NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

pknopp

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Because we have, for years (about 100), had cars and trucks that would run on just about anything that would combust. Diesel was originally working with peanut oil. George Washington Carver, amoung many other great things, was trying to develop a strain of peanut that produced greater yeild of oil for use in cars.
From what I've read, Europe largely doesn't have the problem with the crappy fuels which is funny as much of it comes from the U.S.
 

darrelld

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You have to ask yourself what type of company would knowingly not recall a defective part that could cause $8000 dollars worth of damage to the owners engine.

The answer is Lexus;

According to Bloomberg, Toyota has known about issues with valve springs in its V8 and V6 engines since 2007. The news confirms the information we received from an anonymous source within the company. Toyota says that the earliest complaints came from customers in Japan, but the company felt that the issue was fairly rare and didn't order a recall. Now that it has become clear that the issue isn't a fluke, the automaker has issued a recall in Japan and will notify the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration of the problem this week.

Toyota says that the defect is caused by the presence of contaminates within the spring material. The company has since addressed the problem by building the valve springs thicker than what was originally specified, and so far, the fix seems to be working.

Toyota says that around 270,000 vehicles are affected by the faulty springs, and of those, around 138,000 Lexus models are in the US.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/06/report-lexus-knew-of-valve-spring-defects-three-years-ago/

Try dropping a valve through the top of your piston and start totaling the costs of a Lexus engine.

I owned one of the defective ones.
 
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Niner

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Ski in NC

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If someone pulls a sample that flunks the astm spec for wear scar, that vendor is then open to some serious liability.

Fuel vendors will tighten up their quality pretty quick once the lawsuits start flying...

Still no excuse for hpfp spreading crap through critical components when it fails.
 

Claudio

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the question is if VW knew that the fuel was that crappy or not.
If they knew and they sold the pumps/cars anyway, they should be liable.

But if they did not know, and they made a pump based on what the fuel standard is supposed to be, then...
 

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!

HammerTDI

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I've been reading this whole thread from day one, part of the reason I bought a new Subaru.

Just for perspective, my new Subaru owner's manual has 2 pages of cautions about fuel quality, and specifically states that any fuel with octane boosting additives is forbidden and voids the warranty. It's not just VW USA struggling with fuel quality, seems like everyone's susceptible. Choose your poison.

Ford even went so far a while ago as to openly push owners to use only BP fuel in their Ford's I had a 2008 that had a BP logo RIGHT ON THE GAS CAP!
 

HammerTDI

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You have to ask yourself what type of company would knowingly not recall a defective part that could cause $8000 dollars worth of damage to the owners engine.

The answer is Lexus;

According to Bloomberg, Toyota has known about issues with valve springs in its V8 and V6 engines since 2007. The news confirms the information we received from an anonymous source within the company. Toyota says that the earliest complaints came from customers in Japan, but the company felt that the issue was fairly rare and didn't order a recall. Now that it has become clear that the issue isn't a fluke, the automaker has issued a recall in Japan and will notify the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration of the problem this week.

Toyota says that the defect is caused by the presence of contaminates within the spring material. The company has since addressed the problem by building the valve springs thicker than what was originally specified, and so far, the fix seems to be working.

Toyota says that around 270,000 vehicles are affected by the faulty springs, and of those, around 138,000 Lexus models are in the US.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/06/report-lexus-knew-of-valve-spring-defects-three-years-ago/

Try dropping a valve through the top of your piston and start totaling the costs of a Lexus engine.

I owned one of the defective ones.

I would say GM too with the Head Gaskets on the Northstar motor. I worked for a dealership that sold Cadillac and we had one technician that exclusively did head gaskets on the Northstar.
 

The_Mike

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I would say GM too with the Head Gaskets on the Northstar motor. I worked for a dealership that sold Cadillac and we had one technician that exclusively did head gaskets on the Northstar.
VW has a similar history on their W8s. Cam Adjuster failure is pretty much a game over. $5000, and is pretty much guaranteed to occur at some point 40-70k due to shoddy design work. I had hoped that they learned their lesson.
 

