NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

JerryKib · Sep 19, 2012

Sohappy said:
Had a hpfp failure on my 2013 Passat TDI - while on original tank from VW. They indicate fuel contamination... and recommend buying diesel only from high volume stations....

So far, only BP explicitly warrants the quality of their fuel - covering repairs due to poor fuel -- see their website. I couldn't find anyone else... so I guess BP it will be with a log book of diesel purchases and receipts.

Is VW going to cover the cost of your repairs? Did they test the fuel in the car to verify the contamination that they claim, and did they show you the results?

I would be interested to know just what has to be done to fix your Passat.

pinkertonfloyd · Sep 19, 2012

Blackheart said:
Sohappy said:

Had a hpfp failure on my 2013 Passat TDI - while on original tank from VW. They indicate fuel contamination... and recommend buying diesel only from high volume stations....

So, a VW employee didn't follow VW's own recommendations when filling the tank? Or, is contamination not really the issue? Sounds like a lot of too-typical dodging and pointing fingers to me....

Click to expand...

Since the NHTSA documents already show VW admiting that they had 120 Misfuels done by DEALERS, this sounds like another.

Most likely the porter/salesman put the wrong gas when "topping it off"
I guess they didn't look at the circus-like stickers on the filler (or the dealer, GASP forgot to install them in PDI (because deaelrs do such a bang-up-job on PDI).

I love "recommend buying diesel only from high volume stations"... sounds like the dealer didn't follow their own statement. =-). (Doubtful, the dealers usually are near high-volume dealers).

And wrong fuel going into tanks is RARE, usually Diesel and Gas Deliveries are done on different trucks, and most of the stations around here have the tanks marked off so different (and many the Diesel tanks are completely separate from gas)... so a misfuel by the truck is very rare.

Click to expand...

pinkertonfloyd · Sep 19, 2012

Sohappy said:
Had a hpfp failure on my 2013 Passat TDI - while on original tank from VW. They indicate fuel contamination... and recommend buying diesel only from high volume stations....

So far, only BP explicitly warrants the quality of their fuel - covering repairs due to poor fuel -- see their website. I couldn't find anyone else... so I guess BP it will be with a log book of diesel purchases and receipts.

I just pop my receipts in the center console, and every month or so I staple them together then throw them into an envelope in my office "just in case".

kydsid · Sep 19, 2012

pinkertonfloyd said:
Since the NHTSA documents already show VW admiting that they had 120 Misfuels done by DEALERS, this sounds like another.

Most likely the porter/salesman put the wrong gas when "topping it off"
I guess they didn't look at the circus-like stickers on the filler (or the dealer, GASP forgot to install them in PDI (because deaelrs do such a bang-up-job on PDI).

I love "recommend buying diesel only from high volume stations"... sounds like the dealer didn't follow their own statement. =-). (Doubtful, the dealers usually are near high-volume dealers).

And wrong fuel going into tanks is RARE, usually Diesel and Gas Deliveries are done on different trucks, and most of the stations around here have the tanks marked off so different (and many the Diesel tanks are completely separate from gas)... so a misfuel by the truck is very rare.

The 2013 Passats have a "idiot proof' misfuel prevention guard though. The nozzle has to be the auto diesel size to correctly push on two tabs to allow fueling. A gas nozzel shouldn't be able to fuel a 2013.

Or VW just found a better idiot.

LRTDI · Sep 19, 2012

kydsid said:
pinkertonfloyd said:

Blackheart said:

The 2013 Passats have a "idiot proof' misfuel prevention guard though. The nozzle has to be the auto diesel size to correctly push on two tabs to allow fueling. A gas nozzel shouldn't be able to fuel a 2013.

Or VW just found a better idiot.

Click to expand...

Every village needs one of those.

Click to expand...

LRTDI · Sep 19, 2012

Blackheart said:
Sohappy said:

Had a hpfp failure on my 2013 Passat TDI - while on original tank from VW. They indicate fuel contamination... and recommend buying diesel only from high volume stations....

