AHU TDI swap - vibration with single mass flywheel

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
I have an AHU that was swapped into a Volvo 240. I am using the Volvo 240 trans, so I have a bellhousing adapter. I have tried a few clutch setup but have had issues with them all.

Setup 1:
Solid hub flywheel for b5 1.8t
Unsprung clutch disc

This setup worked fine except some chatter when slipping the clutch and massive vibration between 1600-2000 rpm. The vibration seems to resonate the whole car at engine frequency, and appears to originate in the transmission area. The vibration occurs in every gear but is worse with increasing load and higher gear.

Setup 2:
Dual mass 1.8T flywheel
Unsprung clutch disc

This setup still had some chatter when slipping the clutch, but the vibration is mostly gone. Worked fine, but after 500 miles, the new pressure plate had a strap rivet failure that also damaged my custom clutch disc. I'm not sure what caused the failure. For fear of the dual mass flywheel also failing, I tried changing up the setup.

Setup 3:
Solid hub 1.8t flywheel
Sprung hub Ford Escort clutch disc

This setup takes off smoothly but the massive vibration is back. Not quite as bad as Setup 1, but still bad enough that I don't feel comfortable loading the car in that RPM range.


So, this brings the question - why does my car seem to need a dual mass flywheel to dampen engine vibrations when other seem to be fine with a solid flywheel? I understand that the dual mass could simply be masking another problem, but the engine ran smooth in the Jetta I pulled it from, and the same with my 240.

Any input or experiences with TDI conversion driveline vibration would be appreciated.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
did you dial indicate center between the crank and trans ? about .010" total runout allowed ... if not centered properly the clutch disc can run eccentric to the flywheel and PP and cause major imbalance... i had an imbalance issue on my swap (among other problems) before i discovered the mis-alignment
 
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Uberhare

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Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
Too many.
To be me it sounds like the vibration is killing your flywheel/clutch. You need to find the source of the vibration. These engines run just fine with a solid flywheel provided it is heavy enough.

Are you using the stock crank pulley?
Are you the one I think I read somewhere had used a custom welded clutch disc/hub? If that is off center it could be the root of your problems.
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
did you dial indicate center between the crank and trans ? about .010" total runout allowed ... if not centered properly the clutch disc can run eccentric to the flywheel and PP and cause major imbalance... i had an imbalance issue on my swap (among other problems) before i discovered the mis-alignment
I assume you mean dial indicate between the crank and input shaft? Not sure how that could be affected by engine/trans alignment because the pilot bushing would center it. I would assume any eccentric rotation would be caused by the center holes on the parts themselves.

To be me it sounds like the vibration is killing your flywheel/clutch. You need to find the source of the vibration. These engines run just fine with a solid flywheel provided it is heavy enough.

Are you using the stock crank pulley?
Are you the one I think I read somewhere had used a custom welded clutch disc/hub? If that is off center it could be the root of your problems.
I couldn't actually feel much vibration with the dual mass setup that had a failed pressure plate. So the dual mass must have done a good job of damping it. I agree that some source of misalignment could definitely be at fault here.

I am using the stock crank pulley, it has come off a couple times because I had the crank timing cog slip and I had to dowel pin it.

The welded clutch hub was only used on the dual mass setup that failed. The two clutches that I used with the single mass flywheel have been off-the-shelf.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
you can't force it into alignment using the pilot... it will eventually damage the input, input bearing, pilot, or clutch disc ... even if it does force center on the pilot you are binding the shaft at an angle and this forces the clutch into eccentricity with the flywheel and PP and causes the release bearing to run eccentric to the PP release fingers ... if you have not dial indicated to within .010" you have a problem ... just whipping out an adapter plate and hoping for the best is why so many folks are having issues with the poorly made acme plates ... pretty much the same issues you're having....
 
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jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
if you can install the bell and start the engine without trans installed this may help eliminate the cause... then you can add components one at a time until the vibration comes back
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
you can't force it into alignment using the pilot... it will eventually damage the input, input bearing, pilot, or clutch disc ... even if it does force center on the pilot you are binding the shaft at an angle and this forces the clutch into eccentricity with the flywheel and PP ... if you have not dial indicated to within .010" you have a problem ... just whipping out an adapter plate and hoping for the best is why so many folks are having issues with the poorly made acme plates ... pretty much the same issues you're having
Fair enough, I have not dial indicated the bellhousing to the block. But, assuming coaxiality is off between the input shaft and crankshaft, and the pilot bearing centers the two, what's left to be imbalanced and vibrate? It obviously spins freely in the pilot bearing, and the pilot is a tight fit. Sure, the shaft might be at an angle but I'm not sure enough of an angle to vibrate as bad is it does, but I don't have experience with this.
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
if you can install the bell and start the engine without trans installed this may help eliminate the cause... then you can add components one at a time until the vibration comes back
Forgot to mention that the vibration does not occur in neutral, only with load.
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
Ujoints and driveshaft support are good. I've swapped a driveshaft to rule that out.