GTIDan

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I asked this before and it does not excuse VW for the poor design. Even with top quality fuel, it's a poor design.

But why are we acceptable of the poor quality of gas? For what we pay for it, it should always be consistent and of high quality.
You really don't know this. You/we have no idea how many failures were caused by gasoline. Is VW responsible for stupid people doing stupid things to their car? I think not.

Who says US fuel is of poor quality. California fuels are the most highly advanced cleanest burning stuff on the planet.

Even a worse case scenario shows a failure rate of perhaps 1 to 2 percent. Take out the fueling errors and what is it? Under 1 percent. Just how good does it have to be to satisfy you?

I have a Lexus (2006, IS250) that has had at least five TSB issued. From brakes to cam tensions being replaced. In spite of that Lexus still rates at or near the top of the JD Powers list of top quality cars.

It's a car. Stuff happens. Move on before you have stroke or something.
 

darrelld

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I have a Lexus (2006, IS250) that has had at least five TSB issued. From brakes to cam tensions being replaced. In spite of that Lexus still rates at or near the top of the JD Powers list of top quality cars.

It's a car. Stuff happens. Move on before you have stroke or something.
My Lexus was a 2006 IS350 and I had all your recalls plus, defective cams, defective valve springs, and a leaking high pressure fuel pump. Traded the Lexus for my VW and for the same amount of ownership time my Lexus was in the shop far more.
 
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The_Mike

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So my HPFP just failed while under dealer care for the intercooler kit - 14000 miles. They're fixing it this weekend.
The following novel was included with my paperwork. I figured that I would upload this to give everyone an idea of the troubleshooting process. I removed names and case numbers.

Malfunctioning High Pressure Fuel Pump. Client Uploaded videos of condition and shared videos with me. Car started up at dealer fine. Drove into shop, computer scan, no codes stored. Uploaded videos and computer scan to VTA. As per VTA consultant’s recommendations, removed intake pipe from airbox/grille, and placed in trunk under carpet, in stowage compartment. Previous repair order, updated intercooler kit was ordered, parts block, not here yet to install. Releasing car back to client.
Installed updated intercooler kit. Note: when removing charge air cooler discharge hose, I found a good amount of condensation, which poured out onto shop floor. Cleaned related hoses prior to reinstall as per technical bullet. After installation of new cooler components, ran car in shop for 10 minutes. Computer scan using self diag to quick check work performed, no codes. Roadtested, when driving out of shop on dealer’s driveway, car stalled abruptly. Would not restart. Towed back into bay using golf cart and tow strap. Inspected work performed for updated intercooler. No malfunctions detected why car would stall. Removed boost pipes, car will not start. Inspected for blockage in intake using borescope, none found. Tested operation of fuel pump appear ok. Inspected fuel filter, filter is full. Inspected high pressure pump for metal flake, none found, screen and bowl are clean. Contacted VTA, as per consultants recommendations, removed 4 glow plugs and inspect/check for fuel atomization. Removed 4 glow plugs, found to be dry. With aid of another technician, cranked car, no fuel came out of glow plug ports. Cracked fuel line to rail and found fuel spray. Tested fuel injectors for power and ground, noid light does not blink when car is cranking. Fuel pressure tested too low on fuel rail to turn on injectors. As per xxxx from VW, tested fuel tank pressure at pump, tested .47bar, tested ok. Tested fuel pressure at aux. pump under hood, tested 57psi/3.9bar, tested good. Tested fuel rail pressure read data block 1, fuel rail pressured tested 80bar. Because ecm needs to see minimum of 250 bar, the injection is not started by ecm. Removed fuel filter and inspected housing, appears very clean, no metal flake. Xxxx released high pressure fuel pump, and I ordered new bolts and fuel line for replacement of the high pressure pump. Replaced high pressure pump using new hardware and fuel feed line (this connects fuel pump to fuel rail). After replacement, purged fuel system using basic settings 35 three times. Car started up fine and test drove 1 mile. Car to be driven overnight. Roadtested overnight, total of 40 miles. Car drove very well. Computer scan in morning, no codes stored. Releasing car back to client.
Parts:

  • 1 03L-130-321 Pipe
  • 2 N-107-145-01 Screw
  • 3 N-911-8030-01 Bolt
  • 1 MSX1075 Material
  • 1 03L-130-851-AX Pump
So, it looks like my pump failed without completely self-destructing. They replaced it with a re manufactured unit for no cost to me at ~14000 miles.

