NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

tdipoet

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Experienced a High Pressure Fuel Pump Failure on a 2010 Golf TDI at 39,000 miles in February 2012. Despite being out of warranty, VW replaced the entire fuel system (approximately $6000 dollars worth of parts- not including labor.) I asked the dealer how long my fuel system is covered for if the pump fails again. Was told 12 months or 12,000 miles. There is no guarantee they will cover this failure the next time.

I don't mind spending money to fix my car but I have never owned a car where a single failure has the potential to coast so much. Bottom line: Unless VW decides to extend the warranties on the HPFS to at least 100K, I plan to sell the car in the next 12 months / 12,000 miles.

My guess is that, because my repair was covered by VW, my failure will not show up in the investigation.

100k isn't good enough. this is a serious design flaw.
 

gumaku1

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Ford knew that US fuels have low lubricity and requested the HPFP supplier to supply a "wear" package for their pumps.....

Check this out from Ford's answer to NHTSA:
1As previously noted, because the "peer vehicles~ are trucks, which typically are subject to
much more severe service than the vehicles that are the subject of this investigation, and are
frequently used in fleet service, may be driven by numerous operators, and may not receive the
same maintenance and care as a personally owned vehicle, these trucks may not be "peers" in
the sense the agency typically compares "peer vehicles.~
misfuelling event where the customer either intentionally or unintentionally adds a contaminant
to the fuel tank, or can occur when a customer ignores fuel related warnings, such as the water
in fuel warning light on the instrument cluster. This is also
why Ford's systems incorporate
features to help protect against poor quality fuels, such as the water in fuel separator system.
During development of the 6.7L engine, Ford further addressed the risk of low lubricity fuel by
specifying that HPFPs include a "wear package" that the supplier had developed
for pumps that
were intended for use in markets where low lubricity fuel was known to be a concern.
 

GoFaster

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If there is one single known case of HPFP failure that pre-dates the date of the first failure in NHTSA's data set, that IMMEDIATELY proves that NHTSA does not have ALL of the failure data in their hands.

Whether this is by error or by intent is something that cannot be known.
 

RebelTDI

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[


[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the data. One thing to notice is the very wide variation in wear scar scores in the US and even the EU. There are less data points from S. America, so if they obtained more I bet you would see some bad numbers there. Mexico had some bad numbers. I like the extra insurance of adding good quality BD to 2%. Even running 2% BD can't stop failures due to manufacturing defects that will be present in low frequencies.
 

pknopp

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I believe that VW is actively impeding the NHTSA investigation, and has not been forthcoming with requested data. You believe otherwise.

I guess we'll eventually see who's opinion is correct.
Are they likely dragging their feet? I don't doubt that they are. That doesn't mean that they are going to misreport the numbers.
 

timwagon

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Are they likely dragging their feet? I don't doubt that they are. That doesn't mean that they are going to misreport the numbers.
That doesn't mean that they aren't going to misreport the numbers.

As I said, we'll just need to see how this all plays out...
 

pknopp

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That doesn't mean that they aren't going to misreport the numbers.

As I said, we'll just need to see how this all plays out...
LOL, whatever. I'm betting that if the numbers come back as something like less than a half percent with a problem the arguement will go that it is only because the numbers are wrong.

They are sure that 2 were missed in Arizona, 1 in California and another in Georgia.

A handful of missed pumps will make absolutely no difference in whatever the end result is.

NHTSA isn't going to rule that they have information that out of 180,000 cars 190 had a failed HPFP before 100,000 so they are going to rule one way but if there had simply been 15 more they would have ruled otherwise.

I think there are some who are outright upset that these cars are not failing left and right.
 

GTIDan

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LOL, whatever. I'm betting that if the numbers come back as something like less than a half percent with a problem the arguement will go that it is only because the numbers are wrong.

They are sure that 2 were missed in Arizona, 1 in California and another in Georgia.

A handful of missed pumps will make absolutely no difference in whatever the end result is.

NHTSA isn't going to rule that they have information that out of 180,000 cars 190 had a failed HPFP before 100,000 so they are going to rule one way but if there had simply been 15 more they would have ruled otherwise.

I think there are some who are outright upset that these cars are not failing left and right.

