Emissions Fix Induced Turbo Failures

tdi_spec

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Jul 17, 2012
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North Las Vegas, NV
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2012 Tornado Red Golf TDI
Have you guys been hearing about any sudden increase of turbocharger failures in the 2.0 TDI vehicles after having the emissions recall performed? Mine (2012 Golf) failed about 5,000 miles after the work was done (~77,000 miles on the car) and while dropping the car off at the dealership, a 2009 Jetta TDI was being dropped off under almost identical circumstances that led to a turbo failure. Is this indicative of a more widespread issue or just a coincidence?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Possibly, but the CR turbochargers fail a lot more than the PD and VE ones did anyway, so really tough to say if the update is THE problem or makes an already weak(ish) turbo even weaker.

Deleted cars do not seem to have this problem.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Do the CR turbos run at higher pressures or are they just a weaker design?
They have to deal with DPF regens.

That is done by choking off some airflow, and overfueling the engine, to cause the EGTs to skyrocket. Everything turbochargers do not like.

Since the CR engines get the less robust BW turbos (instead of Garret), they are already going to be more failure prone anyway. But add the DPF on, and they really do not like it.

Keep in mind, the overall failure rate may be 10x that of the old ALH engines, it is still a small percentage of the cars, but higher than ideal.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
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Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
They also run at higher pressures, higher temperatures, and higher overall stress that's not always linked to engine load. (EG, during the emissions equipment warm up routine after a cold start)

-J
 

tdi_spec

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Location
North Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2012 Tornado Red Golf TDI
They have to deal with DPF regens.
That is done by choking off some airflow, and overfueling the engine, to cause the EGTs to skyrocket. Everything turbochargers do not like.
Since the CR engines get the less robust BW turbos (instead of Garret), they are already going to be more failure prone anyway. But add the DPF on, and they really do not like it.
Keep in mind, the overall failure rate may be 10x that of the old ALH engines, it is still a small percentage of the cars, but higher than ideal.
It sounds like there is at least a potential that the strategy they developed to bring down the emissions may be placing additional stress on the turbo thus leading to premature failure.
 

D-Cup

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Jul 22, 2017
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San Antonio TX
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2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition, 2003 Jetta GLS, 2000 Jetta GLS, 2012 JSW
Recommendations (brand/model) for replacement turbo?
Im only ~3k miles post fix (CJAA) but I'd rather shop now and be prepared rather than trying to shop in a scrambling rush because I need my car.
I already know I'll go with a CP3 if my HPFP goes - I'd like to have a product picked out if the turbo goes and VW won't cover it.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, upgrade."

EDIT: No, I haven't done a search for turbo replacement/upgrades. I'll do that now. Sorry.
I appreciate any suggestions from oilhammer or anyone else familiar with these. Thanks.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I am not aware of any more durable stock drop in replacement turbochargers beyond anything BW has already improved upon already since the car left the factory.

A CR170 turbo is more of a power adding upgrade, and would go hand in hand with a software update, which pretty much goes without saying that it will be used with a delete setup, in which case the turbo will no longer have to deal with a DPF anyway.
 

tdi_spec

Active member
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
Location
North Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2012 Tornado Red Golf TDI
Recommendations (brand/model) for replacement turbo?
Im only ~3k miles post fix (CJAA) but I'd rather shop now and be prepared rather than trying to shop in a scrambling rush because I need my car.
I already know I'll go with a CP3 if my HPFP goes - I'd like to have a product picked out if the turbo goes and VW won't cover it.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, upgrade."

EDIT: No, I haven't done a search for turbo replacement/upgrades. I'll do that now. Sorry.
I appreciate any suggestions from oilhammer or anyone else familiar with these. Thanks.
You really shouldn't need to worry about aftermarket stuff (unless you want it anyway) as the VW warranties will cover both the HPFP and the Turbo as detailed in the emissions recall extended warranty terms.
 

D-Cup

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2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition, 2003 Jetta GLS, 2000 Jetta GLS, 2012 JSW
Thanks, guys.
Hopefully it's not a chronic problem. But if it is, I hope it's chronic enough that VW doesn't have a choice but to take care of their customers.

OP - please keep us updated on how things work out.
 

tdi_spec

Active member
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Location
North Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2012 Tornado Red Golf TDI
Thanks, guys.
Hopefully it's not a chronic problem. But if it is, I hope it's chronic enough that VW doesn't have a choice but to take care of their customers.
OP - please keep us updated on how things work out.
Will do! VW and the dealership has been excellent to work with so far and I have no complaints. It's the holidays still and the dealership won't be able to get it fixed until early next week so I will update then.
 

