Biodiesel in post 2006 tdi with DPF delete?

Hi, everyone-

I would like to introduce myself to the tdiclub community. I purchased my first diesel car in 2005 (a 1982 Mercedes 240D) so I could burn biodiesel instead of petroleum for transport. I liked that car so much I bought 3 other diesels (a 1991 300D 2.5 turbo, a 1987 300TD wagon, and a 1981 Nissan 720 diesel pickup). Unfortunately, all getting pretty old now, and both the 124 series Mercedes have had head problems.

My wife and I want to get a newer, nicer car. Swapping engines, replacing heads, etc. has gotten pretty old. I'm just tired of the Mercedes at this point. The 123 series is reliable but boring looking and super slow. The 124 series cars are great looking, but break all the time. I think I've put $15k into the '91 since I bought it. The 96 and newer Mercedes diesels are very expensive, don't look good (in my opinion) and don't get al that great mileage.

I want to buy a Volkswagen TDI. I want a manual transmission, since automatics always seem to break (expensively). The pre-2000 TDIs are too old and worn out at this point.

Do I have any other choice besides a 2000-2006 Jetta if I want to run B99 or B100 biodiesel? From what I've read, the 2009 and later TDIs have a diesel particulate filter (DPF). This goes through a regeneration cycle periodically where fuel is injected between the intake and exhaust strokes to burn off the particulates.

As I understand it, if you run high concentrations of biodiesel, the unburned biodiesel will contaminate the engine oil and result in engine damage.

I have heard that it is possible to delete the DPF. This involves removing it from the exhaust system and replacing it with a straight pipe. You then get custom software for the engine control module that prevents the regen cycle from occurring.

People seem to mostly do this for economy and performance reasons, but it also seems logical that it would enable biodiesel use. I have heard that in Europe, where the DPF is not used, people use biodiesel in current TDIs.

I would really like to buy a 2009 or 2010 Jetta TDI, or a 09-14 SportWagen. My major reservation is the inability to use biodiesel.

Note that I have no desire to use WVO or SVO. This clearly is a bad idea in anything other than the old indirect injection motors.

Does anyone have experience running B100 biodiesel in the post 06 cars? It seems that up to B20 is covered under warranty in Indiana anyway, so I'm not worried about that.

Thanks for any information..

Max Behensky

Your location says you are in Soquel which is down the road from me... Indiana?

I wouldnt touch a HPFP TDi with a 10 foot fuel pump..

I wouldnt mess with the DPF... Thats kind of a ironic thing in that you want to run biodiesel but you would mess with the emissions system...

PLENTY of earlier TDi's out there in your year and fuel requirement range. You just have to look and be prepared to jump and buy at that moment.

Dpf and pure bio wouldn't worry me as much as the potential for issues with the common rail fuel system which at leat with VW goes hand and hand with dpf equipped vehicles. And no I'm not talking fuel pump issues. I personally wouldn't use anything more that B20 in any common rail engine.

And while I could be mistaken I think you are misinformed about current European diesels and their lack of a dpf.

Well you may be in luck! If you want a newer car and a bio fuel. Propel is selling dieselHPR which is bio based but not biodiesel.

http://www.dieselhpr.com/

No need to do anything to the car either as it is classified as astm diesel fuel. Some here have been using it with great results so far. I would check it out if a newer car is wanted and a biomass fuel as well. They seem to have stations around you as well.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=434324

I really do not want to sound like a troll...
But let me get this right...
You burn biodiesel for mainly environmental reasons....
But you are thinking of deleting the DPF which prevents the soot from coming out and going into people lungs....it could be argued the DPF is the single biggest factor in making a diesel clean...
Just trying to understand....not pass judgment.

DPF delete and the environment

Thanks for the input. I agree that it may seem illogical to remove a piece of mandated emissions equipment if I care about the environment. Here's my justification:

1. I believe that carbon pollution is a very serious, long term threat to the planet. If I want to drive a car, biofuel is the only serious option. An electric car doesn't help that much, since the electricity to charge it still comes mostly from burning fossil fuels. Biodiesel (especially if it is made from waste oil) is the most carbon neutral fuel you can get to run your car on.

2. Diesel particulates are a problem, but they don't cause the same sort of decades long world wide environmental damage that carbon does.

3. I drive a 30 year old indirect injection diesel every day. A newer tdi, even with the DPF removed will be a major improvement.

