern?
The oil from the CCV acts like tack oil on a foam or cotton air filter. The CCV oil coats the entire surface of the induction system, post introduction, and the soot particles will adhere to it in the intake manifold, starting from where the exhaust is introduced to the intake. Water in the intake will evaporate quickly and is not an issue with respect to the gunky intakes.
Take some gunk from an intake and let sit out, or put it in an oven at 225F. See if it dries out or stays tarry.... If it dries out, it was water, if it stays tarry, it's CCV oil.
Here's a simpler and cleaner test. Get a large mixing bowl... put 1 cup of flour in the bowl. Use a fork to stir the flour and note the behavior of the flour. Does the flour build up on the bowl and fork? Add a half a cup of veg oil to the flour and continue to stir.... Gets kinda gunky, huh? The oil doesn't evaporate and the mix will stay gunky and sticky.
Do the same as above but with water instead of the veg oil. Let both of them sit out. The water based paste will dry out, the oil based paste will stay gunky.
The CCV "gasses" as you call them, are oil vapors. Oil and water don't mix. Oil does not thin out water. Water has a hard time existing in hot environments like hot engine crankcases, exhausts and intakes. Oil is the stuff that makes the tarry gunk in the intakes when combined with the soot from the EGR flow.
Oh, mickey, you floated the idea that maybe your MPGs were down due to a congested cat. Apparently your cat consumed a lot of oil at some point. But since you say the car runs like a striped-assed gorilla, it is unlikely that a clogged cat problem exists. Clogged exhausts drastically reduce output. Think about it, if your anal sphincter was majorly blocked, wouldn't your output be reduced?
Charlene,
How I keep my intake clean....
Well, I have a 1997 TDI with 87,000+ miles. Never cleaned the intake, checked it twice, nothing to be concerned. It is not pristine clean, nor is it restricted to impede performance. My average MPGs are going up, still. (MPG = 45.9 life time, 50+ in summer.) No loss in performance, it runs great!
There is a powdery coating of soot in the intake about 1/8" max. in some places, then a blackened oil coating. This is no big deal. (There are several parts of the intake air flow path, prior to the intake manifold, that have smaller cross sectional flow areas.) Nothing like your picture though. That's creepy.
I've never removed or cleaned my intake. I use common 40 min cetane commodity fuel, rarely an additive. I can rarely remember to add the additive, or just don't want to bother...
So if I don't use boutique fuel and mega additives, why isn't my intake like yours? Also, my car is intact: EGR and CCV are stock and not disabled.
Well, I think it's because every once in a while, I haul butt. Getting on a throughway, I'll wind out and hold 3rd and/or 4th gear. Always well below redline though. Maybe 3K to 3.5K RPM. Kinda like the ol' days when ya had to 'clean out the carburetor'. I try to produce a high load and high RPM condition to result in a high intake air flow to generate intake turbulance to dislodge what ever build up there might be. It seems to be working. I've got some steep and long hills around here. I try to go up those at 2500 to 3000 RPM to get a high load and high intake air flow due to the boost.
A crankcase vent oil vapor separator, like the Racor 3500, will go a long way to reducing the gunky intake. If the oil that binds the soot is removed, the soot won't stick. Apparently the Racor 3500 is due to be available in the next couple weeks. It looks like a pretty good device, that even I am considering. It'll keep the oil outta the flour....
[ February 06, 2002, 07:59: Message edited by: Boundless ]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not exactly. EGR alone will cause a horrible mess. Soot in the exhaust combined with water condensed out of the exhaust will cause thick, black sludge. If anything, the CCV gases help thin the stuff out a bit!
CCV alone will coat the inside of your entire intake system with a thin layer of clean engine oil. This will not affect anything except the cooling efficiency of your intercooler.
