Replacment for displacment!!!!!

Wow, so full of win, I have so reading to do.

The cooling between stages has definitely upset the balance so upsizing the primary should bring it back to where it was before I'm thinking ?

BD Diesel S471B100-834125 Race Turbo S400 - 71mm Billet/83mm 1.25A/R T4

andy2 said:

The cooling between stages has definitely upset the balance so upsizing the primary should bring it back to where it was before I'm thinking ?

Click to expand...

Yup.
Awful big A/R, don't you think? On something of that size it'd be like a 20cm'2 volute if my gut feeling's proper...

(explanation on the edit, I was reading "primary" as the high pressure one rather than the atmospheric one)

The setup I have now is both easy to spool and to keep on top of between shifts so I don't see an issue with keeping on top of the s471.If anything it might help as a traction control aid in the first 60ft.

I have no issue trusting that BD has their s471 matched for my current secondary turbo.

If the car holds together and performs ok then I'll get the s471 and try it out as long as my wallet has some money left

Billet wheel K31s can be had relatively cheap, been showing up on craigslist around me somewhat regular, they're around that size. Might bolt up, they're a generation behind in nomenclature but that may very well mean absolutely nothing in the actual parts.

If they light up quick, then no reason not to run a big A/R housing. Surprised that they do, but that's an obscene amount of fuel.

I just had a thought a few weeks ago in regard to your trans spitting out gears. They're all tapered roller bearings in these, and that's pretty neat in regards to a long wear life, but it might not be best for high torque load. When the gears are wedging apart under torque load, the bearings are also wedging the bearing races outwards, and if the bearing races can move outward from case flex the shafts will move away from eachother and the teeth will suffer. While aluminum's stiffer than steel in regards to bending I'd still bet the case bows outward a significant amount under heavy load, all of the added braces seem to be in the radial direction. The cuff in the place of fifth gear probably largely eliminates this tapered roller bearing wedging on that end, but the other end will still do it.

A deep groove ball bearing wouldn't have this issue of causing huge axial loads on the trans case. I've seen full complement ball bearings (the ones with a slot in the races to be able to fit a lot more balls in for added radial load capacity, eschewing a cage) used often in transmissions and transfer cases using helical gears, so they can hold up to some axial thrust despite being explicitly recommended against such application by the bearing catalogs. You've still got some thrust loading going on with the helical first and final drive, after all.

Just some thoughts that I finally remembered while sitting at the computer.

Thanks for the input ! I'll mention it and see what we feel about this.We do have the pinion brace and external brace to hopefully help keep the case from flexing.


The car is still in hibernation but we'll soon be working on it.Dad has started to rework the compressor housing for the gt45 to replace the s366.I bought a twain/ebay compressor wheel to replace the 68.7mm inducer wheel with a 72mm one.The new wheel had a 5/16 bore so enlarging it to 8mm was the first task.We have the compressor inducer bored out so far but another job came up for the lathe so its sitting for now.

Best thread ever, Andy =) Do you still run 30 degrees injection advance or did you advance it more? You mentioned 50 degrees a few posts ago but Im not sure if you meant duration or advance there =)

Thanks DannyS ! I tried 50 deg inj timing but it was no good,32-35 deg seems good for now.Might bump it up a little closer to 40 to see how it pulls.It makes gobs of torque at only 32-35 so I can't see me changing it that much.

I haven't set the fuel plate to full rack travel yet with 32-35*. Just trying to keep an eye on EGT's.Inj duration is still good so far according to calculation's that we made.

I'm thinking that the fully cut delivery valves will really let this engine rip.Not sure what HP it will be making but if I can make good use of a 72mm inducer it must be fairly high.

Whats happening with this project at present?

We had the car out at the track with the s366 still on there and only managed a best time of 11.8 @ 118 mph on a 24" tire.Its time to go back to the drawing board and re work the injection pump.Last year we went 11.5 @ 109 on a 26" tire.