4. If my choice is between a 2006 tdi (with no DPF) or buying a 2009 and removing the DPF I don't see much difference.

Nearly half of diesel particulate matter, created by any diesel bio or not, is carbon.

If you use the diesel hpr I listed above you get the best of both worlds. A bio based fuel made from recycled stuff and a cleaner burning fuel and particulate free (dpf) emissions. What isn't to like unless you are brewing your own bio now.

Reading my last post, I realize that I was unclear. When I said carbon pollution I was talking about carbon dioxide gas (CO2). This is getting off topic, though. I don't want to hijack my own thread and turn it into a discussion about global warming.

Mostly, I want to know if anybody has done a DPF delete on their newer 2009+ tdi, and if they have tried running biodiesel in it.

I have heard about the new biodiesel HPR, and it sounds really interesting. It seems to even be available in San Jose, fairly close to my house. I'm hoping to move to Hawaii in a year or two, though, and the only place it seems to be available now is in California.

I haven't read of any one doing what you are asking about. But the cars are approved for use in the few states that have bio mandates up to B20, with the caveat to check for rising oil levels. Removing the emissions equipment (it all has to go from my understanding) and reprogramming has been done. There doesn't seem to be much risk to do both B100 and removal/reprogramming. That is with the understanding that you are using outstanding commercial bio (similar to the HPR). Stuff made in your garage probably wouldn't be advisable. Okay for the old Mercedes, not so much for the newest cars.

If I were looking for what you say I would just go with a 2006 model year and call it good. Mine burned regular bio just fine and was a very nice car. They can be prone to cam issues though. No mechanical/tuning needed and no emissions inspection issues to deal with. They seem to be available fairly cheap as well.

Actually all diesels in CA from 1998 and on need a "smog" test which is another way of saying give us your money..

Based on information provided by another member here, Bio doesn't stand up well to the temperatures reached within the CR nozzle. From some pictures he's shown, I'm not sure I'd attempt B100 in these engines, even with the DPF delete. Those are expensive injectors to clog up, and once they get clogged they are pretty much gone.

Get the 06. The DPF isnt the only concern with B100.

I should probably just get the 06...

I've seen a few 2006 Jetta TDIs with manual transmission and under 100k miles available. I sort of had my heart set on a 2009+ Sportwagen, though.

Maybe I should get that and feed it the new HPR biodiesel.

Being in California right now emissions deletes are pretty much out of the question for you anyway. If there is any CR I would shy away from it is any 2009. 1st year teething issues there, and the dpf is unique costing more to update/replace when needed. I would get as new a CR as you can and feed it that HPR if it were me. Deal with Hawaii later.

peterdaniel said:

Actually all diesels in CA from 1998 and on need a "smog" test which is another way of saying give us your money..

Click to expand...

I didn't mean the tests themselves but the "issues" that go with it when deletes are done. As long as you conform there are no issues.

If you want the newer car, stick with DieselHPR (rhyme unintentional). I doubt you'll get away with a DPF delete in California anyway. While diesel HPR has about twice the carbon footprint of locally sourced B99, it is still about 1/3 of petrodiesel. If you go to the thread on this topic, there is a ton of information about it and you can make your own decision about whether it is good enough for your environmental concerns.

In summary: 2006 or earlier if you want to do high blends of biodiesel (and you may still run into some fuel related issues). If you want to do 2009 or later, then just stick with B20 or DieselHPR (the latter being a superior alternative fuel option with 98% biomass base and only 2% petroleum-based additive--CAVEAT, shipped to CA from Singapore).

Hello am not sure if you've already gotten your issue resolved, but I did exactly what you said, dpf delete and well to not risk it am using b50 and at times when it's really hot here in Texas I use b100 but other than that, in a year and a half of doing this I have yet to see or experience any issues, other than increase in highway mpg's

Just in case anyone is interested. I have posted a NIB Greasecar System in the classified section. Originally bought for a 2000 Jetta TDI which I have recently sold.

the fear of HPFP with CR's is ridiculous.

i say do it. a deleted CR is very reliable. that said, it is not a wise decision to run B100 with a common rail with a delete. i would keep it at or below B50, just like the above poster eanfoso mentioned unless temps are very, very high.

maxb said:

Thanks for the input. I agree that it may seem illogical to remove a piece of mandated emissions equipment if I care about the environment. Here's my justification:
1. I believe that carbon pollution is a very serious, long term threat to the planet. If I want to drive a car, biofuel is the only serious option. An electric car doesn't help that much, since the electricity to charge it still comes mostly from burning fossil fuels. Biodiesel (especially if it is made from waste oil) is the most carbon neutral fuel you can get to run your car on.
2. Diesel particulates are a problem, but they don't cause the same sort of decades long world wide environmental damage that carbon does.

