Auto Trans Preservation

denismccar

Active member
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Location
Saint Louis
TDI
'05 B5.5 Passat Wagon GL TDI, '04 BEW Jetta TDI
Continually read how the auto trans goes bad on these.
2 questions:
1. Advice on auto trans preventative maint. Had the trans fluid/filters etc replaced when I got it with 160k. Now at 220k. Anything else I need to be doing ? If it does go bad, don't want to do conversion as I prefer auto in it. Drives great as of now.
2. Are there advanced warning signs I should be aware of regarding failure ? I sometimes embark 3k-4k round trips and obviously don't want to set off on one of those with potential warning signs brewing.
I've had TB, BS Delete etc taken care of but now just worried about trans. I have VCDS and nothing showing for trans issues....want to keep it that way.:)
Thanks.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
ZF says to flush the fluid every 100k km. I don't see much problem with them when cared for, but the torque converters can require replacement from time to time. Doesn't mean the whole trans needs to be replaced.

Any automatic can fail suddenly, without warning. That is the risk you take for the convenience of not rowing your own gears.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
As Oilhammer stated, ZF's recommendation to change filter and fluid is every 60,000 miles (100k km--close enough).

It does seem that some of the ZF's common failure points start from wear in the valve body's pressure regulator bore. From breaking drums, to harsh or delayed shifting issues to possibly even blowing out the torque converter seal.

I'm not an auto transmission expert by any means (you'd have to ask for CoolAirVW's thoughts if you want a real transmission expert's input), but it does seem there is a good solution here.

That valve effectively uses plastic piston rings that can expand some to compensate for wear in the pressure regulator valve bore and keep the pressure spikes in check that cause so many of the failure modes this transmission is known for. I know CoolAirVW isn't keen on some of their other kits for other transmissions, but I think this one is actually a very solid solution for the ZF 5HP19 slushboxes and I think I may have heard him say the same about this very kit. Don't quote me on that, though!
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
There was some updates to the 5HP19 transmissions around the 2000 model year that addressed some of the valve body control side strangeness, so all [our] TDIs would have never been subjected to that.

A version of this transmission was also used in some BMW products, so a lot of the available info at least on the internals is found through BMW experts' experiences.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
As with anything else, selecting the best protecting fluid for the application can also go a long way. Red Line has their D4 ATF that is technically compatible with these transmissions, and they like to use a synthetic basestock oil that has some ester in it, which has a polarizing effect on metals--makes them repel eachother. It seems to have very excellent anti-wear properties.
 

zzdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Location
sask. mostly now Wa.
TDI
05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
I changed the fluid on my wifes 05 Passat at 160k. Very dark and lots of stuff in the pan. I changed it again at 20k later without a new filter, as a change is only a partial amount of the fluid. I intend to change the fluid at every second engine oil change. I have a hoist so it is easy. I did needed to R and R the TC about 210k.
 

Brian's96TDIPASSAT

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2000
Location
Connecticut, USA
TDI
15 Golf TDI SEL 14 Passat SEL, bought back by VW 11 Golf TDI, bought back by VW 05 Passat TDI 96 Passat TDI, sold
There was some updates to the 5HP19 transmissions around the 2000 model year that addressed some of the valve body control side strangeness, so all [our] TDIs would have never been subjected to that.
A version of this transmission was also used in some BMW products, so a lot of the available info at least on the internals is found through BMW experts' experiences.
It's a pretty versatile trans. BMW used it, VW used it, Audi used it in AWD veh's. BMW's version was RWD. Like everyone said, changing the fluid and filter. I've seen the D drum issue with reverse but mostly converter clutch slippage issues but have seen units go over 300K with no issues with normal care.
 