You think? LOL
 

T Girl

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Can you clarify some things for me (I keep a spreadsheet of the TDI Club pumps)? Normally, a pump will say "BPT ####" and either have numbers under it or not. Both are always four digits. In your case, you have "BPY 070757" - should it be something like "BPT 0757" or is it really as you wrote? Also, did you notice any green or yellow dots near the label?
I will check again and get back with you.
 

pknopp

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And then there are those of us that are concerned, disgusted, and upset that these are failing in the first place.
I understand the concern over the poor design. Whoever designed it should indeed be fired or regulated to the janitorial staff but as far as the failures go, it still seems the odds are incredibly small.
 

tdiatlast

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....I think there are some who are outright upset that these cars are not failing left and right.
I've said from the very beginning that those of us that are proactively trying to prevent HPFP failure are in fact covering VWoA's arse.

Keep in mind, though, that we Club members are a very small percentage of TDI owners. The number of failures is, sadly, just not enough to get the attention it deserves.
 

pknopp

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I've said from the very beginning that those of us that are proactively trying to prevent HPFP failure are in fact covering VWoA's arse.

Keep in mind, though, that we Club members are a very small percentage of TDI owners. The number of failures is, sadly, just not enough to get the attention it deserves.
Sorry, not to beat a dead horse. Say there have been 250 failures, many because the owners used the wrong fuel out of whatever the number is now.....160,000 cars. How much attention do you think that should create?
 

lynnejohn

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Sorry, not to beat a dead horse. Say there have been 250 failures, many because the owners used the wrong fuel out of whatever the number is now.....160,000 cars. How much attention do you think that should create?
My opinion is that it should get ~$8K per repair worth of attention. If the price for repair were anywhere near reasonable (say 1.5K), this possible failure would be aggravating instead of going to "wait on the sideline" until a better HPFP comes out.
 

truman

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Since the failure rate is so low, why doesn't VW provide at least a 150k no fault warranty on the HPFP system? The cost/unit couldn't amount to much- could it?
 

kjclow

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I think there are some who are outright upset that these cars are not failing left and right.
Those that have had failures are probably wishing more failures would show up so that VW can be taken to the woodshed and have their backside tanned.:D Seriously, I can't imagine wishing this failure even on my old neighbors.:rolleyes:
 

joseph2012

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It's the $8000 repair cost that concerns me. VW's position on this matter is that I should get the Real Driver Warranty. My first concern it that if I were to experience another fuel pump failure, Fidelity Warranty Services, the company that manages the warrranty would attempt to find an excuse not to pay for the repair. My second concern is that I can only extend the warranty to 100K miles. I bought my Golf TDI, so I could drive it back and forth between Los Angeles and Phoenix three times a month with the intention of keeping it for several hundred thousand miles. I have no problem spending money to keep an older car running but having to spend $8000 for a failed fuel pump seems excessive. Argueably, the collateral damage caused by the metal fragments could also be considered a design flaw.
 
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pknopp

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My opinion is that it should get ~$8K per repair worth of attention. If the price for repair were anywhere near reasonable (say 1.5K), this possible failure would be aggravating instead of going to "wait on the sideline" until a better HPFP comes out.
Replace it with the timing belt. From what I've seen someone should be able to make a rebuild kit pretty cheap.
 

Niner

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Replace it with the timing belt. From what I've seen someone should be able to make a rebuild kit pretty cheap.
What's the point, if the HPFP design is deemed defective? The new pump you install is still a crap shoot... there is nothing in the design to keep the roller and the piston it drives, aligned with the cam surface, it is free to rotate either way in the bore. That is a design defect, IMHO.

It was addressed and patented by Delphi, and VW bought the improved Delphi design for their 1.2 TDI in European markets.

THAT is the smoking gun, in my opinion, VW blew off Bosch fuel systems after all these years together and went with Delphi for their fueling needs on the smaller TDI. Profit margin is smaller on the Polo, VW couldn't afford to eat the warranty repairs on it, like they did with the Bosch systems.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Replace it with the timing belt. From what I've seen someone should be able to make a rebuild kit pretty cheap.
You imply from the statement "from what I've seen someone should be able to make a rebuild kit pretty cheap" that will solve the issue (I guess you assume it will be fail safe or if it fails it will not contaminate the fuel system or cause stalling in traffic) and that there will be a market for an untested / unproven kit.