So far, the car feels exactly as it did before.
 

GTIDan

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My Lexus was a 2006 IS350 and I had all your recalls plus, defective cams, defective valve springs, and a leaking high pressure fuel pump. Traded the Lexus for my VW and for the same amount of ownership time my Lexus was in the shop far more.
My Lexus has 32,503 miles and has had (I looked them up) five TSBs. Brakes (front and rear) Power steering, Transmission electronics, Throttle body and Cam chain tensioners, etc. Also new battery and master fuse box were replaced somewhere in this process.

My 2010 TDI has 30,605 miles and has had the driver's door latch assemply replaced.......................................................that's all folks.

Car is running perfectly. :)
 

Softrockrenegade

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You really don't know this. You/we have no idea how many failures were caused by gasoline. Is VW responsible for stupid people doing stupid things to their car? I think not.
Who says US fuel is of poor quality. California fuels are the most highly advanced cleanest burning stuff on the planet.
Even a worse case scenario shows a failure rate of perhaps 1 to 2 percent. Take out the fueling errors and what is it? Under 1 percent. Just how good does it have to be to satisfy you?
I have a Lexus (2006, IS250) that has had at least five TSB issued. From brakes to cam tensions being replaced. In spite of that Lexus still rates at or near the top of the JD Powers list of top quality cars.

It's a car. Stuff happens. Move on before you have stroke or something.

From a graph I saw on this site east coast fuels seemed to be the best and west coast were the worst . Where did this conception that California has the best fuel come from ?
 

pknopp

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You really don't know this. You/we have no idea how many failures were caused by gasoline. Is VW responsible for stupid people doing stupid things to their car? I think not.
No, but my remark is concerning the idea that the pump contaminates the entire system when they go bad. That is a poor design. Even under perfect conditions pumps will fail.

Who says US fuel is of poor quality. California fuels are the most highly advanced cleanest burning stuff on the planet.
Nearly all the tests say so.

Even a worse case scenario shows a failure rate of perhaps 1 to 2 percent. Take out the fueling errors and what is it? Under 1 percent. Just how good does it have to be to satisfy you?
You obviously have no clue what I've been argueing the last few months. Go back and start reading.

It's a car. Stuff happens. Move on before you have stroke or something.
Again, educate yourself before telling me how to act.
 

timwagon

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I have been reading these threads as fast as I can to get up to speed on this site. This one hits a little to close to home. I have a 2012 Golf TDI DSG base model. Built Nov 2011 and purchased mid Jan 2012. I currently have 6912 miles on it. I picked it up with 284 miles on it in a suburb of Youngstown Ohio and was a dealer trade driven in from Dayton Ohio. The MFI shows consumption2 47.8 and route2 3188 miles. I am very pleased. Majority of the time BP fuel. My commute is 112 miles round trip 6 to 7 days per week all on country roads no freeway. The past few weeks (a total of 4 times) my car sputtered while driving under slight acceleration before the engine was warmed up. The distance from the starting point was a 1/4 mile (3 times) and 7 miles (once). I hope this isn't a sign of things to come. I will be calling the dealer tomorrow. If this is the beginning of what I hope it isn't I will keep you guys informed for tracking.
If your TDI is experiencing a slight "hiccup" or momentary sputter when warming up, it's not the HPFP or the intercooler.