BlackBHW

Active member
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Location
Moyock nc
TDI
99.5 Jetta ALH. 05 B5.5 Passat
I’m a technician for a living but not on VW, that being said I have a 05 Passat I’m in the process of building the BHW in with colt cam BSM delete etc. my question is what fluid can you run in this 5HP19FL transmission. The fluid from the dealer is high as jaraffe balls! The trans was replaced in 2010 according to the sticker on the bell housing so I assume it has all the updates..... I’m unsure of the mileage but the fluid is pretty dark. I plan to service it every 30k like I do all my cars. I’ve heard of using valvoline maxlife atf which is full synthetic but not sure if that’s ok or not...
 

zzdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Location
sask. mostly now Wa.
TDI
05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
I use Pentosin synthetic tranny fluid. Recommended for the car. Available on ebay for 50.00 for 5 liters, I also use there engine oil.
 

BlackBHW

Active member
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Location
Moyock nc
TDI
99.5 Jetta ALH. 05 B5.5 Passat
I use Pentosin synthetic tranny fluid. Recommended for the car. Available on ebay for 50.00 for 5 liters, I also use there engine oil.
Couldn’t find that for that price but I did find febi atf 1, 5 L jug for $45
 

highmileage

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2013
Location
new jersey
TDI
2005 passat bhw tdi (presently), 2001 jetta alh tdi (previously), 1998 jetta ahu tdi (previously)
Fluids

I use Ravenol fluid products which are made in Germany. From what I've read they seem to be a quality product. Purchased from blauparts.com.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
It's a pretty versatile trans. BMW used it, VW used it, Audi used it in AWD veh's. BMW's version was RWD. Like everyone said, changing the fluid and filter. I've seen the D drum issue with reverse but mostly converter clutch slippage issues but have seen units go over 300K with no issues with normal care.
News flash: Audi is part of Volkswagen. ;) My AWD Passat uses the exact same 5HP19FLA as an AWD Audi A4 or A6. Porsche (also part of Volkswagen, in a roundabout way) uses a version of this transmission too, in the Boxster (in the back end, obviously).

As far as fluid, we use Pentosin branded ATF-1, there is also ZF Lifeguard 5 ATF.

Remember, not all ZF autoboxes spec the same ATF. The correct stuff is not red, but a golden honey color, and normally darkens with time.
 

afarfalla

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Location
sugar land tx
TDI
05 Passat sedan and 05 wagen
Problems with this transmission TC, valve body and clutch's, you can change the fluid every week it will not help those 3 items
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Our shop services a LOT of different vehicles, I would say this ZF slushbox is certainly not as good as the old longitudinal Aisin, but better than a lot of GM and Ford units, and certainly better than anything Chrysler has attempted in the last 25 years. And they are better than the 095/096/01M VAG cursed upon untold numbers of people. Honda has had some real turds, too.

ALL automatics are a liability. The are ALL complicated once you add in all the electronic controls, various overdrives and locking bits, etc.

Aside from the converter, I do not routinely see much problems with these in VAG products. Given the fact that I see more of these than a lot of people do, I'd say that is pretty good. I've certainly had to replace a few, but that number is relatively low. Our shop has already replaced more Ford 4R70W transmissions THIS MONTH than I have ZF transmissions (in ANYTHING) in the last 5 years combined, LOL.

And I DO have a dog in this fight, as I still have two of these... one almost at 200k, the other at 220k+. Still original, still working fine, maintained properly as ZF instructed. I do not submit to the "lifetime" fluid.

I also think a LOT of these end up getting either ruined or needlessly rebuilt/replaced because of the torque converter, which is not cause for a whole transmission if just addressed right away. And there is also the specter of neglected sunroof/cowl drains causing the TCM to be ruined, which to someone who doesn't know any better, could also be cause for transmission condemnation and who knows what happened to those cars then.
 

Brian's96TDIPASSAT

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2000
Location
Connecticut, USA
TDI
15 Golf TDI SEL 14 Passat SEL, bought back by VW 11 Golf TDI, bought back by VW 05 Passat TDI 96 Passat TDI, sold
News flash: Audi is part of Volkswagen. ;) My AWD Passat uses the exact same 5HP19FLA as an AWD Audi A4 or A6. Porsche (also part of Volkswagen, in a roundabout way) uses a version of this transmission too, in the Boxster (in the back end, obviously).