Oh and don't come back with then rebuild your HPFPs every oil change so the chance of failure is ever lower. "Band-aids" whether evey year, oil change, timing belt change are not a fix. :D

From the evidence I've seen over the last 2+ years, like Niner says: "there is nothing in the design to keep the roller and the piston it drives, aligned with the cam surface, it is free to rotate either way in the bore." Couple this with continued use of US poor fuel quality and :eek:.:D
 

kjclow

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Check and/or replaec at the timing blet change is not really a good option either, since these cars have a 120K miles timing belt interval.
 

pknopp

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What's the point, if the HPFP design is deemed defective? The new pump you install is still a crap shoot... there is nothing in the design to keep the roller and the piston it drives, aligned with the cam surface, it is free to rotate either way in the bore. That is a design defect, IMHO.
IF it's deemed defective. I hope VW offers me an extended 150,000 warranty, just because......but with the low numbers that can showed to have failed outside of the actions of the owners, I'm not counting on it.

It was addressed and patented by Delphi, and VW bought the improved Delphi design for their 1.2 TDI in European markets.

THAT is the smoking gun, in my opinion, VW blew off Bosch fuel systems after all these years together and went with Delphi for their fueling needs on the smaller TDI. Profit margin is smaller on the Polo, VW couldn't afford to eat the warranty repairs on it, like they did with the Bosch systems.
It's pretty common for a manufacturer to go with a newer design in newer cars.

When turbo's first came out they weren't lubricated or cooled (other than air) in any form. They generally didn't last long. Manufacturers didn't have to recall them, they simply had to improve them.

It's a poor design, no doubt. I just figure that the aftermarket is going to be the answer and not VW or the government. I certainly do not want to replace things that I shouldn't have to but if the end numbers end up far higher than they currently are, that's what my plans are in the future.

If VW offers something, great, but I'm doubting it.
 

pknopp

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You imply from the statement "from what I've seen someone should be able to make a rebuild kit pretty cheap" that will solve the issue (I guess you assume it will be fail safe or if it fails it will not contaminate the fuel system or cause stalling in traffic) and that there will be a market for an untested / unproven kit.
No, this would be before there is a failure.

Oh and don't come back with then rebuild your HPFPs every oil change so the chance of failure is ever lower. "Band-aids" whether evey year, oil change, timing belt change are not a fix. :D

From the evidence I've seen over the last 2+ years, like Niner says: "there is nothing in the design to keep the roller and the piston it drives, aligned with the cam surface, it is free to rotate either way in the bore." Couple this with continued use of US poor fuel quality and :eek:.:D
From what I've seen, it's not a big problem. (other than cost for the very few who run into it later on)
 

pknopp

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Check and/or replaec at the timing blet change is not really a good option either, since these cars have a 120K miles timing belt interval.
I'm seeing far more cars show up with 120,000 plus miles than HPFP failures.
 

lynnejohn

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I'm seeing far more cars show up with 120,000 plus miles than HPFP failures.
So when your car gets to 140K and then your HPFP goes, your car gets sold for parts instead of simply replacing the broken part. Quality used vehicles with 140K-160k are worth 3K-6K (a 2002 Toyota Camry in good shape with 150K is worth about 4K.) Anybody that owns a used car that is in need of a repair balances the cost of doing the repair against using the same money on getting another vehicle. The cost of replacing the HPFP is unlike any repair ever needing to be done on a VW with high miles. Your only hope against this is that some company will come along and sell a HPFP kit that will bring your TDI back into a "normal" used vehicle repair cycle. What are the odds of a company doing that?
 

gumaku1

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why not just replace the HPFP after so many miles as a normal service? What is the cost to replace the HPFP vs. replacing the HPFP after it fails and takes out the entire fuel system?
 

NateTDI

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why not just replace the HPFP after so many miles as a normal service? What is the cost to replace the HPFP vs. replacing the HPFP after it fails and takes out the entire fuel system?
It's a crapshoot. The replacement may be the one that fails.
 
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