350-400 hp build for pulling tractor?

Hi all. New to the VW community, so looking for some help. I'm curious to see what all it would take to make a 1.9 tdi out of a 99-1/2 Jetta put out around 350 to 400 hp? I've searched the forums, but everything on high power builds has been centered around street cars. Here's what I know so far, and what I'm thinking:

-The motor has about 250k miles, so guessing it would need freshening
-I know the obvious answer is money, but ballpark of how much, and what all would I need to get?
-This would be going in a mini rod pulling tractor, so lag won't really be an issue since I can spool it at the line
- I would prefer not to run an intercooler, but can throw methanol injection at it
- thinking maybe twins to keep egt's down?

Please let me know your thoughts, or direct me to who'd be able to help. Thank you!

If you have access to some fabrication facilities, I'd throw a figure like 12k.

Turbo lag is not the issue - compressor surge is. I don't see a path to do this without 2 stage turbocharging.

Intercooler - yes, methanol - no, unless you want some like this to happen:
https://youtu.be/kCsSVLZ6wCI

Well that would be an exciting pull at least! Haven't seen any of our mini rods do something like that yet.

I don't see an intercooler doing much good though when the tractors typically only get to 25 mph or so. I was hoping methanol or water would keep it cool enough. Maybe nitrous to cool the charge?

It think it would cost you less, and your goals would be much easier to achieve if you started with a PD engine. Passat North American BHW or European PD130/150. The initial purchase of the engine is the least of concern. You will need to pull pistons, rods and build head. There are enough examples of PD's running 320-380 to know it is reasonably achievable. It would be hard to find an ALH engine running that sort of power other than ANDY2.

I'm not opposed to starting with a different motor. A friend has the ALH and I could get cheap, but if I would be building a time bomb or have way more into it I can find something else. Limited by weight, so likely going to need to stay with a 4 cylinder, but open to other options.

Easier path indeed to big HP numbers with a PD or even CR. Apart from Andy2, I have not seen any 400+ HP or even 350+ actually realized in a VE, even though in theory it's possible (I have even done the calcs). The main issue is finding a combination of injectors and pump that will supply the needed fuel in a short injection window and sufficiently high pressure.

Andy is definitely your man to take note from to build a hi-po VE, he's done it and that says a lot. With all due respect to him, his approach is by brute force. But it works and I tip my hat to him.

To the OP what are the rules in your class assuming that there is one or would this be an exhibition puller ?

I put a highly modded Bosch "A" pump on my ALH based engine much like the pulllers did before me across the pond.Mine was built by Wimers fuel injection in Sandy Lake,PA. Keeping the plunger size smaller will help keep the pump alive.I ran 10mm elements (plungers) @ 250cc's and they did not last with high RPM.Perhaps a DLC coated plunger would last better but I'd say to stick with a 9 or 9.5mm plunger to make it last and still get 350-400 hp.

I ran staged/compound turbo's (100-120 psi boost) with an air to air intercooler and a stock ALH camshaft. The turbo's were 51mm/60mm compressor inducer.I'm not sure if the combustion pressure would have held with the OEM cyl head as we made an Iron Cylinder head to try and ensure that the cylinder pressure didn't leak at all.My engine made 429 bhp and ran fairly hot EGT's while doing so.

If you are only allowed to run a single turbo then perhaps an hx35 or hx35/hx40 hybrid might work best for example and should get you to 350 hp.Water injection will be a must with or without intercooling.

I'm assuming that the compact tractor pullers overseas are only allowed to run one stage as I don't think I've seen any with 2 turbo's.

I agree with TDIMeister about the easier path to 350-400 hp being done with a PD or CR engine.Unless you have connections with a fuel injection shop and/or like to fabricate brackets and/or want to or need to keep the engine "Mechanically fueled" then stay away from the ALH.

Others overseas have made the VE engine with the VP pump make good power so there is hope however you would need to talk to those guys about your project.Perhaps some of them will chime in ? They run a fairly large turbo that might not spool up well enough for your application though.

The PD engine should be the ticket to get the numbers you are after.Nozzles and tuning are much cheaper and easier than building an injection pump and injectors I would think ? I'd say that Darkside developments has more than proved that point !!

Darkside and others have proved that less turbo/boost will do the job.Also if you run a PD or CR and are allowed to run nitrous then you won't need as much turbo either.

A lightweight engine like the 1.9-2.0 TDI is a good option for the HP level you are after however stumbing upon some old ALH powered car may not be the best start.

The higher injection pressure of the PD and CR is where its at.Mabye pick up some PD or CR powered car and harvest it for your project.

Good post

350+hp is possible from VP.
Our team is planing to hit 400hp next year.
1.9TDI 357hp 544Nm




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for all the advice so far, and for the big write up Andy2! That's some insane boost levels!

As far as rules, this is an actual class. Currently there's a 4BT Cummins and a 2.2 Izuzu motor. The Izuzu had a bunch done to it to keep competitive. Our saving grace is that we're limited on tire size and weight. Beyond those two rules, and basic safety stuff, our only other diesel rule is that engines under 3.0L can run twins, but over 3.0 are limited to one.