-mickey</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">mickey,
GoFaster is 100% correct. Your description needs a little rework. "... water condensed out of the exhaust...." Huh?!?!?!?! Where is the water coming from? How long do think liquid water will last in a hot engine? The hotter exhaust may be cooled upon entering the intake flow, but is the moisture content high enough and the temp drop big enough to condense H2O out of the exhaust flow flow? I don't think so. Once the engine is up to running temp, any H2O will be gaseous. If there is that much liquid water in an intake at this point on a continual basis, there are bigger problems. If there is any condensation from cool down (as in shutdown), it will be limited to the moisture in the air in the immediate vicinity and removed upon running from evaporation due to the intake air flow and heating of the induction system. The exhaust flow would have to be supersaturated to condense water upon exitting the cylinder, and into the intake (EGR). What is the source of the water? If it is supersaturated, there are other bigger problems... amphibious, submarine... Condensation might happen somewhat during the early warm up transient due to the cold surfaces and warm exhaust flux, but all condensate will be removed as the engine heats up and air flow evaps any moisture that might have condensed. Also, the temps in the engine are going to be much higher than ambient, which will reduce the relative humidity of the induction air, making condensation less likely. What is the SS temp of the exhaust in the exhaust manifold and what state would H2O be at that temp at near baro conditions? Gaseous, not liquid, that's for sure.
And if water were keeping the intake that wet, wouldn't hydrolocking, rust, electrolytic action, and other issues be a concern?
The oil from the CCV acts like tack oil on a foam or cotton air filter. The CCV oil coats the entire surface of the induction system, post introduction, and the soot particles will adhere to it in the intake manifold, starting from where the exhaust is introduced to the intake. Water in the intake will evaporate quickly and is not an issue with respect to the gunky intakes.
Take some gunk from an intake and let sit out, or put it in an oven at 225F. See if it dries out or stays tarry.... If it dries out, it was water, if it stays tarry, it's CCV oil.
Here's a simpler and cleaner test. Get a large mixing bowl... put 1 cup of flour in the bowl. Use a fork to stir the flour and note the behavior of the flour. Does the flour build up on the bowl and fork? Add a half a cup of veg oil to the flour and continue to stir.... Gets kinda gunky, huh? The oil doesn't evaporate and the mix will stay gunky and sticky.
Do the same as above but with water instead of the veg oil. Let both of them sit out. The water based paste will dry out, the oil based paste will stay gunky.
The CCV "gasses" as you call them, are oil vapors. Oil and water don't mix. Oil does not thin out water. Water has a hard time existing in hot environments like hot engine crankcases, exhausts and intakes. Oil is the stuff that makes the tarry gunk in the intakes when combined with the soot from the EGR flow.
Oh, mickey, you floated the idea that maybe your MPGs were down due to a congested cat. Apparently your cat consumed a lot of oil at some point. But since you say the car runs like a striped-assed gorilla, it is unlikely that a clogged cat problem exists. Clogged exhausts drastically reduce output. Think about it, if your anal sphincter was majorly blocked, wouldn't your output be reduced?
Charlene,
How I keep my intake clean....
Well, I have a 1997 TDI with 87,000+ miles. Never cleaned the intake, checked it twice, nothing to be concerned. It is not pristine clean, nor is it restricted to impede performance. My average MPGs are going up, still. (MPG = 45.9 life time, 50+ in summer.) No loss in performance, it runs great!
There is a powdery coating of soot in the intake about 1/8" max. in some places, then a blackened oil coating. This is no big deal. (There are several parts of the intake air flow path, prior to the intake manifold, that have smaller cross sectional flow areas.) Nothing like your picture though. That's creepy.
I've never removed or cleaned my intake. I use common 40 min cetane commodity fuel, rarely an additive. I can rarely remember to add the additive, or just don't want to bother...
So if I don't use boutique fuel and mega additives, why isn't my intake like yours? Also, my car is intact: EGR and CCV are stock and not disabled.
Well, I think it's because every once in a while, I haul butt. Getting on a throughway, I'll wind out and hold 3rd and/or 4th gear. Always well below redline though. Maybe 3K to 3.5K RPM. Kinda like the ol' days when ya had to 'clean out the carburetor'. I try to produce a high load and high RPM condition to result in a high intake air flow to generate intake turbulance to dislodge what ever build up there might be. It seems to be working. I've got some steep and long hills around here. I try to go up those at 2500 to 3000 RPM to get a high load and high intake air flow due to the boost.
A crankcase vent oil vapor separator, like the Racor 3500, will go a long way to reducing the gunky intake. If the oil that binds the soot is removed, the soot won't stick. Apparently the Racor 3500 is due to be available in the next couple weeks. It looks like a pretty good device, that even I am considering. It'll keep the oil outta the flour....
[ February 06, 2002, 07:59: Message edited by: Boundless ]
S
SkyPup
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Boundless is next to worthless.