So, a VW employee didn't follow VW's own recommendations when filling the tank? Or, is contamination not really the issue? Sounds like a lot of too-typical dodging and pointing fingers to me....

Click to expand...

Guess the dealer filled it with gasoline.
If VW wont pay, the dealer will have to.

Click to expand...

MPBsr · Sep 19, 2012

LRTDI said:
Blackheart said:

Sohappy said:

Had a hpfp failure on my 2013 Passat TDI - while on original tank from VW. They indicate fuel contamination... and recommend buying diesel only from high volume stations....

Guess the dealer filled it with gasoline.
If VW wont pay, the dealer will have to.

Click to expand...

Not if it ran for 440 miles.

Click to expand...

Softrockrenegade · Sep 19, 2012

Sounds like a defective pump ... If not VW has a lot of explaining to do considering the new filler neck mech and the sticker recall .... The new "gas rejecting" filler neck may be the nail in the coffin if the new passats start having a number of failures ... No more gasoline contamination scapegoat !

GTIDan · Sep 20, 2012

The stories about the HPFP failures are becoming more and more suspect. Anyone think a few corporate trolls might be trying to stir things up here. Would really like to see a full copy of the dealer work order on the 2013 pump failure. Hard to believe a copy wouldn't exist.........don't you?
Anyone else like to see it? Yeah, thought so.

As for my own car. I just had a second door latch assembly take a dump. First it was the driver's door about two years ago........now the driver's side rear door. Can't lock the car. My car is 2600 miles out of warranty but MY dealer offered to replace it for free. Hard to beat that. But, yes, I'm waiting for the other two doors to go south and I'm sure if they do I'm on the hook.
Still lovin the car anyway.

The driver's rear door latch assembly was replaced this past Saturday free under the heading 'goodwill'. Appreciate that insofar as I shown an invoice for VW totaling 305 dollars......what it would have cost me. Now as a segway to stay on point here as I was about to leave a tow truck pulled in with a 2011 JSW and dropped it off. A TDI (natch) that would not start. My mechanic checked the fuel filter and found metal.........HPFP gone. Here's where it got interesting. I asked him if they were going to check the fuel and he said no. The service manager said if the car is under warranty VW will fix it.....no questions. The car, by the way, has 23K miles on the OD. Seems VW is stepping up here.

thebigarniedog · Sep 21, 2012

Data-saurus said:
After getting my 2011 Jetta back from the dealer this week (HPFP failure), I was informed that the factory rep had been through several days prior.

Reportedly, they're going to chalk these up to bad fuel, and stop warrantying these failures.

But that's third-hand... so make of it what you will.

If VW has made a fuel sysfem this friggin' fragile, with this large a price-tag to repair, I'm done owning a volkwagen.

Seriously.

and yet, the new Passats do not seem to be having this problem? Yep, must be the fuel ........

turbocharged798 · Sep 21, 2012

Data-saurus said:
After getting my 2011 Jetta back from the dealer this week (HPFP failure), I was informed that the factory rep had been through several days prior.
Reportedly, they're going to chalk these up to bad fuel, and stop warrantying these failures.
But that's third-hand... so make of it what you will.
If VW has made a fuel sysfem this friggin' fragile, with this large a price-tag to repair, I'm done owning a volkwagen.
Seriously.

Sell it and buy a manual trans ALH car...

LRTDI · Sep 21, 2012

VW will have a tough time blaming bad fuel when they don't issue dealers with fuel test kits and lack any kind of protocol that is attorney proof for testing.

istone · Sep 21, 2012

i have now joined this totally awesome club of HPFP failure.

my car has been at VW dealer for over 10 days now, waiting on parts. once parts finally came in, they said they were testing my fuel for biodiesel and if they found more than 5% VW of A would likely deny the claim under warranty. and if so, it is a $10k fix.
hardly trivial on a 2year old vehicle with 48k miles on it.

i am really, really worried that they are not going to cover the repairs under warranty.

i have an ext warranty, but not sure if that will kick in since the dealer powertrain hasn't expired yet.

would you say i should take the vehicle somewhere else if they tell me its not covered? regarding the 100k mile ext warranty that i have - can i use that for this repair if VW of A denys me due to bad fuel? or will the ext warranty co deny it as well?

can any shop use the extended warranty or does it need to be a VW dealer only?

thanks for the help!

