2003 Jetta TDI with auto trans - no power

Hello All:
I've had a 2000 New Beetle with an ALH TDI and had many of the common issues, but I haven't fought those battles in awhile.

My son just bought a 2003 Jetta Wagon with an ALH but this one is an auto. We got it cheap because it exhibited signs of being in limp mode, but this car is acting differently from what my Beetle ever did.

First of all, it won't go over 20 MPH and won't go over 3k RPM in Park. Is this actually limp mode or might there be something else wrong?

I put my VAGCOM on it and got the following faults:

17656 - Start of Injection Timing Regulation

P1248 - 35-10 - Control Deviation - Intermittent
​

17058 - Cylinder 4 Glow Plug Circuit (Q13)

P0674 - 35-10 - Electrical Fault - Intermittent
​

16486 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)

P0102 - 35-00 - Signal too Low
​

17964 - Charge Pressure Control

P1556 - 35-00 - Negative Deviation
​

16512 - Coolant Thermostat Valve (N214)

P0128 - 35-00 - Temperature below Control Range
​

Readiness: 1 2 0 0 0

Click to expand...

I'm familiar with the 17058 fault from my Beetle. I plan to fix that with new bullet plugs if I can't just clean up the existing connections.

The ones that concern me are the other four.

I saved the scan and cleared the codes, but it doesn't make a difference in the performance of the engine. Am I wrong in thinking it would (even temporarily)?

We are in the middle of replacing all of the vacuum lines (another ailment my Beetle had) which I assume will fix the 17964 code. Am I making another wrong assumption?

I apologize if these are newbie questions, but I feel like I am re-learning how to deal with a TDI.

Should I start here? http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=179589

I also thank anyone in advance for any advice you might have.

Try disconnecting the MAF and see if theres any difference.

The 16512 is probably just fault thermostat or temperature sensor on the back of the engine.

I would check your static timing.

Might want to put an ohm-meter on the glow plugs anyway - the last couple times I had that code, I actually had a failed plug; my best guess is that the code was thrown as the plug was transitioning from "good" to "failing" to "dead".

I'd call the 2 assumptions maybes. Error code xxxxx does not always mean same repair.
Congrats on not having those issues on the beetle (17656, 16486, 17964), they're pretty common and are related to go power output.
Internet guess the thermostat is factory, your engine temp does not sit right at 190˚, the thermostat is wore out.
I like your glow plug solution, I put a new harness on mine, would have been easier and cheaper to repair the crumbly terminal insulation.
Use the Ross Tech wiki to help diagnose the other codes. MAF (or connect) can cause that rev limiting symptom.
The charge pressure control can be bad vac tubes, bad N75 or more common, sticky vanes, rusted actuator. Eyeball the turbo actuator as you start the engine, the lever should move over as it operates the turbo vanes.

I'll probably finish replacing the vacuum lines today. Once that's done, I'll try running the car w/o the MAF plugged in.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

OK, with the MAF unplugged I can get up to 4k+ RPM in Park, but the car still doesn't go over 20 mph in Drive. I think I will take it out and clean it or maybe temporarily swap the one from my Beetle to see if there is a difference.
Here are my new readings:

5 Faults Found:
16512 - Coolant Thermostat Valve (N214)

P0128 - 35-00 - Temperature below Control Range
​

17964 - Charge Pressure Control

P1556 - 35-00 - Negative Deviation
​

16486 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)

P0102 - 35-00 - Signal too Low
​

17656 - Start of Injection Timing Regulation

P1248 - 35-10 - Control Deviation - Intermittent
​

16885 - Vehicle Speed Sensor

P0501 - 35-00 - Implausible Signal <---This is the new fault with MAF unplugged
​

Readiness: 1 4 0 1 0

Click to expand...

I am now starting to thing there is a problem with the transmission as well, although no faults pop up. It slips horribly at low speeds.
My Beetle was a stick. What are the common issues with automatic transmissions for these cars?

Not sure of the transmission but it doesn't sound good with a lot of slipping.
The 3 biggest issues you need to solve your problem is the Boost issue, the timing issue and the MAF issue. The normal car will run fairly well with the MAF unplugged so that is easy to check - which your have. But it still may be a bad MAF but your low power problem is caused by something else at this point. Bad Glow plugs or coolant temp issues will not make the car go slow The turbo needs to be checked for proper operation and its control valve and actuator. Then the timing issue seems like something more complex. I would have it checked with the VAG com and look at the timing graph. If things are bouncing around you probably have IP issues.