What do you think is a byproduct of combustion?
WATER.
What do you think a PCV valve HELPS the engine with?
Getting rid of WATER.
Where do you think the sulfuric acid in the oil comes from?
WATER.
Boundless, you cannot swim or even tread water!
Mickey is right, YOU ARE ALL WET!
Boundless is next to worthless.
What do you think is a byproduct of combustion?
WATER.
What do you think a PCV valve HELPS the engine with?
Getting rid of WATER.
Where do you think the sulfuric acid in the oil comes from?
WATER.
Boundless, you cannot swim or even tread water!
Mickey is right, YOU ARE ALL WET!
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Here comes the anklebiter (aka: SkyPup),
SkyPup, are you off the double secret probation yet?
Please explain the relevance of your post to the thread.
While you're at it, explain how your advice to put a new battery in a car with a bad water pump bearing will help the car start. There's about a half dozen folks, at least, that have changed their battery on your advice and the cars still have the starting problems. I just live for your posts... I haven't watched TV since I started reading your postings...
Like a barrel of monkeys!! Your postings are fast and furious, 1ms apart.
Maybe the water in the battery needs more cetane. Better check it with the temp compensated hydrometer on the API scale
Here comes the anklebiter (aka: SkyPup),
SkyPup, are you off the double secret probation yet?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">SkyPup,Originally posted by SkyPup:
Boundless is next to worthless.
What do you think is a byproduct of combustion?
WATER.
What do you think a PCV valve HELPS the engine with?
Getting rid of WATER.
Where do you think the sulfuric acid in the oil comes from?
WATER.
Boundless, you cannot swim or even tread water!
Mickey is right, YOU ARE ALL WET!
Please explain the relevance of your post to the thread.
While you're at it, explain how your advice to put a new battery in a car with a bad water pump bearing will help the car start. There's about a half dozen folks, at least, that have changed their battery on your advice and the cars still have the starting problems. I just live for your posts... I haven't watched TV since I started reading your postings...
Maybe the water in the battery needs more cetane. Better check it with the temp compensated hydrometer on the API scale
GeWilli
Top Post Dawg
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Boundless - if you've done any maintenace on your car or examined how anything works espcially relevant to advice you offer you'd find you are kinda the lone man out.
the CCV had a TON of water vapor coming off it - yes that stuff can be easily and harmlessly combusted no problem and hence the CCV system.
The oil in the vapor is kinda the problem, not the water vapor. the oil collects along the whole intake pathway from just past the where the CCV connects to the intake all over the turbo, the intercooler, the charged air plumbing and finally it starts to be noticed most significantly at the intake manifold just downstream of where the exhaust gasses are re-circulated. If your car is producing any quantity of soot at any time it will get recycled and the soot particles will encounter the wall that is coated with oil and it will stick. A car without the CCV or with a filtered CCV will have a clean intake even with the EGR intact for the most part since a big portion of the soot is dry and will not adhere to the walls of the intake manifold. The oil acts like a glue, and then the soot from the EGR turns into a sponge and well it collects one layer at a time.
The water is a factor here in so much is as important as the oil vapor. The water will also join in the soot party - yeah it will mostly get boiled off but not after depositing the Sulfuric acid or reacting with the Exhaust gasses to form some nice stuff.
If anyone DOUBTS that there is water going through that CCV, tell ya what - simple simple experiment to do. Get some clear 3/4 ID hose - about 3 feet long - replace the stock CCV black plastic hose for a drive. take a look at that hose - preferably do it when the car is cold.
You will see a lot of water condensed along the hose.
The water itself isn't a problem, it is the oil vapor that the water carries out of the system and the dissolved acids and all that that is carried as well. Filter out the oil and you eliminate the soot build up and don't release any of that yucky water to the atmosphere without combusting it.
Boundless, some stuff you seem to know your stuff on - how the engine works and all that doesn't seem to be one of them for the most part.
Boundless - if you've done any maintenace on your car or examined how anything works espcially relevant to advice you offer you'd find you are kinda the lone man out.
the CCV had a TON of water vapor coming off it - yes that stuff can be easily and harmlessly combusted no problem and hence the CCV system.