BKmetz

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Staff member
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Sep 25, 1997
Location
Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
They also run at higher pressures, higher temperatures, and higher overall stress that's not always linked to engine load. (EG, during the emissions equipment warm up routine after a cold start)

-J
I have a Scanguage-II and I watch turbocharger PSI carefully during the catalyst warm-ups. Simple solution to keep the boost down, let the engine rev a bit, don't be in a hurry to upshift. During that first critical 2 minutes of cold start and cold driving I never let the engine rev lower than 2k RPM. Higher RPM lowers the boost considerably, by as much as 5psi. I accelerate slowly as traffic conditions permit.

I realize I have a manual transmission so I control the shift points. This takes a little more effort for the DSG guys it but can be done.

:)
 

BrBa

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Dec 29, 2017
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Las Vegas
TDI
2010 Jetta - so long friend!
Will do! VW and the dealership has been excellent to work with so far and I have no complaints. It's the holidays still and the dealership won't be able to get it fixed until early next week so I will update then.
Which dealership if you don't mind me asking?
 

bizzle

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May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I have a Scanguage-II and I watch turbocharger PSI carefully during the catalyst warm-ups. Simple solution to keep the boost down, let the engine rev a bit, don't be in a hurry to upshift. During that first critical 2 minutes of cold start and cold driving I never let the engine rev lower than 2k RPM. Higher RPM lowers the boost considerably, by as much as 5psi. I accelerate slowly as traffic conditions permit.

I realize I have a manual transmission so I control the shift points. This takes a little more effort for the DSG guys it but can be done.

:)
We're supposed to keep a warming up engine *above* 2K? I always thought it was below 2K...what is the sweet spot RPM range for the 2015s? Is an ALH supposed to be kept below or above 2K, as well?
 

turbobrick240

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Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
That's just how he chooses to warm his car. Seems sensible to me. I do the same- trying to keep the rpm between 2000-2500 until the needle is at 9 o'clock.
 

BKmetz

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2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
We're supposed to keep a warming up engine *above* 2K? I always thought it was below 2K...what is the sweet spot RPM range for the 2015s? Is an ALH supposed to be kept below or above 2K, as well?
That's just how he chooses to warm his car. Seems sensible to me. I do the same- trying to keep the rpm between 2000-2500 until the needle is at 9 o'clock.
OK, this is how I choose to warm my car up, especially when it's 0F or less outside. My comments apply to cold starts, say 35F or less.

What I see during a cold-start is the turbo boost going as high as 15psi when the coolant temperature is ambient temperature, 0F or less this week. Now the ECU is programmed to start the warm-up mode when the water temp is around 100F, BUT, the oil temperature can be very cold. Yeah, I know we have an oil cooler that uses engine coolant. But the water temp sensor is not at the turbocharger so we have no idea what the oil temperature is at the turbocharger. All we know is that the oil temperature will eventually be the same as the coolant temperature. It can take several minutes for all the oil to reach normal operating temperature when the temp gauge says the engine is fully warmed up.

The context of my post is to keep boost low until the engine has had a chance to warm up, AND the oil. Slightly higher revs during cold starts and during the catalyst warm-up mode lowers the turbo boost a quick 5 PSI. Simple put, the higher engine revs are doing the work so the engine does not need as much turbo boost. That is a lot less stress on the turbocharger. After the coolant temperature has reached something reasonable, say 150F on the Scangauge, NOT the coolant temp gauge on the dash, then I let the revs drop to normal driving, 1300 to 1500 RPM.

Now we get to the coolant temperature on the Scangauge Vs the dash gauge. The dash gauge is highly buffered. It already reads 190F when the Scangauge is reading 145F. Also, during a regen, the Scangauge will read 215F while the dash gauge reads 190F.

As an aside, on my 2014 Passat the dash coolant temp gauge always read 190F, while the Scangauge read at least 210F. During a regen the dash gauge might drift up to 195F to 200F, the Scangauge would read 215F to 225F. On the 2015, the dash gauge reads 190F and the Scangauge read very close at 190F to 195F. Even during regens the 2015 rarely reads over 205F on the Scangauge.

I hope this explains things better.