To the alignment idea, I will try moving the bellhousing on the block slightly a couple times to see if there is any change. Clutch chatter seems to be worse now, and I'm even getting light chatter with the clutch pushed in, so I think something is going on in there.
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
Make sure you have proper angle on your drive shaft
That was an initial thought, we mostly ruled that out by loading the drivetrain on the lift with the trans mount unbolted and moving it around. The vibration didn't really change at all when doing that. Also, it's a two piece driveshaft, so it would probably won't not complain much about some angle on the front half
 

1.9ZOOK

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2015
Location
Downstream of a Volcano
TDI
ALH Samurai
I would put my money on Jimbotes engine/trans alignment comment,if it's
barely out,it just takes a little longer for the clutch chatter symptom to show
up.I'm in the process indicating mine now.I'm using a Toyota tranny and made
this from an old case that was laying around.

If you have access to the front case of another tranny case you are using,that is the best way to get it right.
 
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vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
If you are indeed aligned correctly, you could be having a similar issue that the audi longitudinal transmissions experience with a 4 cylinder TDI. I had 3 clutch setups on my car before I found one that I liked, which was a 240mm dual mass flywheel and a sachs race engineering solid disk.

The theory is: transverse transmissions have a short input shaft and the vibrations do not resonate like they do on a transmission with a long input shaft.

I assume your transmisison has a pretty long input shaft (longer than a vw transverse shaft?)

I HATED my car with anything but a dual mass, the vibrations under acceleration were terrible, and I could actually hear (what I think were) my synchros vibrating violently at lower RPM.

Just a thought.
 
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cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
I would put my money on Jimbotes engine/trans alignment comment,if it's
barely out,it just takes a little longer for the clutch chatter symptom to show
up.I'm in the process indicating mine now.I'm using a Toyota tranny and made
this from an old case that was laying around.
If you have access to the front case of another tranny case you are using,that is the best way to get it right.
Unfortunately don't have another trans lying around to chop up.
What do you mean it would take some time for the chatter to show up? Worn pilot bearing?
If you are indeed aligned correctly, you could be having a similar issue that the audi longitudinal transmissions experience with a 4 cylinder TDI. I had 3 clutch setups on my car before I found one that I liked, which was a 240mm dual mass flywheel and a sachs race engineering solid disk.
The theory is: transverse transmissions have a short input shaft and the vibrations do not resonate like they do on a transmission with a long input shaft.
I assume your transmisison has a pretty long input shaft (longer than a vw transverse shaft?)
I HATED my car with anything but a dual mass, the vibrations under acceleration were terrible, and I could actually hear (what I think were) my synchros vibrating violently at lower RPM.
Just a thought.
Very interesting idea I had not thought of. The M47 transmission input is much longer than the mk3. What rpm range did you have vibration issues?

Did you ever try a 228mm dual mass? I already have the new one I had bought and it worked fairly well until the pressure plate failure.

Here are some pictures of what happened to the pressure plate and clutch that were on the dual mass. I'm starting to wonder if it was just a manufacturing flaw in the pressure plate. But that does not explain the rivets that have almost broken out of the clutch disc.

The pressure plate surface seems to have broken out on the boss that has the strap rivet hole. Then, the rivets on the other two straps broke. I'm not sure what I can attribute to manufacturing flaw or setup flaw here. I don't want to put the time and money into making another clutch disc to fit the dual mass if it will just fail again.

Also, I am just noticing now that both parts seem to have failed in the engine deceleration rotation... Not sure what that could mean honestly.

20170508_211832 by Cj Surrusco, on Flickr
20170508_211907 by Cj Surrusco, on Flickr
 
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1.9ZOOK

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2015
Location
Downstream of a Volcano
TDI
ALH Samurai
"What do you mean it would take some time for the chatter to show up? Worn pilot bearing?"
For the clutch to start chattering,in my case it was fine until around 500 miles,the alignment was out 18 thou.(6-8 is acceptable)I'm thinking the more it is out,the quicker it will show up .
I have no experience with Volvos,so don't know about longitudinal vs transverse.
 
