ALH doing funny stuff

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
2000 Jetta 5sp ALH, 285k.
My car has developed some odd behavior.
Here's my thread with it's (long-winded) story.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5275138#post5275138

So my current concern has four parts. I don't know how related they are.

1. It's still hard to start. I must disconnect the CTS (I've installed a CTS kill switch which I have to use almost every time, unless warm and driven within an hour or so) and give it 8-10 seconds of glow. Then it cranks for several seconds before roughly starting and stabilizing itself. Just a little white smoke, longer crank + more white smoke. and I know my starter is not happy.

2. I call it the "first stop stall". When I leave the house, the first stop I come to, less than 1 mile, it'll try to stall. White smoke, unstable idle, sputtering. I first thought that i wasn't taking it out of gear soon enough, but it does it when rolling in N also. If I smash the "gas" pedal I can save it from dying (puffs of white).
The conditions are: engine cold, within one mile after a medium pull for under 1 minute. If it dies, I can start it again without much problem.
The white smoke has me thinking it's the timing. Most of the time it runs smooth and strong. It'll idle or rev in the driveway all day.

3. Another concern, When cruising in gear and I let off the pedal to allow the engine to slow me down, when I get back on the pedal, the engine sputters and I get puffs of white smoke until I get the pedal almost to the floor, then it straightens out. It does it with cruise engaged or disengaged. I can press the clutch and rev match with no problem.

4. There is a miss that happens at exactly 2050 RPMs. If i hold the pedal there it stutters just a bit, consistently. Enough to feel it. I'd had other "misses" that were solved by replacing the vacuum lines and sealing the vacuum pump. VNT actuator seems to be functioning correctly.

I replaced the fuel filter and thermostatic T and did diesel purge, may have help a little but not much.
Other info, I replaced the Crank Sensor (no change)
I use Power Service at every fill up (same station, I'll try a different one next time). The check valve in the fuel sender in the tank is removed. ~45mpg. I do blow out the soot regularly.
I do have the CEL with a code for CTS (this is because of my switch), surprisingly I have no other ODB2 codes.
There's a little vibration at idle most of the time (sometimes it's VERY smooth). It is due for a timing belt.
Normally, I have good power and no smoke (unless I floor it). I check my fluids very frequently and all seems to be at normal consistent levels.
New battery, new crank sensor, new fuel filter, oil change coming up, new glow plugs, tank sender check valve removed, new EGR, ASV is working, "new" IP. new CTS (green four wire). Cleaned ECU ground, cleaned IP harness connection, original clutch (catch point is near the floor but shifts easy). Intake is not terribly dirty.
I have no VCDS, I'm in Ashland KY near Huntington WV if anyone would be willing to meet for a scan n' chat.
Any thoughts? It's the timing, isn't it. Could it drive well and just have these issues with the time out? I plan on changing the belt soon and have reviewed the procedure, thoroughly.
 

maxmoo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
Lakefield, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2000 golf, 2001 golf, 2000 beetle, 2003 wagon, 2004 golf, 2004 jetta, all diesels
I would start by making sure that the static timing is bang on and then check fine timing with vcds......sounds like your timing may be out.
When was the belt changed last and by whom?
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Why not connect the CTS back up? The car likes to know what the various temperatures are. If it does not start with stuff hooked up you want to start there.
If it will only start with extended glow in this weather something is wrong. Timing off. low compression, incorrect fueling, clear up that issue, the others will likely disappear.
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
I was thinking of doing a compression test, I'd need to get the stuff for it.
I will visually check the timing. The belt was changed sometime shortly after 200k by Moses VW (dealer in WV, I know, groan at dealer work) PO gave me receipts showing they'd been done on time since new. If I remember, the same tech worked on it a few times, not every time though (fyi ~$750). It's definitely due.
Most signs seem to point to timing.
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
Yes, Bob. I've been chasing the hard starting issue since purchase. The CTS is hooked up/switched on all the time except for starting. I only switch it off to start, then switch it back on. I have forgotten occasionally to switch it on but it doesn't seem to effect how it runs or any of my issues.
So, I get in the car, flip the switch (this disconnects the CTS wire that goes to the ECU) turn key to on, GP light is solid, count to 8 or 10, crank for a few seconds, it shakes, rumbles and starts with some white smoke. Sometimes runs rough for a few seconds then smooths out. Then I reset the switch that connects the CTS to the ECU.
 