Trying to get the optimal injection duration VS injection quantity while keeping a mechanical injection pump together is a big issue.There are companies that can build higher reving inj pumps I just can't pay the price tag and still wonder if they would survive.

Here is a link with plenty of info on where things with mechanical fuel injection are at,

http://www.hamiltoncams.com/inpuca.html

Our latest idea is to run 2 plungers per injector and to have a short lift on the camshaft lobe.The idea is to have VE/VP plunger lift on the inline injection pump.The inj pump would still turn at 1/4 of crankshaft speed.So 2 11mm plungers would push enough fuel while not getting worked hard and still survive.

After all of this even happens I'm almost certain that we have reached the limits of making power with diesel fuel alone.My Dad is the only reason that this project has continued on this far and he just won't give up.

We have talked about common rail however it too would likely run into more limitations as mentioned in the link that was posted above.

Making this engine perform better and better has always been a challenge that we still enjoy and look forward to.Hopefully next year we can not only get back to were we were 5 years ago but also do better.

I guess I'm thinking that making 500+ bhp on diesel fuel only is still possible.

Ask diesel mekken te Sweden to build a pump they do really good work and give life time guarantee

Why the drawing board? You went faster, MPH wise on a smaller tire so you're making more power. What were the 60ft times?

Still running compounds, what psi?

AGain, neat project, love stuff like this.

andy2 said:

Trying to get the optimal injection duration VS injection quantity while keeping a mechanical injection pump together is a big issue.

Click to expand...

What size nozzles are you running again? I remember they were 12v cummins parts, but not hole sizes.
If they don't have the flow your peak injection pressures can get way out of hand way quick.

On the CR/computers side of things, ever think of running an electronic governor from a mercedes? I guess they got more or less the same sorta setup an ALH does, but with an inline pump rather than the VE.
Solenoid on the rack and a cam position sensor, or something like that.

mk1-83 said:

Ask diesel mekken te Sweden to build a pump they do really good work and give life time guarantee

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip.

turbovan+tdi said:

Why the drawing board? You went faster, MPH wise on a smaller tire so you're making more power. What were the 60ft times?

Still running compounds, what psi?

AGain, neat project, love stuff like this.

Click to expand...

There have been a couple issues that we were chasing.Sometimes the issue is making too many changes at once.The control rack in the injection pump was stuck and I had to use the air shutdown to kill the engine the last time it ran.

Still using 2 turbo's and just swapped the 366 out for the 72mm turbo.No mumbers on boost yet.

[486] said:

What size nozzles are you running again? I remember they were 12v cummins parts, but not hole sizes.
If they don't have the flow your peak injection pressures can get way out of hand way quick.

On the CR/computers side of things, ever think of running an electronic governor from a mercedes? I guess they got more or less the same sorta setup an ALH does, but with an inline pump rather than the VE.
Solenoid on the rack and a cam position sensor, or something like that.

Click to expand...

The nozzles were 5x.017",Should be plenty big enough.another possible bottleneck could be the injector body and internals however we flow tested them to make sure there was no restriction.

I did think of running an electronic governor however it wouldn't be too necessary just yet.Sure would be nice though.

Below is a video of a company that makes electric governor conversions to replace most common mechanical governors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr3i1gnutYA

They sent me a PDF about the specs and the rpm range is 500-5000 rpm.

He sent part of a message to me about the rpm signal,

Our systems will determine engine's max rpm according to frequency
of the pickup installed on the ring gear.
Our systems has accepted up to max 7,500 Hz, and so engine rpms are
having to do with the teeth's number of ring gear.
please refer below formula.
( rpm x teeth' number ) ÷ 60 = frequency ( hz )

I didn't count the teeth on the vw flywheel yet.Its possible that a different pickup sensor and trigger wheel could be used if needed.


If anyone would like contact info or to see the PDF just send me a PM and I can e-mail it to you.He didn't reply back to me about the price.

