Show what you tow!

Towing large loads will lead to the tail wagging the dog. Dangerous at most speeds. I don't understand why you guys think it's cool to tow heavy and large loads. It can be dangerous for,you and other drivers around you when traveling. If you want to tow big loads get a vehicle that is larger and heavier than the load. If I want to tow something I use a real tow vehicle like my 4x4 GMC Yukon.

As you seem to have come in this thread to be argumentative I'll word this carefully as I don't want to indulge that.

I imagine that most of us would rather not have to keep around such a monstrosity for the few times we tow larger loads....honestly though I've seen very few if any guys in this thread that are towing more than the weight of the car for any distance longer than a few blocks if at all.

As a group I think that we are more aware and careful of our towing setups/weight balance/handling effects/towing speed than the average guys towing with huge SUVs and trucks that I see flying down the road at 75mph fully loaded.

I don't tow anything larger than my ~1500# camper and I can speak from first hand experience that it feels much more safe and stable than towing my parent's 10,000# camper with a V10 Excursion. My camper is ~48% of my vehicle weight whereas my parent's camper is ~148% of the tow vehicle's weight.



Also, tail-wagging is caused by un-evenly loading the trailer with more weight behind the axle more than the actual weight of the trailer/load itself.


Show what you tow

DerekG said:

As you seem to have come in this thread to be argumentative I'll word this carefully as I don't want to indulge that.
...
...
Show what you tow

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+1 +1
DerekG and the intelligent members of this board are the reason I even considered towing a trailer. This thread shows us how and how not to tow.

He's right, SAFELY towing HALF the weight of my vehicle at the correct speed seems to be the smarter choice than those 25 ft fifth wheels going 80MPH. Just because the vehicle is huge and 4x4 doesn't make it the only vehicle capable of towing safely.

Aknovaman said:

Towing large loads will lead to the tail wagging the dog. Dangerous at most speeds. I don't understand why you guys think it's cool to tow heavy and large loads. It can be dangerous for,you and other drivers around you when traveling. If you want to tow big loads get a vehicle that is larger and heavier than the load. If I want to tow something I use a real tow vehicle like my 4x4 GMC Yukon.

Click to expand...

I hope you realize that the vast majority of towed objects use a tow vehicle that is smaller and lighter than the load.

Like so many other things, it's not what you do, but how you do it.

An 8,000 lb truck pulling an improperly loaded 2,000 lb trailer will most definitely wag the dog. The same 8,000 lb truck pulling a properly loaded 20,000 lb trailer will be safe and stable.

Same goes for a 3,000 lb car pulling a 1,000 lb trailer (which is what 90%+ of the examples in this thread are). If it's done right, no problem. If done wrong - problems will ensue.

To each his own as I do not share some of your viewpoints. I need not apologize for stating my opinion among other things. I don't fit into your stereotype guy pulling a 5th wheel at unsafe speeds nor exceede the limits of my vehicle and family safety. I whole heartedly agree if towing wrong, problems will ensue. Good day.

I wouldn't expect an apology for an opinion nor should you feel like you need to offer it. That's the best part about an opinion....in my opinion . Also, if you noticed in my post I didn't suggest you were part of a stereotype. I was just referencing people that I have seen while towing my camper across the country.

We are all very much open to discussion about towing and would welcome anyone who wants to talk about it (that's why we're here lol). I think your post just came off as a bit patronizing mixed with some misinformation and that doesn't tend to translate well over the internet.

on topic


"Canyon Carving"

IMG_1261 by DerekG710, on Flickr

I would add one final comment: these vehicles with similar engines and transmissions are continually the top picks for towing in many European countries. Yes, they have different laws and regulations but that only forces those towing to have the correct set up before hitting the road.

Aknovaman said:

Towing large loads will lead to the tail wagging the dog. Dangerous at most speeds. I don't understand why you guys think it's cool to tow heavy and large loads. It can be dangerous for,you and other drivers around you when traveling. If you want to tow big loads get a vehicle that is larger and heavier than the load. If I want to tow something I use a real tow vehicle like my 4x4 GMC Yukon.

Click to expand...

Having towed quite heavy myself for several hundred miles on the highway/intestate, I can say the vehicle didn't feel unstable. I was at the car's European counterparts tow rating though, balanced the trailer, used a proper hitch, used a good proportional brake controller, and maintained speeds appropriate for my setup.

You can find plenty of pickups having wrecked pulling similar loads.