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BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Yes I get it, I think whatever is keeping it from start is causing all the other.
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
I should also mention that I decided to try jump starting it once when I first got it and it fired right up. It has a new battery (first thing I did)
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
Thanks guys, I'll visually check the timing when I get a chance.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Didn't read the other thread...

IQ and timing. First low-hanging-fruit things to check. Sounds mostly like it's an IQ issue.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
I think your timing is retarded. You'll need a vcds to be able to read that. Set the timing above the center line and bump the IQ up to 4.4-6 and it should start almost instantly.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Checking the timing visually isn't enough. You need to use VCDS though an ALH is usually pretty close if the tools are used to set up the belt.
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
Thanks for the information. I sort of checked to make sure things were not completely out of whack. I know I need VCDS. I'll have to get a Windows laptop and cable also. For my car I'd need a HEX-CAN, correct? And the software. I'll also need the timing belt tools, I know the $200 sets are preferred but it's getting hard for me to justify the cost. I think I do plan on keeping the car if I can get it purring the way I think it should. I'm interested in doing the work myself and having the software would be handy in case I have other issues. But it might be cheaper to pay someone to change my timing belt and set everything up correctly.
During my check, I removed the TB cover. The belt looks pretty good, too good. It's still tight, the print is still legible. It does not look like it's been there for 80K. PO changed the Injection Pump, I'm thinking they may have just slapped a new belt on and eye-balled the timing.
(I don't have a 12pt 19mm to turn the crank by hand) I pulled the plug to see the flywheel and hooked up my USB boroscope ($10 on amazon, not the best but has been very handy). I aimed the camera at the sight hole, placed my phone on the windshield and watched as I pushed the car forward with it in 5th gear and applied the E-brake when the mark was dead center. On the IP, I could see the locking hole being just a bit off and an allen key would not fit ALL the way in. I did not observe the cam timing during this test. It was too freakin hot out to tear into it. I might as well get the timing tools and a computer.
Another observation. I still have the persistent miss at 2050 RPM. I also noticed a low sort of almost thud that seems to sync with what I think might be the speed of the cam. It's almost undetectable until I hold the revs at near 3000 RPM. At this speed, it's a definite thump-thump-thump-thump and we get distinct puffs of dark smoke in time with the sound (car normally has little to no smoke). This makes me think the cam is out of time and/or worn. I'll pull the valve cover and inspect. I'll probably put in a new cam and sprocket with the TB anyway. We've got 285k or so on it.
I just wanted to share my methods and observations. I'll try to get some pictured and maybe video once it cools down a bit.
 

maxmoo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
Lakefield, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2000 golf, 2001 golf, 2000 beetle, 2003 wagon, 2004 golf, 2004 jetta, all diesels
I would start by making sure that the static timing is bang on and then check fine timing with vcds......sounds like your timing may be out.
When was the belt changed last and by whom?
And based on your latest post.....a compression test should be done after the timing is confirmed correct.
If I were you I would find a local tdi Guru....shouldn't cost all that much to do and he may teach you a few things.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
While waiting on VCDS (or a guru) I'd look to unplug your MAF and see what happens: if it's a bad MAF the engine should smooth out, though be gutless.

You replaced the EGR valve. Why? Did you see any buildup in the intake? Wondering if some carbon could have been kicked loose and ingested.
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
The EGR was replaced by the dealer under the previous owner. At one point I removed and cleaned it. The intake was not terribly clogged (2-3mm), so I left it alone. I'll try unplugging the MAF. When I bought the car it there was another MAF in the trunk still in the plastic so I installed that one. I don't think it changed anything at the time. Maybe I'll also try the old one.
I should mention that the car runs MUCH better than it did when I first got it. It had low power and missing under load. My biggest gain was from replacing the vacuum hoses and sealing the vacuum pump.
I'll get this thing straightened out. I'm debating and considering costs. I could use some advice on VCDS purchases, I'll read the threads and maybe post a want ad.
I know there is a guru in Lexington KY, 2 hours from my location, but I think he is on hiatus and I'm sure he'll have a backlog of TDIs to take care of. Also, the map shows a shop in Athens OH, I could check with them. Still 2 hours.
and thanks guys.
 