If Iwould do this id use the governor or pump of e governed om606 and the use edc15vm+ from vwto control is. Its also just adc motor with a position sensor in both the vp37 and the om606.. This would give really tuneable setup that would allow good smoke and torque control

andy2 said:

The nozzles were 5x.017",Should be plenty big enough.another possible bottleneck could be the injector body and internals however we flow tested them to make sure there was no restriction.

Click to expand...

converts over to like .430mm
which is in the size range that some guys are running at 6k rpm or so, your injection events are half again shorter at 9-10k RPM, so just a wild ass guess, but a larger nozzle would probably pay off in pump durability.
Then the electronic governor would help with regulating something that might be mistaken as an idle despite all that fuel.


coming from someone who just siezed a VE pump head from too small of nozzles, so there may be some narrowmindedness in my thinking.

Figured I'd update this thread.I've had the car out this year and had major trouble spooling up the turbo's due to a melted high pressure turbine housing and wheel.I also ended up roasting the clutch and damaging 3rd gear in the dogbox last year.

So new clutch and replacement 3rd gear are now installed.Also the clutch fork was bent and we will strengthen a new stock one to prevent this from happening again.

Since last year we have also made major changes to the fuel system including injectors and injection pump.Also ditched both liquid to air intercoolers for one massive air to air that can actually flow more than enough unlike the setup last year

Last year we had a long Injection duration which caused very EGT's and melted the turbine.This year we have re engineered the injection pump and blueprinted it to deliver our maximum fuel quantity within an acceptable duration.




I have replaced the T3 .80 A/R wastegated dual volute 65mm high pressure turbine.Hopefully the newer SXE 68mm turbine wheel and a T3 .82 A/R open volute housing will keep boost in check without a wastegate.




Also now have new 24.5"x9.5" slicks to try next time out.

Hi Andy. I really hope the fuel system is going to work out for you this time. Its been a lot of work to get to this point. I like to see you unleash the potential of this engine!

What was your thoughts on the AWIC's you had? They didn't do a good job at pulling IAT's down?

Thanks Louis for the support ! My problem with AWIC is related to not having them sized correctly to flow the required air.Making things worse I had one undersized cooler between stages which only compounded the issue.

So far both IAT's and EGT's are reading much lower with the air to air.

Nice pump mods 2 plunjer one injector this go up the fuel pressure and better spray.

You go from all 8 to a inj bar then go from there to 4 like a cr.

mk1-83 said:

Nice pump mods 2 plunjer one injector this go up the fuel pressure and better spray.

You go from all 8 to a inj bar then go from there to 4 like a cr.

Click to expand...

He uses an 8 zyl cam, so its either time only 1 plunjer which is feeding the inj. at a time, at least that what I think, and pump is running 25% of crank speed.

Ok It can be dont now andy how did you made this and why

andy2 said:

Thanks Louis for the support ! My problem with AWIC is related to not having them sized correctly to flow the required air.Making things worse I had one undersized cooler between stages which only compounded the issue.

So far both IAT's and EGT's are reading much lower with the air to air.

Click to expand...

I have always been skeptical about the "power" rating on the AWIC's. If you don't mind sharing, what size units did you have?

Very nice, been waiting to see all the elements used since it was mentioned.
I like the idea of ditching the HP wastegate, just gotta keep up boost on the LP side to avoid surge.
Are there second delivery valves in the injector line Y-blocks, or just relying on the ones at the pump to prevent backflow?

Rub87 said:

He uses an 8 zyl cam, so its either time only 1 plunjer which is feeding the inj. at a time, at least that what I think, and pump is running 25% of crank speed.

Click to expand...

pump appears to be using the same enormous cambelt pulley for .25 ratio, earlier in the thread it was mentioned that there were 2 lumps on each lobe, for 2 injection events per element per rotation, 180 deg apart. This was when he was running only 4 elements in the pump. The mention of cam changes hints that this may very well be history.

Rub87 said:

He uses an 8 zyl cam, so its either time only 1 plunjer which is feeding the inj. at a time, at least that what I think, and pump is running 25% of crank speed.