I've pulled the same travel trailer tens of thousands of miles around the country with our 7.3 PSD Excursion and 6.0 CCLB F350, and felt no less safe when passing or being passed by semi's etc on the highway than in my car. Your safety is far more about how you tow what you tow, than what you tow specifically. A larger more capable tow vehicle simply adds a larger safety margin for poorly set up loads and/or less experienced drivers.

Aknovaman said:

Towing large loads will lead to the tail wagging the dog. Dangerous at most speeds. I don't understand why you guys think it's cool to tow heavy and large loads. It can be dangerous for,you and other drivers around you when traveling. If you want to tow big loads get a vehicle that is larger and heavier than the load. If I want to tow something I use a real tow vehicle like my 4x4 GMC Yukon.

Click to expand...

Ahhh a classic case of misinformation spread by the good ole Internet. As others were quick to point out, your argument is flawed. But I will take it a step further and call it for what it is:completely wrong.

You mean to tell us that semis are towing all wrong? I mean the tractor weighs around 20k lbs
The trailer around 10k lbs
Payload 45-50k lbs.

I'll do the math for you. 60 k lbs with trailer and payload vs 20k lbs for the truck. The math is simple, the truck only weighs 1/3 of what the trailer and payload does.

As others were quick to mention, most folks on here tow small loads. Around 1-2k lbs. The cars weigh around 3600 lbs.

Tail wagging has everything to do with payload distribution and nothing to do with the weight of the tow vehicle. (For the most part )
-This is a fact, not opinion.

Please explain how your opinion based on misinformation is valid?



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

I have towed my 16' Scamp all over with my 2009 and 2013 JSW TDIs with no problem.
The biggest problem is the low tongue weight limit.
Properly balanced with about 8% on the hitch the car is stable.
The weight in the Scamp I have rebuilt of the purpose is near the axle and the cars are equipped with the VW electronic stabilization and trailer brakes of course.
SO I don't agree that this is unreasonable.
For years the VW TDIs have been rated as the best in Europe.
Having experience with this I think the both I and DerekG know more about this subject than someone who has never done it.
I had one guy use a video of a small car losing control and when viewed you can see that car actually hitting the Lorry it was overtaking and then losing control> It took a pretty big bang in the rear of the trailer to do it too.

Personal experience:
I towed 4000# from Logansport IN to Myrtle Beach with my golf, which is properly equipped with airbags, trailer brakes and more power, without issue. Very stable and safe.

I towed about 2000# of lumber home with my BMW X3 (4000#) from Lowes and got some serious tail wag.
I knew it was unbalanced and was traveling at low speed.

Proper setup and experience is key.

When setting out to find a tow vehicle for our little 13' Camplite (2,000 lbs fully loaded). We looked at 1/2 ton trucks, SUV's and Escalades. What makes these vehicles ideal tow vehicles? A solid frame, plenty of power, heavy and ability to stop with a trailer.

Then we looked at the tow rating published for our Mk4 and as we dug deeper, we discovered that in North America, auto manufacturers don't want people towing with cars, they wold rather have us pull trailers with big vehicles. Maybe there are too many variables resulting in potential issues and lawsuits?

You can see this position reinforced by the hitch manufacturers who only supply a hitch designed to carry some bikes.

So some of us have decided to go down a different road than the one the industry has designed for us.

After all, we drive these cars for many reasons, where we could be driving a Prius or Corolla.

European TDI's seem to be made from some extra good stuff to allow them to pull bigger trailers and be very good at it!

When we decided to avoid the big gas guzzling tow vehicle and invest in the little TDI to give it some of the attributes of the big tow vehicles, we made a list of things to do:

1) Install massive brakes so that we could stop the car and trailer easily.
2) Install a class 3 trailer hitch (none are available in N.A.) design and implement a ultra strong hitch. Over designed to increase tongue weight to 300 lbs.
3) Install a brake controller unit.
4) Buy and trailer with electric trailer brakes.
5) Install sway control unit on hitch.
6) Modify engine to pull trailer at cruising speeds 100 kph (60 mph) with ease.
7) Keep trailer weight at max 2,000 lbs. (don't take on water). Just over half of our GVW.
8) Load balance trailer contents over trailer axle.

We feel very confident in these choices. Our first trip was very hilling with windy roads and the car and trailer were incredible.