The oil in the vapor is kinda the problem, not the water vapor. the oil collects along the whole intake pathway from just past the where the CCV connects to the intake all over the turbo, the intercooler, the charged air plumbing and finally it starts to be noticed most significantly at the intake manifold just downstream of where the exhaust gasses are re-circulated. If your car is producing any quantity of soot at any time it will get recycled and the soot particles will encounter the wall that is coated with oil and it will stick. A car without the CCV or with a filtered CCV will have a clean intake even with the EGR intact for the most part since a big portion of the soot is dry and will not adhere to the walls of the intake manifold. The oil acts like a glue, and then the soot from the EGR turns into a sponge and well it collects one layer at a time.
The water is a factor here in so much is as important as the oil vapor. The water will also join in the soot party - yeah it will mostly get boiled off but not after depositing the Sulfuric acid or reacting with the Exhaust gasses to form some nice stuff.
If anyone DOUBTS that there is water going through that CCV, tell ya what - simple simple experiment to do. Get some clear 3/4 ID hose - about 3 feet long - replace the stock CCV black plastic hose for a drive. take a look at that hose - preferably do it when the car is cold.
You will see a lot of water condensed along the hose.
The water itself isn't a problem, it is the oil vapor that the water carries out of the system and the dissolved acids and all that that is carried as well. Filter out the oil and you eliminate the soot build up and don't release any of that yucky water to the atmosphere without combusting it.
Boundless, some stuff you seem to know your stuff on - how the engine works and all that doesn't seem to be one of them for the most part.
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
- Joined
- Oct 13, 1998
- Location
- Boise, Idaho
- TDI
- 2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Skypup you rule!
Boundless your out there man! I had to place a small "metered leak" in by Racor CCV return line to prevent the moisture read "water" from building up in the line returning to the intake manifold. There is a LOT of moisture produced in these engines. And no it has not bent my connecting rods yet!
This is also why the best diesel oils use a high TBN additives package....moisture sulfur relationship, just maybe?
190 dgree thermostats to get the engine warm enough to dry out the engine AS WELL AS promote better combustion.
Water happens, it all part of the fossil fuel "thing"
Ever notice on cold days the moisture pumped out the tail pipe when at a standstill?
I wonder if all these water breathing TDI's have bent rods now..........
DB
Skypup you rule!
Boundless your out there man! I had to place a small "metered leak" in by Racor CCV return line to prevent the moisture read "water" from building up in the line returning to the intake manifold. There is a LOT of moisture produced in these engines. And no it has not bent my connecting rods yet!
This is also why the best diesel oils use a high TBN additives package....moisture sulfur relationship, just maybe?
190 dgree thermostats to get the engine warm enough to dry out the engine AS WELL AS promote better combustion.
Water happens, it all part of the fossil fuel "thing"
Ever notice on cold days the moisture pumped out the tail pipe when at a standstill?
I wonder if all these water breathing TDI's have bent rods now..........
DB
VelvetFoot
Top Post Dawg
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
mickey said:
"Not exactly. EGR alone will cause a horrible mess. Soot in the exhaust combined with water condensed out of the exhaust will cause thick, black sludge. If anything, the CCV gases help thin the stuff out a bit!
I didn't think you agreed with this thinking, Pete. I recall you saying you just had fluffy deposits from running only EGR.
Other than another kneejerk personal attack against a member of the forum, it appears that SP is in agreement with Boundless regarding the contribution of crankcase fumes in intake gunk formation.
mickey said:
"Not exactly. EGR alone will cause a horrible mess. Soot in the exhaust combined with water condensed out of the exhaust will cause thick, black sludge. If anything, the CCV gases help thin the stuff out a bit!
I didn't think you agreed with this thinking, Pete. I recall you saying you just had fluffy deposits from running only EGR.
Other than another kneejerk personal attack against a member of the forum, it appears that SP is in agreement with Boundless regarding the contribution of crankcase fumes in intake gunk formation.
M
mickey
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Jeez, boundless, get in the game! The only byproducts of COMPLETELY, 100% combusted hydrocarbons are carbon dioxide and WATER VAPOR. The more efficient your engine is, the more WATER VAPOR is in the exhaust! LOTS OF IT! Why do you think that modern cars generally come with stainless steel exhausts these days? Because all that water would rot them from the inside!
The water-cooled EGR in the TDI is especially nasty because it makes the water vapor condense out of the exhaust stream. Liquid water + soot + heat = SLUDGE.