:)
 
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joshhol

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Sep 5, 2017
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AP
TDI
2014 JSW TDI 6MT no sunroof, 1976 MBZ 300D & 1963 MBZ 220S; sold 2013 JSW TDI 6MT
Does this warmup turbo psi apply to just letting it idle after a cold start? Seems unlikely but i think the update includes a higher warmup idle (1000-1100) so i wonder how that affects boost psi.
 

piotrsko

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Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Location
Reno Nv
TDI
2013 Golf, 2000 F-250 (7.3)
Mho: I think these failures are related to not cooling down the turbo after a regen. The ladies I worked with used to jump out of their international busses at the barn and we had to replace turbos very often. When we made them mandatory idle turbo replacement dropped
 

BKmetz

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Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
Does this warmup turbo psi apply to just letting it idle after a cold start? Seems unlikely but i think the update includes a higher warmup idle (1000-1100) so i wonder how that affects boost psi.
Warm up mode only turns on when the car is moving. Idle has no effect on boost, it's going to be near zero.

:)
 

tdi_spec

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Location
North Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2012 Tornado Red Golf TDI
Mho: I think these failures are related to not cooling down the turbo after a regen. The ladies I worked with used to jump out of their international busses at the barn and we had to replace turbos very often. When we made them mandatory idle turbo replacement dropped
That certainly could be a factor. Too bad VW won't give drivers some kind of indication that a regen is occuring for those that aren't very in-tune with what it feels like so they can wait a few minutes at idle before shutting the car down. I know my car would go into regen far more often after the "fix" and this might have led to the turbo's early demise. :confused:
 

D-Cup

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2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition, 2003 Jetta GLS, 2000 Jetta GLS, 2012 JSW
"...few minutes..." may seem longer or shorter to some people. My car seems to start a regen right as I'm getting to my destination on my regular 12min commute to work.
I've sat at idle to let my car complete the regen...and gave up after 12min.
If it took 3-5min it would be one thing. But to sit and burn fuel for more time than what I spend actually driving, I just can't make myself do it. I have ADHD though, so there's that.
 

2011Golf

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Jan 22, 2017
Location
Pennsylvania
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2011 Golf
That certainly could be a factor. Too bad VW won't give drivers some kind of indication that a regen is occuring for those that aren't very in-tune with what it feels like so they can wait a few minutes at idle before shutting the car down. I know my car would go into regen far more often after the "fix" and this might have led to the turbo's early demise. :confused:
I would have wanted the option to choose when a good time to regen would be. If the car would let you know it needs a regen, and the estimated time it will take, and then you push a button when you want it to start. I understand most people would not want to have to worry about it.
 

ksing44

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Feb 13, 2010
Location
Southeast PA
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
"...few minutes..." may seem longer or shorter to some people. My car seems to start a regen right as I'm getting to my destination on my regular 12min commute to work.
I've sat at idle to let my car complete the regen...and gave up after 12min.
If it took 3-5min it would be one thing. But to sit and burn fuel for more time than what I spend actually driving, I just can't make myself do it. I have ADHD though, so there's that.
I drive around the neighborhood for what seems like forever. It's the last thing I want to do after driving home from work, but I do it. A while ago, I let my car idle in the driveway to let it finish on it's own. Unfortunately, however, I forgot all about my car. The next morning it was still idling in the driveway. It idled for about 16 hours. It didn't hurt anything, but I don't leave it idling anymore. Now I drive around!

It would be nice to rip all that stuff off one of these days. It would be great to not have regens and get better mpg and performance too!
 

tdi_spec

Active member
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Jul 17, 2012
Location
North Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2012 Tornado Red Golf TDI
Update: Picked car up yesterday after dealership service department replaced the turbocharger and its running great again. They found that the compressor wheel made contact with the housing and bent up the blades. Total cost was $3,957. Thank goodness I had the emissions fix done a few thousand miles ago or I would have had to pay for it! I almost feel bad for VW (but not really) now that they have had to foot almost $8K worth of repairs over the last 10,000 miles due to both the HPFP and now turbocharger failing.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Except that there is no way the turbocharger should/would have cost $4k. That is nuts. I could darn near do it TWICE for that amount.
 

Nurse Diesel

Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Location
Florida
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagen 6-spd. MT
Okay, I'm not a gearhead and my 2014 manual JSW is my first diesel, so here goes my stupid question: How DO I know when my car goes into regen? I've read a lot about it on this website but have no idea when/if it's happening.
 
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