You have the infamous 01M transmission. If it's slipping , and that may indeed be why you can't go over 20 mph and a fluid change doesn't solve your problem. You're going to be looking at a 5 spd swap.

There's no codes for the transmission, right? If so then I wouldn't panic on the trans just yet.

When you say you cannot go more than 20 mph, are you trying to do this in Drive? Does manually selecting the gear range change anything?

MAFs have a huge impact on the automatics. Not sure, however, whether I've heard of a bad MAF restricting speed to an extent like this.

How many miles?

I am seeing the timing, thermostat, n75, and turbo operations being the largest culprits.
As said before check the turbo range. Disconnect the actuator and exercise the lever to see what the veins are doing, probably sticky.
The actuator may need replaced. I see a lot of people hesitant to replace the n75 due to cost, however, it's often needed and causes terrible issues with boost.
Order of operations is up to you.
I would definitely check mechanical timing to be sure it's spot on and then adjust the pump timing if it is.
I wouldn't hesitate to order a new n75, and would pull the timing covers to check both timing and turbo function at the same time.
Chemical cleaning of the turbo may be a good option.
The other thing to look at is the egr and intake clogging. If not enough air is flowing you'll have issues with air flow and this can cause the issue also.
I would believe that it's a combination of all possibilities mentioned and the clogging of the intake.

OK, I replaced the MAF in the kiddo's car with the one from my Beetle and there is notable improvement in engine responsiveness... in Park.

A new scan now only shows the "16512 - Coolant Thermostat Valve (N214) ->P0128 - 35-00 - Temperature below Control Range and 17656 - Start of Injection Timing Regulation ->P1248 - 35-10 - Control Deviation - Intermittent" faults.

I took the car for a test drive and still can't over 20 MPH. It'll get to 2k RPM but it slowly rolls up to 20 MPH. If I stomp on the potentiometer, er, pedal it'll shoot up to 3k RPM with no change in speed. If I let off the pedal, I can feel the trans shift, but I still can't go over 20 MPH.

I think I'm going to tackle the 17656/P1248 fault next and see what gives.

As much as I'd love to drop the 01M out of this and swap in an EBJ or even a 6-speed, the kiddo hasn't learned to drive a stick yet. He's yet to break 1k of driving. So a swap isn't in the cards immediately.

UhOh: No, no trans codes, just loads of engine power going into a whole lot of nothing moving forward. Manually shifting makes no change. It seems to shift from 1st to 2nd, but I'm not certain. 213k miles on it - should be nicely broken in.

tgray/eddieleephd: I plan to take a look at the turbo functionality after the 17656/P1248 fault. I'm looking at this http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17656/P1248/004680 and the Tech Tip suggested within.

Negative deviation for me was caused by the vacuum.
Either the vacuum one way valve in backwards, or broken/disconnected line. Seems to be solved.

Looking you need to check for clogged intake and sticky turbo and n75.

Swap the n75 from beetle, or the n18 and n75 on his car, and see what happens.

Timing is probably the cause of the control deviation beings it's intermittent.

Pull the top boost pipe and look to see if it's full of soot.
Replace the thermostat!

Mike Murphy said:

UhOh:
tgray/eddieleephd: I plan to take a look at the turbo functionality after the 17656/P1248 fault. I'm looking at this http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17656/P1248/004680 and the Tech Tip suggested within.

Click to expand...

I just find it easier when you have the wheel off and timing available.
That's why I recommnd it then.

Fairly easy to see the actuator with it all open.
Not as easy put together.
I climbed under with the wheels on.

Well, looks like I'm making progress. I set the pump timing correctly and all of the codes are cleared. (Looks like previous owner did a shade tree timing belt replacement. Belt looks new, pulleys look ancient.)

I can also see the turbo actuator lever working from underneath (while up on ramps).

However, I am still left with a slow, gutless car.

I took it for a loooong, slooooow test drive around the neighborhood and what I found is:
In Park:

• When cold I can get the engine up to 4K RPM.
• Hot maxes out around 3K RPM.

In Drive:

• Transmission slams into gear after slight hesitation from a dead stop (like a normal auto would if low on fluid).
• Just stepping on the pedal the car only goes up to 20 MPH and I could outrun it on foot getting there.
• If I get the engine up to 2500 RPM, I can let off the pedal and feel it shift. Then I can get the car to slowly get up to 30 MPH. (I couldn't go much faster in my neighborhood due to safety concerns and the sheer number of stop signs.)
• In second(?) gear I can stomp on the pedal and the engine will go up to 3K RPM with no difference in speed.
• Manually shifting make no difference.