Basic internal combustion fundamentals.
Now...would there be less sludge without the CCV? No doubt it would make a difference. But the vast majority of the crud comes from the EGR system and has nothing to do with CCV. If anything, the small amount of liquid oil that the CCV adds to the mix keeps the sludge a little softer and easier to clean out.
-mickey
Jeez, boundless, get in the game! The only byproducts of COMPLETELY, 100% combusted hydrocarbons are carbon dioxide and WATER VAPOR. The more efficient your engine is, the more WATER VAPOR is in the exhaust! LOTS OF IT! Why do you think that modern cars generally come with stainless steel exhausts these days? Because all that water would rot them from the inside!
The water-cooled EGR in the TDI is especially nasty because it makes the water vapor condense out of the exhaust stream. Liquid water + soot + heat = SLUDGE.
Basic internal combustion fundamentals.
Now...would there be less sludge without the CCV? No doubt it would make a difference. But the vast majority of the crud comes from the EGR system and has nothing to do with CCV. If anything, the small amount of liquid oil that the CCV adds to the mix keeps the sludge a little softer and easier to clean out.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How do I know it wouldn't be even FASTER with the cat cleaned out?
-mickey
M
mickey
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
If there is no water in exhaust, then why does STEAM come out of tailpipes on cold days?
-mickey
If there is no water in exhaust, then why does STEAM come out of tailpipes on cold days?
-mickey
S
SkyPup
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
The pathos is boundless!
LOL
The pathos is boundless!
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Who let the dogs out!
Who let the dogs out!
Ankle biters at that....
SkyPup is off double secret probation!!!!!
Folks, I never said there was no water in the exhaust. It is quite clear since I discuss its existance and acknowledge it. Heck, I was the one to teach SkyPup the result of combustion is CO2 & H2O. What you all have failed to do is prove your claim that the H2O is the major cause of the crud in the intakes.
So if we take a TDI on really long hard run on a hot day and get it good and hot for a really long time and then immediately take a look in the intake, it will be pristine clean? That is the implication of your water causing the intake sludge theory. Sorry, that theory won't hold water!!!!
Another implication of your position little ankle biters, is that the intake air, exhaust stream, and/or combination thereof, is saturated, or even supersaturated, with moisture all the time. No, that can't be.
What comes out the tailpipe on really cold days is irrelevant to this situtation in the intake.
fuhgedabowdit
DBW,
The plumbing of a Racor was my biggest concern for thermal management reasons. Thanks for the info. It's too bad you don't have it plumbed properly or proper thermal management. If you did, you wouldn't have the condensate problems.
The placement of the stock CCV plumbing is that way for very specific & highly technical reasons.
The plumbing of a Racor has to be a very specific way to prevent the conditions you described. To bad you obviously don't know how to plumb it.
From GeWilli:
mickey,
You think 190F coolant is going to condense out moisture from the exhaust stream? What's the temp of the exhaust stream? A couple hundred degrees.... Let's see, the coolant is 190F, only 22F from the boiling temp of water. Hmmmmm.... That's going to cool the several hundred degree exhaust stream to well below 212F to condense out moisture. NFW mickey, symptoms of hypoxia (altitude sickness) are cloudy judgement, stupor, incoherent, disoriented.. Look familiar?
Another gem from mickey:
Darn phizix.....
GoFaster says its the CCV oil, mickey & SkyPup say its the water.... this is too good. mickey mouse & goofy, even on their best days, don't stand a chance against GoFaster, even if he's sleeping.
Who let the dogs out!
Who let the dogs out!
Ankle biters at that....
SkyPup is off double secret probation!!!!!
Folks, I never said there was no water in the exhaust. It is quite clear since I discuss its existance and acknowledge it. Heck, I was the one to teach SkyPup the result of combustion is CO2 & H2O. What you all have failed to do is prove your claim that the H2O is the major cause of the crud in the intakes.
So if we take a TDI on really long hard run on a hot day and get it good and hot for a really long time and then immediately take a look in the intake, it will be pristine clean? That is the implication of your water causing the intake sludge theory. Sorry, that theory won't hold water!!!!
Another implication of your position little ankle biters, is that the intake air, exhaust stream, and/or combination thereof, is saturated, or even supersaturated, with moisture all the time. No, that can't be.