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Mikmc

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Location
Sanford, NC
TDI
2002 Jetta
I just got the HEX version of the VCDS a week ago. I have a '02 Jetta. I'm not a computer geek but the instructions to do a basic engine scan are very intuitive. I found a #2 glow plug fault and EGR excessive flow fault, ordered all new engine vacuum tubing and the 3 control solenoids on the firewall and installed them and replaced all glow plugs then cleared the faults. So far no engine check light has lit and it's running great. My take on it now is that I don't know how I've owned this car for 8 years (169k miles)with no VCDS. If you plan on getting one the website answers a lot of questions. I got the HEX (novice). Money well spent. I gave this car to my Daughter and she tried to register it in CA. with a check engine light lit. She took it in for a repair estimate and they quoted $3500 to replace the turbo. I rented a dolly and towed it back to NC. So far $450 invested for parts, Bentley manual, and VCDS. If I get more engine check lights I'll proceed in cleaning the intake, exhaust, egr, system because I plan on keeping it. My Daughter wants a mini van and I'm thinking that I shouldn't have given it to her in the first place. It's a money pit if ya don't do the work yourself and rely on a shop to be honest. The VCDS is a game changer. Good luck.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I was, and still am, in a similar situation. Daughter has an 03 wagon (and lives a ways away, though a little less than 2 hrs). After about a year of getting caught up on maintenance (TB, brakes and suspension) it's starting to stabilize. She has an Ultragauge in it, so the instructions are to notify me ASAP when any code pops up.

The real "trick" with these cars is to get them into proper working order and then keep on top of regular maintenance. If you do this then they're going to be pretty reliable.
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
Thanks again for all the advice. I believe I'll be ordering the HEX-V2 from the Ross-Tech Site. As I understand it, the $200 version allows one to use it on three vehicles. An upgrade allows up to 10 cars. I regret that I won't be able to help others in my area but that's how it is. If I eventually sell the car the cable can go with it, or we'll shop for other VWs.
I'll report back later
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
Got VCDS!

I've done a few things since my last post so let me get you all up to speed.
New Crank Sensor (no change)
New fuel filter and diesel purge (very slight improvement)
Cleaned injectors. I did not disassemble. I soaked the tips overnight in leftover diesel purge. New copper washers and fuel return lines (very slight improvement)
Reseated IP case pressure relief valve. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=238872
Mine looked like the middle one in the picture in that post. It took forever to prime the system but it ran a lot smoother. I'd be happy but now it takes even longer to start.
Also, my serpentine belt tensioner is jumping a bit.


I just now recieved my Hex V2 from Ross-Tech. I did an auto scan and it came back with my normal faults, CTS and glow plug. Plus it revealed a
heated mirror code
00943 - Heated Exterior Mirror; Driver Side (Z4)
35-00 - -
and an airbag code 00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent


I went to check the timing before the engine was warm and it quit when I entered basic settings. So I let it warm up. It gets rough and smokey when I enter basic settings, I understand that it's normal for the engine to change while in basic.
At the correct engine temp, the graph showed the timing to be just below the blue center line but it would jump up off the chart. The bottom of the chart would fluctuate between saying "timing too advanced to be charted" and "within spec, slightly retarded".


I also explored some other readings but I'm still learning how to record and plot this kind of thing. I looked at the duty cycle of the advanced start solenoid and it was in the 70% area, IIRC. I looked at a lot of things and thought I was logging and saving but...
I haven't messed with anything yet. I wanted your opinions first.


guidance, please and thank you.
 
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djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
Thank the good lord!
I bumped the IP timing forward just a mm and she fired right up. Wow! I did some tweaking to try and get the timing in the correct spot on the graph. The graph still wants to jump around but for the most part I'm between the middle and top line.

Just took a quick spin around the block a few time and what a pleasure. VCDS should have been my first purchase. It would have probably saved me money and down time on the car and a lot of aggravation and anxiety.

Still a few things though..
My idle remains a little rough. It's smooth when I first start the car then after 15 seconds or so it gets a little rough. Not quite as bad as before. I noticed on the timing graph sometimes it would say "fuel temp too hot". It was steady in the measuring blocks. Might try to replace it eventually.
Also, some of the readings may warrant investigation. Requested boost vs actual, maybe a few other things. Once I get better with the software I'll learn a lot more.
And I'd like to figure out that air bag fault (safety). Might get around to that skanky headliner one of these days.