Click to expand...

Correct !

mk1-83 said:

Ok It can be dont now andy how did you made this and why

Click to expand...

The "theory" behind this it to allow for longer plunger filling/rest time.

TDIsyncro said:

I have always been skeptical about the "power" rating on the AWIC's. If you don't mind sharing, what size units did you have?

Click to expand...

The AWIC's that I was using were able to flow only 700 CFM/600 HP.Never go by the HP rating.Only rely on either the listed flow rating or on your own calculation/comparison based on the internal flow of the cooler. The HP rating is calculated using a gas engine not a diesel.

http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water-ic/water-to-air-intercoolers-p-214.html

It also takes major water flow and preferably pressure to remove the heat at the same rate as the air going through it especially with higher boost/heat applications.It would not hurt to have some pressure behind the flow to help scrub the heat away better.

Bilge pumps are ok for low boost/heat applications.Seems like you really need water "pressure" for the higher boost/heat applications.

It was way too much complication and $$$$ for me to try and work out so I went back to the air to air and haven't looked back.

The turbo setup I'm using can flow roughly 1378 CFM - 85.30 LBS/MN.The intercooler I have was calculated to be able to flow more than that but not by leaps and bounds.

https://www.cxracing.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=3251

I can't recall how many CFM or LBS/MIN that we figured this intercooler flows but it was a bit more than the current turbo setup will push.

Also all of the intercooler piping and intake manifold have be upsized to 3".

[486] said:

Very nice, been waiting to see all the elements used since it was mentioned.
I like the idea of ditching the HP wastegate, just gotta keep up boost on the LP side to avoid surge.
Are there second delivery valves in the injector line Y-blocks, or just relying on the ones at the pump to prevent backflow?

pump appears to be using the same enormous cambelt pulley for .25 ratio, earlier in the thread it was mentioned that there were 2 lumps on each lobe, for 2 injection events per element per rotation, 180 deg apart. This was when he was running only 4 elements in the pump. The mention of cam changes hints that this may very well be history.

Click to expand...

Thanks.There are only delivery valves on the inj pump.We have tried fully cut ones VS others so far.

So yes as you understand there is now one camshaft lobe per plunger.Each injector has 2 plungers however only one plunger pumps per injection cycle.

If I am reading this correctly, that's a clever workaround for the RPM limitation of the IP. As a general tendency, the more they flow the lower the rpm limit. That's ultimately what holds back the ve pumps, larger elements are heavier and big weight to move around. Guys still run them stupid high rpm... for a while anyway. Half speed and 2x the elements is an innovative way around that.

I find that AWIC works really well IF the front radiator (heat sink) is big enough. For example in a van conversion, or in the pinzauers, with a huge front radiator and robust water pump, there are definite benefits including packaging considerations and the lack of airflow for the a/a IC crammed under the rear of the van. The problem with cars is having room for an adequate the front radiator, especially in a hyper high pressure application like this with lots of compression heat.

Heat transfer is always proportional to mass flow rate, specific heat capacity of the transfer medium, and the delta t. q=mcdt so theoretically water can remove much more heat per gram than air, and there are a lot more grams, BUT keep in mind it also has to go from the coolant to the atmosphere. That is where most a/w systems fall short. It's not the IC that falls short, it's the radiator or ultimate heat sink. The transfer from air to water is efficient, but then you have to transfer from water back to air. Now if you have an ice tank in the trunk...

One thing the fmic has going for it vs. a2w is simplicity. Another is lower weight (I assume).

turbobrick240 said:

One thing the fmic has going for it vs. a2w is simplicity. Another is lower weight (I assume).

Click to expand...

I don't want to start a debate but, having run an AWIC, I think running a few feet
of radiator hose is simpler and lighter than all the sections and joints of an A2AIC.
My AWIC is integral (one piece) with the IM. The radiator itself is about the same
weight as a large A2AIC even with the water.

Hi Andy,

Just wondering if you have any updates?