Compared to when we picked up the trailer last September, We used a near new F250 and it was terrible. We had a 4 hour highway drive and that was all I could handle. Hard to keep it at 100 kph and lots of sway. The trailer weighed in at 1,600 lbs during that drive.

I have an SUV (Honda Element) and would not consider pulling a trailer with it. It can barely stop itself and has a hard time moving along compared to the Beetle.

It really comes down to your comfort level, your ability to handle the rig, some basic physics and a lot of help from others and their experiences.

The US made hitches that do not mount where the VW engineers tell them are not good for over a very low rating.
The Bosal, and Westfalia mount in the "frame rails" ( the hitch on my Chrysler Town and Country does as well) and couple the loads adequately into the chassis.
The VW when setup like the Euro spec includes a trailer stability function (as does the T&C). The Transmission and engine fueling and cooling are remapped as well.
I found the JSW TDI quite capable. The Golf is actually rated higher than the Sportwagen in Europe since the distance from the rear axle centerline is shorter.
Use a Euro hitch and add the trailer wiring kit (for the Trailer Stability functions and trailer lights) and you are good to go.
I used the UK ratings myself (Yeah Yeah, I know) and their ratings are derived in a similar manner to the SAE 2709. As a matter of fact most manufacturers test their trailer towing here in the USA.

oilcan_boyd said:

Personal experience:


Proper setup and experience is key.

Click to expand...

Yes!

Unfortunately bumper pulling will never be proper. You can't safely put tremendous weight on the tow vehicle unless you go with a Kingpin or gooseneck which, whola! Is pinned over the axle(s).

Reese hitches and bumper pulling, once again, are not the answer.

People get buy, but you can't pull like a semi. It's impossible to safely put any weight on the tow vehicle.

There's a a reason once you into bigger trailers they are not bumper ball hitches. Which suck. If I bumper pull I at least go pintle....


Sent from my S-Off'ed HTC One...

jason_ said:

Yes!

Unfortunately bumper pulling will never be proper. You can't safely put tremendous weight on the tow vehicle unless you go with a Kingpin or gooseneck which, whola! Is pinned over the axle(s).

Reese hitches and bumper pulling, once again, are not the answer.

People get buy, but you can't pull like a semi. It's impossible to safely put any weight on the tow vehicle.

There's a a reason once you into bigger trailers they are not bumper ball hitches. Which suck. If I bumper pull I at least go pintle....


Sent from my S-Off'ed HTC One...

Click to expand...

Luckily, no one here is putting tremendous weight on the vehicle. Is someone here trying to pull like a semi? 4k is not a "bigger trailer." I think the upper end with most here is around 4k, and that doesn't appear common. 2k seems more average. Bumper pull trailers are extremely common, and if they were as impossible to safely tow as you suggest, they wouldn't be.

Then you mention a pintle like it somehow alleviates the inherent flaws with bumper pull, which would be:

The transfer of weight off the front wheels causing instability. Pintle doesn't alter the pivot and loading point on the TV, so it gives no benefit here.

Then there's sway caused by the trailer effectively having a lever on the car. Again, pintle doesn't help here as it doesn't change the pivot point.

The pintle hitch does allow one to tow considerably more, at least 20k depending on the setup. Even if someone went crazy and pulled 5 or 6k with their TDI and a bumper pull, they'd be just as well served by a 2" ball.

What can help the flaws of bumper pulling is a weight distributing hitch, which transfers weight back to the front end. A good sway control hitch helps alleviate that as well. Some setups by adding a friction element to resist a change of angle between the tow vehicle and trailer, others by using spring bars who's resistance must be overcome to change the angle between the tow vehicle and trailer. Those also actively try to return the vehicle/trailer to a straight line. So these alleviate some issues with bumper pulling that may be experienced by people here, pintle hitches do not.

The last pintle hitch I saw was on the business end of a gun. A heavy gun.
This has no relationship to towing a small trailer.
You are welcome to not tow with your TDI, I am OK with that.
Others are happy towing with their TDIs. I am good with that as well.
Some people should not tow at all, no matter how the rig is set up.
In Great Britain extra training and licensing is required to tow over 85% of the weight of the tow vehicle. Not a bad idea and that happens to be close to the approved towing rating for these cars.
By the way those heavy duty brakes you sepak of are not used that much.
With my 2800 lb Scamp and it's electric brakes and the P-3 brake controller you can't tell any difference in braking with or without the trailer.
The trailer stability system is turned on by the trailer module in the electrical kit for the Euro electrics and is a BIG Deal which has been copied by US manufacturers (My new Town and Country van has one too)

redbarron55 said:

The US made hitches that do not mount where the VW engineers tell them are not good for over a very low rating.
The Bosal, and Westfalia mount in the "frame rails" ( the hitch on my Chrysler Town and Country does as well) and couple the loads adequately into the chassis.
The VW when setup like the Euro spec includes a trailer stability function (as does the T&C). The Transmission and engine fueling and cooling are remapped as well.
I found the JSW TDI quite capable. The Golf is actually rated higher than the Sportwagen in Europe since the distance from the rear axle centerline is shorter.
Use a Euro hitch and add the trailer wiring kit (for the Trailer Stability functions and trailer lights) and you are good to go.
I used the UK ratings myself (Yeah Yeah, I know) and their ratings are derived in a similar manner to the SAE 2709. As a matter of fact most manufacturers test their trailer towing here in the USA.

Click to expand...

trail stability function working with the cars ESP? Is this right?

Is the trailer stability something that is available to work with a MKIV? I have a Bosal hitch.

fase2000TDI said:

trail stability function working with the cars ESP? Is this right?

Is the trailer stability something that is available to work with a MKIV? I have a Bosal hitch.

Click to expand...

Yes that's correct. The trailer module works with the cars esp to prevent tail wagging. Basing it off of pfjones site, it doesn't look like they offer the westfalia tow module for the mk4. Seems as if only for the mk5 and up. But it could be that it's discontinued or something.

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jason_ said:

Yes!

Unfortunately bumper pulling will never be proper. You can't safely put tremendous weight on the tow vehicle unless you go with a Kingpin or gooseneck which, whola! Is pinned over the axle(s).

Reese hitches and bumper pulling, once again, are not the answer.

People get buy, but you can't pull like a semi. It's impossible to safely put any weight on the tow vehicle.

There's a a reason once you into bigger trailers they are not bumper ball hitches. Which suck. If I bumper pull I at least go pintle....


Sent from my S-Off'ed HTC One...

Click to expand...

If you want to see big loads on "bumpers" check out the Fountain boat guys. They to 20-40k lbs with 350/3500 pickups connecting at the rear, they use a ball hitch and overall seem happy with it.
I keep running in to their post online looking for information on building a trailer for the Duffy Electric boat.

fase2000TDI said:

trail stability function working with the cars ESP? Is this right?

Is the trailer stability something that is available to work with a MKIV? I have a Bosal hitch.

Click to expand...

I can't guarantee that the ESP does anything special in the MKIV for trailers, but I can guarantee that I have intentionally done dumb things with a trailer in a giant empty gravel parking lot and the response from MKIV ESP was nothing short of amazing.

nate0031 said:

Luckily, no one here is putting tremendous weight on the vehicle. Is someone here trying to pull like a semi? 4k is not a "bigger trailer." I think the upper end with most here is around 4k, and that doesn't appear common. 2k seems more average. Bumper pull trailers are extremely common, and if they were as impossible to safely tow as you suggest, they wouldn't be.

Then you mention a pintle like it somehow alleviates the inherent flaws with bumper pull, which would be:

The transfer of weight off the front wheels causing instability. Pintle doesn't alter the pivot and loading point on the TV, so it gives no benefit here.

Then there's sway caused by the trailer effectively having a lever on the car. Again, pintle doesn't help here as it doesn't change the pivot point.

The pintle hitch does allow one to tow considerably more, at least 20k depending on the setup. Even if someone went crazy and pulled 5 or 6k with their TDI and a bumper pull, they'd be just as well served by a 2" ball.

What can help the flaws of bumper pulling is a weight distributing hitch, which transfers weight back to the front end. A good sway control hitch helps alleviate that as well. Some setups by adding a friction element to resist a change of angle between the tow vehicle and trailer, others by using spring bars who's resistance must be overcome to change the angle between the tow vehicle and trailer. Those also actively try to return the vehicle/trailer to a straight line. So these alleviate some issues with bumper pulling that may be experienced by people here, pintle hitches do not.

Click to expand...

I was implying I prefer pintle eyes over ball socket when tackling bumper scenarios.

But my relation of posting was pointing out, not the car people, but truck and up people, who try and pull heavy heavy loads with a bumper, and the safety factor doesn't scale with the tow vehicle/payload factor.