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vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
My rpm issues were maybe 1200-2000? I don't really remember. My power band will be different than yours because of the bigger turbo. I did try a 228 dmf from a 1.8t a4. It was great, but my engine would bottom the internal springs out when rolling into the torque in 3rd or higher higher. A 228 might be fine if you are staying with a standard turbo.
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
My rpm issues were maybe 1200-2000? I don't really remember. My power band will be different than yours because of the bigger turbo. I did try a 228 dmf from a 1.8t a4. It was great, but my engine would bottom the internal springs out when rolling into the torque in 3rd or higher higher. A 228 might be fine if you are staying with a standard turbo.
Got it, for my issue it wouldn't really matter where the power band was. Even at 50% load, it is vibrating badly in about that same range. how long has the 240 DMF lasted for you so far? I know there are longevity issues that could only be worsened by increased torque.

Now if I could just figure out why my last clutch and PP failed, then I would just go back to the dual mass.
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
Mine has been in there for 30k miles, and doing excellent so far. It has survived several full throttle clutch dumps and 4-wheel burnouts!
 

cj.surr

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Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
Thanks, that's encouraging!

I brought it to a clutch shop today and they seemed to agree that it seemed to be more of a shock load failure and possibly poor manufacturing, as opposed to an alignment issue. So I plan rivet on a new clutch surface to the disc and try the dual mass setup again.
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
Mine has been in there for 30k miles, and doing excellent so far. It has survived several full throttle clutch dumps and 4-wheel burnouts!
No luck with the second try on the dual mass setup. I fixed the clutch parts, but could tell the dual mass was a little looser than when I started. The DMF lasted about 1k additional miles (3k total) before failing. Seemed to have broken a spring or something, it was loose, clunky and vibrated. I swapped to a single mass (during a roadtrip) and did another 7k miles without any issue (other than the ~2000rpm vibration).

What weight single mass flywheels have you tried? Mine is only 15lb, I am thinking about trying the valeo b5 1.8t single mass option that weighs 23lb, but I'm not too hopeful because my vibration issue seems so severe.

I may also try the 228mm dual mass flywheel again. I think a significant amount of wear for the FW (and cause of original clutch failure) may have been due to rough starts. The dual mass sprung section would bottom out with a loud slap on most starts. Sometimes it would enter a mode where it ran at 200rpm clunking back and forth, with the only option being to shut off the engine. These occurred even when the flywheel was relatively new. I think it is due to a weaker starting system.

I know later TDIs that came with dual mass flywheels have a starting RPM requirement before injecting fuel. I think the lack of this feature on my ECU this may be the cause of the loud flywheel slapping during starting. I plan to test this out by running the starter before turning on the ignition. If I try the dual mass again, that is... The single mass is getting me to work just fine every day, but it is annoying being forced to keep the RPM above 2300.
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
What engine was your 240mm DMFW off of? I think I'm gonna try another 228mm and if it fails again, I'll go to 240mm.
 

cj.surr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Location
Upstate NY
TDI
AHU Volvo 240
Thanks, I think that's what I need to try next. Starter fitment was the same for the 228mm and 240mm DMFs correct?

I put in another new 228mm Luk DMF and I'm not happy with how it drives. It clunks on accel/decel, shudders badly during clutch slipping, and slaps on rough starts. I think the 240mm DMF will have stiffer springs and help with some of these problems.
 

vtpsd

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Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
No, the starter is different. I believe the ring gear diameter is bigger on the 240. Sorry to hear you are struggling so hard with the flywheel and clutch setup. It sounds awfully familiar to me about a year ago.
 

vwztips

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Aug 30, 2009
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Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
Ditto what VTPSD said. I installed a BHW with 01E 6 speed and Whitbread's SMF heavy duty clutch set up with a crank dampener on the front, in a 2001 AllRoad. Resonated just like you said at same RPMs. 1st and 2nd not so much.

Could not drive the car due to the resonation. Switched to the Sachs SRE DMF 240mm set up and it all went away. Smooth too.

FWIW, I put Whitbread's clutch setup in my 2004 Passat with 012 (I know, shorter shaft) and it is my favorite clutch set up as far as feel and let out is concerned. Works great with no resonate vibrations.

The other part of the equation is the weight of the car putting more load on everything. There is a 800#+ difference between a FWD Passat and an AllRoad. I would think the Volvo is significantly heavier than the Golf/Jetta
 

jtryloff92

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2015
Location
Ohio
TDI
98 Jetta TDI, 91 jetta 1.6NA
did you dial indicate center between the crank and trans ? about .010" total runout allowed ... if not centered properly the clutch disc can run eccentric to the flywheel and PP and cause major imbalance... i had an imbalance issue on my swap (among other problems) before i discovered the mis-alignment
Jim, I sent you a PM. Is this tool still available?
 
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