LOL! No they just kill your neighbors with asthma and give people lung cancers. But hey worry only about one issue instead of the BIG PICTURE.

3. I drive a 30 year old indirect injection diesel every day. A newer tdi, even with the DPF removed will be a major improvement.

Then why is the EPA and CARB freaking out about a minor issue with the current diesels.

4. If my choice is between a 2006 tdi (with no DPF) or buying a 2009 and removing the DPF I don't see much difference.

Click to expand...

Just say NO...

peterdaniel said:

Actually all diesels in CA from 1998 and on need a "smog" test which is another way of saying give us your money..

Click to expand...

NOT! It is about making sure people do not illegal remove or modify the equipment required to comply with the State Law.

Don't like California's standards, then move. Otherwise, just comply and be happy.

Go to a state with lax emissions and regulations and see what you get....

FWIW, my '09 TDI has been pretty flawless since new. However, I did run biodiesel for about 50 k miles. The engine began acting up. A friend with VAG-COM took readings and #1 cylinder was acting really weird. Took it to the local guru and learned the #1 injector was fully clogged. Could not get it to open up with ultrasound and various hard-core solvents. Finally had to settle for a new injector. This happened just before 90 k miles. It turns out the #4 injector was partially clogged, but was able to be opened up with ultrasound and solvents. Car is still running like a dream now, but with the guru's advice, I'm running only petro-diesel in it now. Not absolutely certain that this is due to bio-diesel, because anti-gel additives here in Alaska can be intense for about a quarter of the year. This did NOT occur in those months, though. Again, FWIW.

Mike, Curious what blend of biodiesel you were using for 50K mi. B100?

Max (OP) 2 years ago I bought a 2011 Q5 TDI with the 3.0 CR that had 125K mi. I gutted the DPF and did a Malone DPF delete stage 2 tune. I have run B100 but the car objected, going into limp mode on hard throttle when sensors did not like what was happening. I have since cut back to B50 or there'bouts, which seems to be tolerated. I use biodiesel from a trusted local producer who produces it from used fryer oil. I am now at 150K mi. with no motor issues...yet. As expected, fuel filter needed to be replaced once. You WILL NOT hear anyone on this forum advise you to run biodiesel in CR TDIs, just as there were dire warnings about running it in PD TDIs. My experience to date says that B50 with DPF delete in a CR TDI is probably OK - YMMV

FYI, I ran a 2005 PD TDI Jetta for ~ 100k mi. on recycled B100 with no problems.

Mike in Anchorage said:

FWIW, my '09 TDI has been pretty flawless since new. However, I did run biodiesel for about 50 k miles. The engine began acting up. A friend with VAG-COM took readings and #1 cylinder was acting really weird. Took it to the local guru and learned the #1 injector was fully clogged. Could not get it to open up with ultrasound and various hard-core solvents. Finally had to settle for a new injector. This happened just before 90 k miles. It turns out the #4 injector was partially clogged, but was able to be opened up with ultrasound and solvents. Car is still running like a dream now, but with the guru's advice, I'm running only petro-diesel in it now. Not absolutely certain that this is due to bio-diesel, because anti-gel additives here in Alaska can be intense for about a quarter of the year. This did NOT occur in those months, though. Again, FWIW.

Click to expand...

gdorris said:

Mike, Curious what blend of biodiesel you were using for 50K mi. B100?

Click to expand...

No, I would not even consider anything over 5% because I don't have the DPF delete. I may do it later, but would prefer not to. In effect, the bio was B2 to B5. Odd that the injectors were clogging at a time of year when anti-gels were at their lowest.

I'm open to ideas, even though the problem is "fixed" for now. The information seems to be appropriate to this thread. Also I'm no running a GDE [Green Diesel Engineering] tune, but that was done quite late in the process of the injector clogging and the local guru is 100% confident it has nothing to do with the clogging.