I was hoping compounding twins with water injection would be enough to keep egt's safe. I do have a nitrous kit sitting around collecting dust, but would prefer not to have to use it and add more weight

So by what I'm understanding so far, best to scrap the ALH idea and go with a PD or CR motor for simplicity's sake. I can fabricate brackets and have a basic lathe and mill, but sounds like I may be better off going newer.

Any recommendations for non-ic setup on one of those?

@ Jukums: can you tell us more about your setup?

CR would be better but not cheaper. If you can run NOS it helps.

Quite a few guys in Europe run TDI's in the garden pulling class, power usually unknown but north of 400hp and engine life is in seconds.

TDIpuller said:

Any recommendations for non-ic setup on one of those?

Click to expand...

You can exploit insane boost levels like andy2 and actually utilize it for charge cooling. Look up the Joule-Thomson Effect. Still involves heat exchangers though. Otherwise inject LOW % methanol/water like windshield washer fluid in the intake ports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCtvWVVg4dI
Old clip

3-4 different teams in Holland has bought rods from me
They run insane rpms,around 9000 or so if i remember right
One local guy here sold special turbos to them
As far as i know they are only allowed 1 turbo and diesel only
Not sure if this class exist anymore

Tdimeister
Why you want to use just the Joule thomsen effekt instead of using a extra turbo and do a adiabatic and closer to isentropic expansion like in brayton cycle just you have same medium on compressor and turbine side? Just isentalph expansion would have big irreversible losses to gain to put out low temperature, and even the extra turbo would need quite good turbine and compressor efficiency to be of benefit of this procedure...

TDIMeister said:

You can exploit insane boost levels like andy2 and actually utilize it for charge cooling. Look up the Joule-Thomson Effect. Still involves heat exchangers though. Otherwise inject LOW % methanol/water like windshield washer fluid in the intake ports.

Click to expand...

I am indeed talking about doing Joule-Thomson with a turbo-expander, not an expansion valve, like you say.

But for whatever reason, the Op is averse to using any kind of heat exchangers, so it's a moot point.

Tdimeister
Have you tried this in real, I am building one but have some things to think about before going ahead again

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3696577&highlight=Joule+thomson#post3696577

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3070677#post3070677

Tdimeister, a simple no would be sufficient.

Just for highlighting the joule thomsen effekt in compare to a expansion

Take 10 bar to 5 bar from 300K for nitrogen will give a few degrees drop in temperature

A isentropic expansion would give a 50 degrees temperature drop, since the turbine efficiency is very poor in real this will be much less, if we regard nitrogen as perfect gas and turbines efficiency is 50% it mean 25 degrees temperature drop over turbine

By this you understand the turbo chargers turbine and compressor efficiency need to be very high and temperature in exhaust need to be high/very high to make meaning or use, with another word instead of open waste gate boost all the way without ridiculous exhaust back pressure build up by poor turbine efficiency...

Just look in the figure 2 on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule–Thomson_effect

joule thomsen constant entalpi, follow blue line from one pressure to the next and take the temperature

expansion by turbine under isentropic condition (s is constant) right down in the diagram

TDIMeister said:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3696577&highlight=Joule+thomson#post3696577

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3070677#post3070677

Click to expand...

TDIMeister said:

I am indeed talking about doing Joule-Thomson with a turbo-expander, not an expansion valve, like you say.

But for whatever reason, the Op is averse to using any kind of heat exchangers, so it's a moot point.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say no to a heat exchanger, but I don't know if it would do any good at such low speed? Space is an issue though due to the size of the tractor. The tdi motor should be a couple inches shorter than the current v8 I'm running, but still not giving much room, or would be in the way of plumbing.

I thought about a liquid to air setup, but then adding a bunch more weight and having to bring ice to every pull to be the most effective would be a pain.

I would think replacing your current V8 setup with a 4 cyl tdi would free up a bunch of weight- allowing for a air to water intercooler. Unless you want to pull in another lighter class. There must be weight restrictions, right? Otherwise, I'd think extra weight is beneficial. Bringing a small cooler with ice and beverages shouldn't be a huge deal.

turbobrick240 said:

I would think replacing your current V8 setup with a 4 cyl tdi would free up a bunch of weight- allowing for a air to water intercooler. Unless you want to pull in another lighter class. There must be weight restrictions, right? Otherwise, I'd think extra weight is beneficial. Bringing a small cooler with ice and beverages shouldn't be a huge deal.

Click to expand...

The current v8 only weighs about 400-450 lbs (all aluminum Cadillac Northstar). The v8 class I'm in runs 1,600 and 1,700 lbs. The tractor, with me on it, no weights added, weighs in at 1450 lb. Our diesel class wind at 1800 and 1900 lbs. So yes, I can afford some added weight, if I have room to fit it physically on the tractor. Carrying ice isn't a deal breaker, but just is something else to cart along each time.