As far as fluid, we use Pentosin branded ATF-1, there is also ZF Lifeguard 5 ATF.

Remember, not all ZF autoboxes spec the same ATF. The correct stuff is not red, but a golden honey color, and normally darkens with time.
I"m pretty well versed on the VW/Audi/Porsche being one company. In fact, if you want to get all technical Porsche uses ZF's, NAG units built for Mercedes in some 911's, aka 722.6, A/Warner and ZF's. BMW uses zf's as well as share a trans with GM, 5L50 and 5L60. I'd hate to even start on CVT's built for Nisan by Jatco, btw, Jatco is a division of Nissan and that's why Nissan for the life of me won't give up on CVT's
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yeah, Jatco is now wholly owned by Nissan (which is controlled by Renault) yet a bunch of their stuff got Aisin transmissions... which is largely controlled by Toyota. :p

Those CVTs are garbage for sure. Especially in the Versas. We had a whole fleet give up on them, sued Nissan (and won) and got them ALL bought back. Security company.

Not long after that, Nissan extended the warranty on them, but when you have a company with 30 of the little turds running 24/7 and pile 100k miles on in a year's time, an extended warranty isn't going to help. Of course, when I told the fleet manager "You know, you CAN get these cars with manual transmissions" he looked at me like I had grown a third eye. :rolleyes:
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Speaking of dead automatics:



This showed up after I left the shop last night.... another dead Ford 4R70W! :rolleyes:
 

Brian's96TDIPASSAT

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2000
Location
Connecticut, USA
TDI
15 Golf TDI SEL 14 Passat SEL, bought back by VW 11 Golf TDI, bought back by VW 05 Passat TDI 96 Passat TDI, sold
Ford's transmissions are really expensive to build as well. 5r55s, trouble, 4r70 and 75, trouble. Now there using almost the same trans as GM is using in there fwd 6spds except for the controls. Ford was even using zf's in there expiditions and navigators a while back. As far as Nisan goes, everything they build now with the exception of the Titan which still uses a A/W and the 350Z which uses a A/W there all CVT's. There only extending warranty on 2010 and down for 10 yr or 120K on cvt's. They also have a program on A/W trans failure caused by coolant/trans fluid intermix in Frontier/Pathfinder due to rad failure. Between types of coolant, trans fluid and oil you need to keep on hand now to be a general repair shop you'll go broke in you inventory alone
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
GM and Ford codeveloped the transverse 6sp slushbox, that replaced the same 6sp Aisin box that they were both using in the same applications (Ford also had a CVT in some models... garbage). The main difference is the TCM on the GM version is inside next to the valve body, Ford has theirs remotely located.

They have also come together again on the new 10sp longitudinal units, but those are very new, and I do not know what all differences there are.

The sad thing about the 4R70W, which went away with the E-van, is that it is a design that came out in the '80s (the AOD). They added electronic controls (AOD-E) and eventually renamed all their slushboxes so it became the 4R70W (there is a 75 version, too). Problem is, while it was fine in a 1983 Crown Victoria, with its weazy 4.2L 2-barrel carb V8 that managed about 120hp, it is not so durable in a loaded 3/4 ton E-van with a 300hp 5.4L V8. And Ford didn't used to even use these in trucks, except for the little V8s in half-ton trucks (which is a car engine, anyway). The big truck inline 6, the bigger Windsor V8s and later the bigger Triton engines, as well as the diesels, all got a true truck transmission, the E4OD (later renamed 4R100W... which later spawned a 5 and 6 speed "Powertorq" setup still in use today). Ford cheaped out, and the customers have to pay. Keeps us busy.

Of course, GM did the same thing... reserved the big 4L80E for only the bigger trucks, but all the half tons got the 4L60, which is a junk transmission in a 115hp 2.2L S10.. a C/K1500 with a 5.7L V8 eats them regularly. Those REALLY used to keep us busy! But since Ford has displaced GM in the fleet sales so dramatically in the last decade or so, we do more of them now.