What comes out the tailpipe on really cold days is irrelevant to this situtation in the intake.
fuhgedabowdit
DBW,
The plumbing of a Racor was my biggest concern for thermal management reasons. Thanks for the info. It's too bad you don't have it plumbed properly or proper thermal management. If you did, you wouldn't have the condensate problems.
The placement of the stock CCV plumbing is that way for very specific & highly technical reasons.
The plumbing of a Racor has to be a very specific way to prevent the conditions you described. To bad you obviously don't know how to plumb it.
From GeWilli:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is my point exactly, but you're biting my ankles. In company like this, it's an honor to be the lone one out.
mickey,
You think 190F coolant is going to condense out moisture from the exhaust stream? What's the temp of the exhaust stream? A couple hundred degrees.... Let's see, the coolant is 190F, only 22F from the boiling temp of water. Hmmmmm.... That's going to cool the several hundred degree exhaust stream to well below 212F to condense out moisture. NFW mickey, symptoms of hypoxia (altitude sickness) are cloudy judgement, stupor, incoherent, disoriented.. Look familiar?
Another gem from mickey:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Blame it on the altitude....
Darn phizix.....
GoFaster says its the CCV oil, mickey & SkyPup say its the water.... this is too good. mickey mouse & goofy, even on their best days, don't stand a chance against GoFaster, even if he's sleeping.
S
SkyPup
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
No one ever thought you'd understand anything as complicated as water.
No one ever thought you'd understand anything as complicated as water.
**DONOTDELETE**
New member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 1969
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Ok, this is starting to become a dumb discussion...
Charlene has very manly hands! You must be some kinda wyseguy.
I guess a breather filter can be made with an oil bottle, a breather valve from Crappy Tire or the Piper, and a connection out of top of the bottle, placed inline with the CCV? That's all it is, right?
* Would the Polyethylene bottle handle the pressure or is the vent out gonna get rid of it?
* How much gas are we talking about there?
Ok, this is starting to become a dumb discussion...
Charlene has very manly hands! You must be some kinda wyseguy.
I guess a breather filter can be made with an oil bottle, a breather valve from Crappy Tire or the Piper, and a connection out of top of the bottle, placed inline with the CCV? That's all it is, right?
* Would the Polyethylene bottle handle the pressure or is the vent out gonna get rid of it?
* How much gas are we talking about there?
S
SkyPup
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Some find the absolute function of the EGR difficult to understand. However it is simply to introduce water vapor into the inlet charge through the intake manifold EGR vavle, in conjunction with CO2, to lower the peak combustion pressure and peak temperatures to cause a decrease in NOx emissions.
The application of EGR in diesel engines results in modifying
both the composition (addition of CO2 and H2O)
and physical conditions (temperature, density) of the inlet
charge.
These modifications, in turn, affect the combustion
process and, consequently, the exhaust emissions.
With EGR, the introduction of carbon dioxide and water
vapour in the inlet charge at the expense of oxygen displacement,
results in increasing the ignition delay period
giving more time for the spray to penetrate and the
auto-ignition locations to be shifted towards the wall of
the combustion chamber.
This results in an increase in the volume of the combustion flames. In turn,
the enlargement of the flame volume encloses larger
amounts of gases that absorb more energy released by
combustion, leading to lower combustion temperatures
and, ultimately, to reduced NOx emissions.
LOL
And the CCV is to remove the water vapor in the crankcase!
Way too difficult to understand.........
Some find the absolute function of the EGR difficult to understand. However it is simply to introduce water vapor into the inlet charge through the intake manifold EGR vavle, in conjunction with CO2, to lower the peak combustion pressure and peak temperatures to cause a decrease in NOx emissions.
The application of EGR in diesel engines results in modifying
both the composition (addition of CO2 and H2O)
and physical conditions (temperature, density) of the inlet
charge.
These modifications, in turn, affect the combustion
process and, consequently, the exhaust emissions.
With EGR, the introduction of carbon dioxide and water
vapour in the inlet charge at the expense of oxygen displacement,
results in increasing the ignition delay period
giving more time for the spray to penetrate and the
auto-ignition locations to be shifted towards the wall of
the combustion chamber.
This results in an increase in the volume of the combustion flames. In turn,
the enlargement of the flame volume encloses larger
amounts of gases that absorb more energy released by
combustion, leading to lower combustion temperatures
and, ultimately, to reduced NOx emissions.