If I turn the AC on:

• I can't get the engine over 2K RPM or 15 MPH.

I do believe that the intake is probably clogged. That might explain the poor performance with the AC on. I am about to take the EGR valve off to inspect the intake.

The transmission also seems to either be clogged or slipping. I have read about this box of sh!t and wish I could do the 5-speed swap (or a 6-speed ), but that isn't in my budget and the kiddo won't be able to drive it. (Yes, I'm constantly reminding myself that this is his car, not mine. ) Still, I don't seem to have read any similar symptoms for this 01M.

Opinions?

Cleaning the intake will probably help your gutless power issue. Changing the transmission fluid and filter may give you some extra time on the transmission. Maybe not. Your son needs to learn to drive a stick ,if he intends on keeping the car a 5 spd swap will be a permenant cure for an ailing 01m.

My three daughters each have a manual shift car and they love to drive with a clutch. I like to say if you can drive your car with one foot and one hand you're missing out on the fun half of driving.

Might just be intake clogging. Air/fuel flow really affects 01m performance.

Sorry if I'd missed it, but having some VCDS log data would really be helpful.

Fargenshisten!
I got the intake off and it looks like the previous owner has already been there. Most of the bolts were already loose or were way too easy to break loose. The damn EGR cooler was hanging by one of the three bolts.
The intake only has a layer of greasy sludge in it, no real constriction. He didn't do a real good job on the intake ports. Several chunks fell out, which makes me think a few went through the engine and into the cat, which might be my problem.
I should have taken a better look at the car before I bought it. I got lucky with my Beetle, which only needed the vacuum hose to the actuator replaced. I figured I found another diamond in the rough.
I'm seriously thinking about parting this car out to get my money back out of it.

As long as you have it off go ahead and clean whatever residue there is left. Put it back on correctly. That may well have been part of the problem. A system that is not tight allows leaks and leaks result in power loss.

^^^ Yeah, fingers crossed that the problem stems from all the loose stuff.

I worry, though, that if a PO didn't tighten things properly that other things might not have been done correctly. Probably time to pay close attention to everything.

Oh, I'm going to put it back together correctly after a good cleaning. If I decide to part it out or sell it I'm not going to half-ass it so the next guy has to deal with the forensics I'm going through.

I'm really certain that the PO did a shadetree timing belt replace now.

Is it possible for the head to be slightly out of time without smacking valves and yet still run? I can't imagine it would, right?

While you're elbows deep in the car check the snow screen on the snorkel that goes into your airbox. My 02 couldn't drive it's way out of a wet paper bag, turned out that the snow screen was clogged with so many bugs that the car was only breathing through a hole a little smaller than a dime. Very easy to clean, even easier to cut it out. It might not fix everything but it sure couldn't hurt.

There's a relief port/valve in the intake that is supposed to operate in cases when there's a severe restriction up-stream (snorkel). And to add a note on this, what happens is that RPMs will be doggy until that flap opens up; and then if you drop off throttle you might be able to detect the sound of it closing (someone once traced this mystery sound down to this). In conclusion, if you nail it you SHOULD get air (and things should seem about normal).

OK, so it wasn't the intake, nor the snow screen(which was dirty, but not enough to impede air flow).

Also my test drive prior to cleaning the intake must not have been long enough because the 17964 fault came back, as did the 17058 and the 16512, but I have a new one that has me baffled:

16885 - Vehicle Speed Sensor In any case, I think the 17964 fault is what is keeping the car in limp mode. I need to nail that one down.

Well, if you get it back together with no leaks and no change, I would pull the turbo and see what there is to see.
Negative deviation says intake leak, actuator / n75, or turbo failure.

Well, I found one leak. It looks like fuel injectors 1 and maybe 2 are blowing Diesel fuel out the top.
Funny what you can find when you clean everything up. I thought it was engine oil before I wiped the valve cover and head off.
Does this mean I need new injectors?

OK, that was easy to fix. The nut was just loose.

Now I have found what I think is the real culprit - a hole worn in the turbo pipe caused by the power steering pulley rubbing on it. I can see daylight inside the pipe where the tubing attaches just above the IC.

Mike Murphy said:

OK, that was easy to fix. The nut was just loose.

Now I have found what I think is the real culprit - a hole worn in the turbo pipe caused by the power steering pulley rubbing on it. I can see daylight inside the pipe where the tubing attaches just above the IC.

Click to expand...

I'm surprised you didn't hear the boost leak. It should have been loud as the turbo is pushing a lot of air. Replace the hose and I'll bet things get much better.

Looking at this fix now: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=343394