Turbo Z said:

Tdimeister, a simple no would be sufficient.

Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass by my last post. You asked whether I had done it "in real." My post was simply a response to that. I had done simulations a number of years ago into this using GT-POWER while employed for an engine development company, so it wasn't just for fun. What do you mean by "real?" Did hardware get put into a road car? No. Were simulations done on a professional engine software to characterize and understand the effects and benefits? Yes. So I'd say I've done more "real" than most...

And if you read the posts in the links given in my last post as well as what I said earlier on this thread, everything I said agrees with the statement that expanding it along an isentrope (using a turboexpander) is better than throttling with a valve (isenthalpic). I also state in those posts, in agreement with you, that highly efficient machines are required so that don't have an adverse exhaust back pressure to develop all that extra boost required to drive the system.

I'm really curious about what turbo(s) that "Jukums" is using ? And if they are are using NOS ?

My current setup ran less boost than the old 2011 combo.Last time I had my engine under load it produced around 85 psi with 1500 deg F exh temp.That was with 58 and 72mm compressor inducer compound's.Air flow improvements have lowered the boost.I still have no trouble with surge and can make use of the 68mm high pressure turbine exducer.Only trouble now is lack of compression due to collapsed compression ring lands.

Too much heat/pressure last year took its toll on the Diamond pistons.Diamond can make steel pistons for us if we chose to go through with it.

You mention nitrous and a 4bt that would be limited to a single turbo.

I'd think that would be the path of least resistance, as they're stoutly built to the point that 400hp is not near the
bleeding edge of reliability, in fact it's only like 100hp/liter with a lot more mass compared to a much lighter built
engine doing over 200hp/liter.

unless you can run too much nitrous with a diesel, having no experience I've always thought it was like air, where
leaner is gentler but I guess I could see pistons burning with too much of an oxidizing charge. Otherwise, who
needs air when you can get much more oxygen in there through other means. Run something like a K33 with
its 67mm ind/102mm exd,

andy2 said:

I'm really curious about what turbo(s) that "Jukums" is using ? And if they are are using NOS ?

My current setup ran less boost than the old 2011 combo.Last time I had my engine under load it produced around 85 psi with 1500 deg F exh temp.That was with 58 and 72mm compressor inducer compound's.Air flow improvements have lowered the boost.I still have no trouble with surge and can make use of the 68mm high pressure turbine exducer.Only trouble now is lack of compression due to collapsed compression ring lands.

Too much heat/pressure last year took its toll on the Diamond pistons.Diamond can make steel pistons for us if we chose to go through with it.

Click to expand...

We are not using NOS. Only diesel + water/methanol injection.
There is single turbo GTB2265VK more detailed information can be found here - http://www.tdr.lv/projekti/
As you can see in dyno sheet, max power is reached at 5,1k rpm, after that power is almost flat till 7k rpm !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2BQbTnWfyo

Nice! Are you using any different camshaft?

Yes. Gasser camshaft from G60 engine with solid lifters

[486] said:

You mention nitrous and a 4bt that would be limited to a single turbo.

I'd think that would be the path of least resistance, as they're stoutly built to the point that 400hp is not near the
bleeding edge of reliability, in fact it's only like 100hp/liter with a lot more mass compared to a much lighter built
engine doing over 200hp/liter.

unless you can run too much nitrous with a diesel, having no experience I've always thought it was like air, where
leaner is gentler but I guess I could see pistons burning with too much of an oxidizing charge. Otherwise, who
needs air when you can get much more oxygen in there through other means. Run something like a K33 with
its 67mm ind/102mm exd,

Click to expand...

Yes, the 4BT would be much easier. Throw a 6BT turbo on it and a couple tweaks to the pump (pretty much all that is done to the one I'd be running against) and make good power and loads of torque, without sacrificing any reliability. But why make it easy on myself, haha! Size restraint is the problem once again. The 4BT would either be dragging on the ground or sticking through the hood. Only way I'm going to be able to use one of those is to build a whole new tractor. Not that I can't, but just trying to see the feasibility of running a smaller displacement setup. I know I'll have more into it this way, and will have plenty of challenges, but I like to be different too.

Using HP/L is a poor way of comparing what a TDI and 4BT can do. Better for analyzing engine performance over a range of scale is BMEP and mean piston speed. A stock 4BT makes rated power at what - 2400 RPM - compared to 3750 for an ALH (with both capable of more but we'll get to that next). Mean piston speeds are 9.52 and 14.875 m/s respectively. If we limit mean piston speed for both to 18 m/s, which is far more physically meaningful than tossing RPM about independent of engine dimensions, this gives 4537 RPM for the 4BT and 5654 RPM for a TDI.

At those respective RPMs, developing 400 BHP would require BMEPs of 20.3 bar for the 4BT and 33.4 bar for the TDI.

Now it becomes easier to evaluate which is easier to realize, which will cost more to build, and which is working "harder" - a measure of engine stresses and durability.