It actually gets worse, and at a certain point bumper pulling becomes exponentially ridiculously unsafe, no matter how you load the trailer.


Sent from my S-Off'ed HTC One...

Towing

One photo is 1/3 cord of wet hardwood loaded into a 4x6 with curt style hitch going a smooth 70 with dsg trans. My 2012 owners manual doesn't seem to tell me not to tow with it. It even gives a dog tow rating. No tow problems with ample braking distance. Trailer tracks great even in wind and rain.
The stock car pulling off 16" rims looks good, however all the trailer gate hardware blew off on that ride, and bottom scraped on bumps. Selling this rig and hoping to get a long awaited 1.9 ti with bosal hitch. Curt style hitch is too low and rusty, and the electrical gets destroyed by getting dragged, because there is no where to mount or attach it.

Now you just need to learn how to properly post pictures!

Getting ready for a sled trip, with our Bosal hitch equipped Wagon. Wagon has VNT17, tune and upgraded SMIC. Pulls along nicely.

Hello,

I find myself wondering about tire pressures. In the trailer tire world, the consensus seems to be that the tire must be inflated to the full sidewall pressure because the tire is designed to be rigid. However, I have H-rated passenger tires on my trailer, which ARE made to flex for comfort.

Perhaps I'm overthinking this, or not thinking enough, but I'm seeing the following possibility, understanding that there are flaws in my calculations:

VW calls for 33 psi in a 195/65R15 that's carrying a 4000-lb car (four tires carrying a car and passengers). At ~1000 lbs per tire, that's 1000/33 = 30.3 sq-in. Divide that by the approximate tire width of 7.7" gives us 3.93". I'm using that as a loose calculation of how much the tire can be loaded... a footprint (if you will) of 7.7x3.93 inches. So anything smaller than that should mean the tire is compressed less and sufficiently inflated, right?

Since my trailer would never carry more than 1000 lbs, that gives me a starting point of half that at 500 lbs per tire. That means that even if I were to inflate to only 20 psi, I'd still have: 500/20 = 25 sq-in. Divide that by 7.7" and I'm left with 3.24, meaning a footprint of 7.7x3.24". That's telling me that the tire is still being compressed less than it would be if under a car. Is that correct?

Since my trailer usually weighs less than 500 lbs, I could theoretically run with half of that, but that would be silly.

Am I crazy to think it's okay to use 20-psi in my trailer when lightly loaded and then 25 psi when loaded to 1000 lbs? What am I missing? I don't want to under-inflate and ruin my tires; but I also don't want to over-inflate and jolt my load. What do you think?

Thanks,

Scott

I would run the same pressure as the car. If you're under inflated, it can lead to earlier sidewall failure. My kayak/bike trailer tires give an inflation range and I usually put those at just over the bottom pressure.

Stealth TDI said:

Am I crazy to think it's okay to use 20-psi in my trailer when lightly loaded and then 25 psi when loaded to 1000 lbs? What am I missing?

Click to expand...

I go by the "max load at max pressure" label.

example: "max load 1188 lbs at 44 PSI"

1188 divided by 44 equals = 27 lbs per PSI of air pressure

Need to haul 1000 lbs?

1000 lbs divided by two tires is 500 lbs per tire

500 lbs divided by 27 lbs per PSI equals 18.5 PSI

I would probably run 20 PSI with this combination just 'cause it is a nice round number, I would go lower when unloaded if there was excessive noise and bouncing of the trailer.

I always adjust trailer tires based on load. Hard on everything if you don't. Not as much travel in the suspension system on a trailer as the car nor is there shocks.

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Hello,

NarfBLAST said:

I go by the "max load at max pressure" label... I would probably run 20 PSI with this combination...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip. Looks like we used different math to reach similar conclusions. My tires are 1356 max load at 51 psi. So 1000 lbs puts me at needing 18.8 psi. I think 20 psi will work fine.

I don't have a hitch on the new car yet, but I hope to be ready for towing in March. Still need to order an EcoHitch and a lighting harness.

Scott

From discussions over at the camper forums this topic was discussed to death. Reality is tire pressure vs inflation is not a linear correlation. There is a lower safe inflation limit regardless of load and Fords with Firestone illustrated this very well. You would have to get a hold of tire representative to find the value for your tires, and I expect that is about as easy as finding out the actual cetane at the pump.

As for what is a good value? I would go with the lowest number from cars using that tire. '03 M4 gives values based on load and speed so that may help.

Jason