I'm thrilled that she fires right up.
I think the pump sprocket still has the stretch bolts so I'm going to get some new ones. I have a feeling they've been trying to slip.
 
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UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
VCDS will go a LONG way toward helping you settle this thing down. I'd make sure that your fuel filter is OK (and the thermo-T - watch for air bubbles in the clear fuel line to the IP, if air is coming in it'll show up after the car has been sitting for a while.

Check your IQ. I'd also recommend doing a "Diesel Purge" (do a search). Getting some runtime with changes you've made or are making will exercise things a bit and could possible work out some kinks.

If you go to MaloneTuning.com you will find a procedure for doing performance logging. I highly recommend doing logging to fully assess how the engine is operating. (you might find that your MAF is in need of replacement- a failing MAF can substantially affect performance- replacement is easy and fairly cheap).
 

djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
Thanks for the reply UhOh.
It's got a new Mann fuel filter and new T. I don't really have any bubbles in the clear line. I run diesel purge with every new filter. Also, new MAF.
I'll check that site. The previous owner said it had a chip tune but I don't know what kind. Is there any way to find out?
IQ read within spec.

tip: The Ross-Tech interface is definitely worth it. Go ahead and buy one before throwing parts at it (I should have heeded this forum's advice). My thoughts early on were that "I could try this $20 sensor and if it fixes it I've saved $180." NO. I would have saved money buying the expensive device just to learn that all I had to do was bump the timing a bit. Although, I do have a bunch of new stuff and presumable good old spares. I'll put together a spare parts kit and stuff it in with the spare tire.
These forums are invaluable.
Thank you all.
 

Terrific-In-Tahoma

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Location
East-of-Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TDI
'01 ALH Jetta M5 / 05 BEW Jetta Wagon A4
Hope you get the engine settled.

One part that has been subject to a recall (of sorts) is the Idler Pully, and the associated spring mechanism.

There is a metal tab that is bent at a 90 degree angle , that keeps the tension from the internal(external?) spring pressing against the arm of the assembly where the Idler Pully is running against.

Hard to expalin in words.

Anyway , mine was on the verge of failing completely one day, when I did a fast downshift and jumped down 2 gears instead of 1.

Well, the RPMs went way up, to match the speed travelled, but the transition from barely above idle (middle of shifting) to redline (4200) was too much for this Idler Arm tab.

It sheared apart, but only half way.

It was enogh to cause the timing belt to skip 1 tooth backwards, and throw the entire timing out by 5 degrees or so.

When I got the car to a trained GURU, he was able to replace the Timing Belt Itler Tension Pully and re-set the primaary timing.

The tab had by now completely sheared away, and it was visible that the length of duration that its life had ended.

Not knowing much about TDIs at the time (for me it was 50,000 kms (31,000 miles)] ago, I did not know when its most recent timing belt was changed.

Based on the vintage (260,000 kms) and the interval being 100,000 kms, my guess was it was 60,000 kms overdue for the TB to be changed.

So, a TB, Water Pump, Idler Tension Pulley, and two other pulley bearings were changed out in short order.


So, long story, but short answer to your post, all things condidered, it is possible that the TB Idler Pulley, is marginally failing, and that is one possible (of many) resons for the erratic operation of the timing with the VCDS display.
 
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djembeing

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Location
KY
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDi
thanks for the tip Tahoma.
I've inspected the timing belt area. The tensionor tab is in the correct place. My belt was last done at 206k, currently at 285k. However, the previous owner replaced the IP and it looks like he used a new belt.
Since you mention tensioners, the serpentine belt tensionor is sort of floppy. May be a cause or effect, don't know. Either way I'll do both belts and replace all idlers ect as soon as I get scrape some more cash together.
The vibration at idle is acceptable. I may be splitting hairs over it. Might try to make a video if it continues to concern me. I've got some new IP sprocket bolts on the way (current ones are stretch bolts), then I'll give it a good hard Italian tune and see where we are.

I'd consider this thread closed since the timing adjustment seems to have solved the problems. Though, I still welcome any advice.
 
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