It's a feature.
 

truman

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Sorry if I'm playing dumb but what and why is this a feature? It's normal to have a sputter while warming up under cruise or light accel?
Feature is a fair statement, because it is a design flaw that you have to live with, unless you can get VW to install a retrofit to work around the issue.
 

pknopp

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Feature is a fair statement, because it is a design flaw that you have to live with, unless you can get VW to install a retrofit to work around the issue.
I disagree. That discussion will take us away from the discussion here though but you can read the link (most notably the last 2 months) in the link I provided a few posts back and take the discussion up from there if you wish.
 

tdiatlast

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The following novel was included with my paperwork. I figured that I would upload this to give everyone an idea of the troubleshooting process. I removed names and case numbers.



So, it looks like my pump failed without completely self-destructing. They replaced it with a re manufactured unit for no cost to me at ~14000 miles.

So far, the car feels exactly as it did before.
Really? That's the first time I've heard of a reman HPFP!
 

Niner

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Jun 3, 2011
There have been two different part numbers for a few months now. One for new and one for remanufactured hpfp.
This was noticed when a guy in BC Canada paid full pop for a new HPFP, and it had a remanufactured number stamped on the HPFP... in Bosch land, any part ending in an "X" signifies a remanufactured part.
 

Second Turbo

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Make the engineering staff run theirs on U.S fuel.

pknopp: > Whoever designed it should indeed be fired or regulated to the janitorial staff but as far as the failures go, it still seems the odds are incredibly small.

I heard that the
VW Director of Engineering for Fuel Systems and Seat Heaters
received a letter from his school, the
Institut für Technische Prätendenten und Schnellfraulein in St. Pauli.
They want their Diplom-Ingenieur back.
_______
It's not the failure or the odds,
it's the collateral damage,
out of warranty.
 

GTIDan

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No, but my remark is concerning the idea that the pump contaminates the entire system when they go bad. That is a poor design. Even under perfect conditions pumps will fail.



Nearly all the tests say so.



You obviously have no clue what I've been arguing the last few months. Go back and start reading.



Again, educate yourself before telling me how to act.
I could care less about what your arguing about. This whole subject has been argued to death. My money is on this: In the end the NHTSA will dismiss VW and move on. While some pumps gave up from what I've seen VW has stepped up to the plate and fixed the car/s.........even when they (and the customer) knew gasoline was put in the tank in many cases.

As for educating myself.........thanks for the advice. No harm intended here........just suggesting you give it a break before you faint or something. :D
 
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dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
pknopp: > Whoever designed it should indeed be fired or regulated to the janitorial staff but as far as the failures go, it still seems the odds are incredibly small.

I heard that the
VW Director of Engineering for Fuel Systems and Seat Heaters
received a letter from his school, the
Institut für Technische Prätendenten und Schnellfraulein in St. Pauli.
They want their Diplom-Ingenieur back.
_______
It's not the failure or the odds,
it's the collateral damage,
out of warranty.
You don't happen to have a video to back that up,do you?
 

Second Turbo

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If NHTSA punts

GTIDan: > My money is on this: In the end the NHTSA will dismiss VW and move on.

That's easily possible, but whatever the NHTSA outcome, the question is: how are the out-of-warranty customers protected against the "total scale" collateral damage?

If VW does nothing, the Class Action(s) will get some traction, which may not help the end users, but will certainly enrich the lawyers at VW's expense. TDI resale values will also tank.

We need a resolution, and that could be as simple as an optional extra-cost extended warranty on just the fuel system. It could also be a trap filter and periodic inspection. The risk needs to be reduced to timing belt levels (which can also cause massive collateral damage if neglected).

Our ALH needs replacing or major 01M work soon. We'd already have CR on order if the HPFP situation was resolved. Instead, alternatives #1 and 2 are a stick conversion or going to another brand. I'd encourage VOA to negotiate a settlement now, before their grand plans for US market dominance get crippled by festering self-inflicted HPFP wounds.
 

JeffOB

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2005 Passat TDI Wagon Failure

New transmission, 3xCV Boot replacement, 3 sets rear shocks, balance shaft, tie rods, sway bar, joints...$10,000 of repairs in the last 14 months with 167,000? I call this a complete and utter failure.
 
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