Do Transits, too... and those SUCK. :mad:
 

denismccar

Active member
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Location
Saint Louis
TDI
'05 B5.5 Passat Wagon GL TDI, '04 BEW Jetta TDI
Thanks all for the guidance and discussion. Learnt lots. Will set about changing ATF fluid and filter every 60k miles then and hope for some more longevity.
 

mgoff5000

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Location
Danville, CA
TDI
2000 Jetta, 2004 Passat (RIP)
At this point, they probably go on to a flatter place....
-J
Love it! Mine is about to go to the flat place. I've no idea why I tried the rebuild route. Must have been sleep-deprived. Lasted 16,000 miles. Factory unit or manual swap really only sane way to go.

Overall, I don't think the economics are there for either at this point though. I think one of these running with a reasonably new VW factory auto just sold for $3,500 on myturbodiesel. Getting the factory auto installed runs over $5,000.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Given the relatively low operating costs of my BHW Passat, the main expense being the gear drive upgrade, I'd say if at 200k miles its slushbox suddenly died and I decided to replace it with another, it would still be worth it to me. $5000 won't buy me a perfectly cared for one owner Passat, and I can't buy a new one... can't even buy anything close.

I'm hoping mine lasts for a while longer though. And if (when?) it does die, I will most certainly convert it to a manual.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
The 5 speed conversion with a stage 2 tune (even with the shorter gear v6 tranny) feels amazing. I opted for the fx300 clutch and 240mm 45lbs flywheel so while it's breaking in i look like a douche who can't drive a stick in my kids school line. It feels like a sports car. I can shift if pretty easily with boots on at 300 miles since install without chatter. With flip flops on I struggle a bit with 1st.

Im not sure if it's the tune or bsm delete but the car sounds louder at idle. Not rattle loud but exhaust louder.


Im with the crowd that 5 k wont buy you an equal car. This is negated if you cant do your own repair work imho.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
If the EGR is deleted, meaning, even if it is physically present but shut all the time via software, the engine will idle noisier.

It is a pretty distinct and obvious change in pitch after idle for a few minutes when the EGR normally shuts off.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
No doubt it's gone...it's sitting on my garage floor. Didn't realize it had any affect on the sound. Good to know. My coworker heard me pull in the other morning and said it sounded like a tank. Im not sure where this kid had heard tanks running but i took it as a compliment.
 

BlackBHW

Active member
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Location
Moyock nc
TDI
99.5 Jetta ALH. 05 B5.5 Passat
Yea all my friends think I’m insane and never quit telling me that I’ll never get the money back out of my Passat. It’s an 05 with leather and only has 116k miles! The belt was never changed so it’s getting rebuilt basically, BSM delete is completed and I have the head back from machine shop and colt cam on the way... trans was installed in 2010 so cant have but so many miles on it... I plan on keeping it a long time and it should pay for itself in 3-4 years in fuel cost alone vs my wife’s Tahoe and my suburban for family travel. Wish I could afford to have another car on insurance for work commute as my golf (86 1.6n/a or 99.5 Jetta ALH) would be better when traveling single... some people will never understand the tdi life!
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
No doubt it's gone...it's sitting on my garage floor. Didn't realize it had any affect on the sound. Good to know. My coworker heard me pull in the other morning and said it sounded like a tank. Im not sure where this kid had heard tanks running but i took it as a compliment.

A tank, eh? He's never heard many of them then, LOL. A BHW sounds nothing like that... even a diesel powered one. Gas turbine engines do not sound at all like anything with pistons. :p
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Maybe it's from the game tank wars? No idea. Without the egr it does sound more like a diesel than before.
 

afarfalla

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Location
sugar land tx
TDI
05 Passat sedan and 05 wagen
here is the problem

U can buy an 18 Passat, S,R,SE, for $18K to $22K, that states 36/25mpg, with the 2.0T engine. My 05 suffers from center console leprosy, saggy door cards that look my grandmothers arms when she picks her nose, checkered board oil spots up and down my drive, my fillings rattle at idle, electronic options equal to the 8 track era, a trunk lid only Arnold could open. I believe it will be an easy decision when the tranny goes, pancake time
 
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