WutGas? · Sep 21, 2012

I guess my first question would be - Did you use biodiesel in higher concentrations than 5%?

You may not want to answer this though.

Lightflyer1 · Sep 21, 2012

File with the NHTSA first and let the dealer know that you are doing so. Open a case with VW customer care. Request a fuel sample of your own taken in your presence. If you have any paperwork that shows this is what the dealer determined, please post a copy here for those that don't believe (some want to see some kind of proof when these claims are made). Are you sure you fueled with diesel only or a less than 5% bio blend? Work with the dealer as best you can until refusal then a lawyer may be needed. Request any testing results that they say show fuel contamination. Read through the long thread here on this to famialrize yourself with all that is happening.

Roshermoore · Sep 21, 2012

istone said:
i have an ext warranty, but not sure if that will kick in since the dealer powertrain hasn't expired yet.

would you say i should take the vehicle somewhere else if they tell me its not covered? regarding the 100k mile ext warranty that i have - can i use that for this repair if VW of A denys me due to bad fuel? or will the ext warranty co deny it as well?

can any shop use the extended warranty or does it need to be a VW dealer only?

From your questions, it doesn't sound like you've read the terms of your extended warranty. Warranties vary widely in what conditions must be met in order for them to be used. READ YOUR WARRANTY. Then you should be able to answer your own question.

kydsid · Sep 21, 2012

LRTDI said:
VW will ....

Shh, VW might read the forums. .... don't help them.

STRANGETDI · Sep 21, 2012

istone said:
i have now joined this totally awesome club of HPFP failure.

my car has been at VW dealer for over 10 days now, waiting on parts. once parts finally came in, they said they were testing my fuel for biodiesel and if they found more than 5% VW of A would likely deny the claim under warranty. and if so, it is a $10k fix.
hardly trivial on a 2year old vehicle with 48k miles on it.

i am really, really worried that they are not going to cover the repairs under warranty.

i have an ext warranty, but not sure if that will kick in since the dealer powertrain hasn't expired yet.

would you say i should take the vehicle somewhere else if they tell me its not covered? regarding the 100k mile ext warranty that i have - can i use that for this repair if VW of A denys me due to bad fuel? or will the ext warranty co deny it as well?

can any shop use the extended warranty or does it need to be a VW dealer only?

thanks for the help!

I beleive you can make an insurance claim as well to have this covered if not covered by VW, warranty, or extended warranty.

istone · Sep 21, 2012

seems like the ext warranty people will call VW to find out why they didn't cover the warranty. most likely, they go along w/ what VW says but in some cases they don't.
but overall, sounds like regardless of whether i take it to an ind. shop vs. dealer doesn't matter. I can have the repairs done anywhere. However, if they determine that the vehicle is still covered under warranty or powertrain, they will make contact with VW to determine why they didn't cover it. and in most cases they will side with vw.

kydsid · Sep 21, 2012

I do not remember, but is the usage of less than 5% bio a condition within the powertrain warranty or any warrantier or simply a guideline from the owners manual. If it is not in the warranty VW or the third party warranty company would be in violation of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty act if it wasn't clearly identified as a term.

Lightflyer1 · Sep 21, 2012

If VW refuses due to contaminated fuel, very very high chance the extended warranty company will refuse as well for the same reason. "If" you were using greater than 5% bio the fuel supplier is also going to refuse responsibility. They supplied good fuel just not in accordance with VW's mandate. An insurance claim will probably be refused as well for the same reasons (neglect?). So if you were using greater than 5% bio I think this one is on you to repair. Some retailers though do state that their fuel does contain between 5% and 20% bio. If this was the case you may have a chance at getting a claim against someone to stick due to the unknown bio%.

kydsid · Sep 21, 2012

What are you supposed to do if you just drive through a state with a higher mandate and have to fill up? Isn't a condition of the Magnusson-Moss act that the Warranty provider must prove your neglect, part, fluid choice etc led to the failure. What exactly are they going to say is proof that greater than 5% bio cause a pump failure?