And the CCV is to remove the water vapor in the crankcase!
Way too difficult to understand.........
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
- Joined
- Oct 13, 1998
- Location
- Boise, Idaho
- TDI
- 2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Actually the Racor unit is plumbed in about as good as it can get. The problem is when outside air temps hit 0F and the CCV gasses are at whatever they are inside the motor that they condense very quickly on there way to the intake duct. I could probably insulat them but I would prefer to just let them drip out after shutdown and retain the view into the clear tubing.
DB
Actually the Racor unit is plumbed in about as good as it can get. The problem is when outside air temps hit 0F and the CCV gasses are at whatever they are inside the motor that they condense very quickly on there way to the intake duct. I could probably insulat them but I would prefer to just let them drip out after shutdown and retain the view into the clear tubing.
DB
AutoDiesel
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2000
- Location
- Pacific Northwest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
Charlene,
You can listen to all of the arguments about what and when and why or you can do a couple of very simple things.
Use the best quality fuel available - I use at least B50 biodiesel.
Use a good fuel additive - like PowerService or Redline 85.
Use a high quality synthetic motor oil - I use Chevron Delo Synthetic 5w-40.
I've used B50 for almost 10k miles now and have used Redline additives whenever the fuel ratio favors dino-diesel or when on a trip when a supply of biodiesel is not available. I don't have any build-up at all of soot residue. Only a oily film in front of the EGR valve and in the intake. I don't like disconnecting emission control devices.
But it is your car and do whatever you feel is best for it and for you!
Charlene,
You can listen to all of the arguments about what and when and why or you can do a couple of very simple things.
Use the best quality fuel available - I use at least B50 biodiesel.
Use a good fuel additive - like PowerService or Redline 85.
Use a high quality synthetic motor oil - I use Chevron Delo Synthetic 5w-40.
I've used B50 for almost 10k miles now and have used Redline additives whenever the fuel ratio favors dino-diesel or when on a trip when a supply of biodiesel is not available. I don't have any build-up at all of soot residue. Only a oily film in front of the EGR valve and in the intake. I don't like disconnecting emission control devices.
But it is your car and do whatever you feel is best for it and for you!
S
SkyPup
Guest
Re: Whoa... this can\'t be good [pic]
LOL, boundless you are really out of it!
Sludge - A thick, dark residue, normally of mayonnaise consistency, that accumulates on nonmoving engine interior surfaces. Caused by the interaction of water, acids, and soot carbon particles. Generally removable by wiping unless baked to a carbonaceous consistency.
Mobil Oil Technical Bulletin #863 - "Oil does not ever wear out, breakdown or otherwise deteriorate to such an extent that it needs to be changed. It simply becomes contaminated with water, acids, and carbon particles that form sludge. The engine's oil filter(s) can only remove solid particles above a certain size. It (they) cannot remove the water, acids, carbon particles or sludge formed from these materials all of which pass through the filter(s) just as readily as the oil."
Deposit build-up in diesel engines is influenced by diesel fuel quality. Fuels that leave a heavy carbon residue and contain excessive amounts of high boiling point materials are prone to cause engine deposits. Therefore, limits are placed on carbon residue and ASTM D 86 90% evaporated temperature.
LOL, this is like shooting ducks in a bathtub!!!!
Sludge - A thick, dark residue, normally of mayonnaise consistency, that accumulates on nonmoving engine interior surfaces. Caused by the interaction of water, acids, and soot carbon particles. Generally removable by wiping unless baked to a carbonaceous consistency.
Mobil Oil Technical Bulletin #863 - "Oil does not ever wear out, breakdown or otherwise deteriorate to such an extent that it needs to be changed. It simply becomes contaminated with water, acids, and carbon particles that form sludge. The engine's oil filter(s) can only remove solid particles above a certain size. It (they) cannot remove the water, acids, carbon particles or sludge formed from these materials all of which pass through the filter(s) just as readily as the oil."
Deposit build-up in diesel engines is influenced by diesel fuel quality. Fuels that leave a heavy carbon residue and contain excessive amounts of high boiling point materials are prone to cause engine deposits. Therefore, limits are placed on carbon residue and ASTM D 86 90% evaporated temperature.
LOL, this is like shooting ducks in a bathtub!!!!
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