All fishy to me, hoping the customer doesn't know their rights.

bhtooefr · Sep 21, 2012

I believe right now, the highest mandate is 2%.

In any case, do you really want to go up against VW in a court?

Myself, if I lived in IL, where there's no mandate, but B5 or less is hard to come by, I would not own a CR in warranty. (Out of warranty, I'd have no problem with up to B20, on a Passat.)

kydsid · Sep 21, 2012

When I was in New Mexico in June and asked about the Bio content at a Love's the guy commented that the state was going to require a minimum of B5 starting in July. Don't know if that went into effect though.

As far as facing off with VW, why not, I've learned from my career that big company lawyers aren't anything to be afraid of, plus I'm a vindictive ahole and glutton for punishment.

bhtooefr · Sep 21, 2012

The other thing with facing off with VW is, it could take years to complete the case.

The fix would either have to be paid for out of pocket, or the car sits dead for years until the court case is over.

turbocharged798 · Sep 21, 2012

There is no way bio can cause a HPFP failure. The pumps blow because Bosch made a POS pump. I don't care if they are misfuels or not, the pump is a POS. It should be designed to handle less than optimal conditions. VW keeps sweeping this crap under the rug and is only going to bite them in the end if NTHSA forces a recall. Right form the start when the 09s started blowing pumps VW should have told Bosch to go back to the board and make a better pump. Now they have how many thousands of cars with these crap pumps that cause huge $$$ in damage because they don't just fail, they blow up to pieces.

Sorry if I posted this before but I just had update my current feelings on the topic. I hope VWOA reads it and takes note.

Second Turbo · Sep 21, 2012

Extended Wishing

> i have an ext warranty, but ...

Keep in mind the design objectives of the typical EW:

Provide extra profit to the EW seller.
Provide simulated peace of mind to the buyer (only up until they file a claim).
Act to ensure that a #2 claim never threatens #1.

If a product really needs an EW, the product itself really needs to not be bought in the first place.

kjclow · Sep 21, 2012

turbocharged798 said:
There is no way bio can cause a HPFP failure.

That's a pretty broad statement. To clarify, you needed to state that bio sold through a major retailer should not be the cause of hpfp failures. My understanding is that the problems associated with bio are related to their sourcing. We'll assume that the conversation only refers to virgin oil and not wvo. Even vigin oil can have differences in content and the possibility of water entrainment.

pinkertonfloyd · Sep 22, 2012

bhtooefr said:
I believe right now, the highest mandate is 2%.

In any case, do you really want to go up against VW in a court?

Myself, if I lived in IL, where there's no mandate, but B5 or less is hard to come by, I would not own a CR in warranty. (Out of warranty, I'd have no problem with up to B20, on a Passat.)

In California (where this person is located) there is no Biodiesel Mandate, it is quite HARD to find it really, other than Propel in Norcal, I rarely see it at all.
CARB is anti-bio saying that it's not a Fuel, and produces more Co2 to produce (??? But Ethanol is OKAY???) (Then Again CARB would love to shut all diesels down, we're all supposed to drive electric cars by 2020 according to them).

There was a story the other day that diesels are so clean that a char broiler cooking ONE hamburger patty was the same as a Diesel Semi driving 144 Miles. Of course this was not taken as "Diesels are very clean", but "WE NEED TO MANDATE RESTRICTIONS ON HAMBURGER JOINTS ASAP".

Marlyece · Sep 22, 2012

timeline

Doesn't NHTSA have a deadline for this HPFP problem? Hasn't it been years since the investigation opened?

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

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