Minnesota drafts bill to MANDATE bio-diesel

Brian Gracek

Member
Joined
May 4, 2001
Location
Richfield, MN
I heard last night on the news that a bill has been drafted by a State Republican Representative (state legislature) to mandate a bio-diesel blend fuel (Jet and Diesel) for Minnesota.


[editorialising]
As a libertarian I can't abide this.


As a Chemist I think the push is cool.

[/editorialising]
 
M

mickey

Guest
Good for MN! Without these kind of "government mandates" people would wallow in their own crapulence until they drown in it. We'd have no seat belts, no emission controls of any kind, tetraethyl lead poisoning our kids...in fact, we'd probably all be dead by now. "The Gubmint" does some pretty stupid things, but The Gubmint also does SMART things that people, individually, would never be smart enough to do.

-mickey
 

msaeger

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2001
Location
Minnetonka, MN
I agree with brian

I would like to be able to purchase biodiesel but I do not want the government to require me to (the government can do no right)

I am in minneapolis and have been hearing about this too
 

spoilsport

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 3, 1999
Location
Houston TX
TDI
2000 Golf GLS Silver (Sold). 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon Tiptronic (daughter's)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by msaeger:
I agree with brian

I would like to be able to purchase biodiesel but I do not want the government to require me to (the government can do no right)
I am in minneapolis and have been hearing about this too
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mistrust all this government mistrust bs. You pay your taxes, you get roads to drive on and armies to defend you. Sounds OK by me!
 

msaeger

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2001
Location
Minnetonka, MN
it has nothing to do with mistrust it more that they spend ungodly amounts of money to do crap

like build a lightrail line to a place that already has bus service that is faster than the train will be

plus paying 1/3 of my income in income taxes alone is ridiculous (not including sales tax, tax on gas, lisence tabs, extra sales tax where I live to pay for some stupid stadium that is paid for)

where will it end when they keep all the money and provide everything for us
 

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
Hmmm, W. says we are in an energy crisis and we need to drill our way out of it. Geezz, that should help us out about ten years from now. We have a depressed grain market and are paying farmers not to grow crops. We can make fuel from biomass, do it right now and use it as an additive to suppliment the petroleum we are lacking. This additive biodiesel also adds lubricity to the fuel that we are going to take the sulfur out of.

Minnesota gets it, if only W. had a brain or the balls to tell his oil buddies that the country`s welfare is more important than them. I`m not waiting for the US government to do much good here, it`s up to the states and individuals. Bravo Jesse!
 

Brian Gracek

Member
Joined
May 4, 2001
Location
Richfield, MN
RC,

Back off GW. Why? Because the press has already made up their mind on how they will cover him from an enviornmental standpoint. Want proof? Just this week President G.W. Bush ordered the EPA to go forward with a project to mandate low sulfur diesel fuel in the USA. Why was this not widely reported? Simple, the greens don't want a to be out greened by (gasp) a Republican!
 

Dante

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2000
Location
Pacific Northwest
TDI
Silver 2000 Golf GLS TDI
There are a lot of Soybean farmers in Minnesota. Minnesota is mandating biodiesel for the same reason all the diesel fuel sold in France is 5% biodiesel. It beats paying Farmers not to grow anything
 
M

mickey

Guest
GW has done nothing to advance environmental causes. The fact that he chose not to STOP a program that was already in place is not exactly a ringing endorsement. He's already stopped plenty of others. And he's done nothing NEW.

-mickey
 

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
Brian,
Geo. W. Bush has decided that he wants to preside over this wonderful country of ours, which makes him fair game. This man simply has no understanding of the real world and how if functions nor does he care to know. My comments were not in the environmental realm but one of common sense and good energy policy. He is a moron by presidential standards and I and others will continue to call it as we see it.
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Aug 15, 1998
Location
Whittier,CA-USA
TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
Hello RC, I hope you are not one of those liberals who thinks Clinton was an ethical guy!
 

BongoBrains

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2000
Location
Fife Lake, Michigan
TDI
01' Golf GLS Silver/Blk
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harvieux:
Hello RC, I hope you are not one of those liberals who thinks Clinton was an ethical guy!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harvieux,
Why would you hope RC is not, "...one of those liberals who thinks Clinton was an ethical guy"??? Do you have an opinion about Biodiesel that you'd like to share, or are you looking for a platform to promote your personal politics? I'll be watching 'G-Dub' right along with the rest of the country. You can go ahead and cast your votes however you choose. I'll likely be casting my vote for a Prez. that is more willing to dig a trench in a field to plant seeds for Biomass, than digging trenches in the sand of the Middle East during the next Oil War.
 

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harvieux:
Hello RC, I hope you are not one of those liberals who thinks Clinton was an ethical guy!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harvieux,
I don`t consider myself a liberal, or anything else in a pigeon hole. IMHO Clinton`s ethics are in the tiolet, he was a national embarrassment the way he acted in private, or at least what he thought was private.

President Simpleton is yet another embarrassment of a different variety and there are many millions of people who share this sentiment even now. Give this baffoon a couple more months and more situations to screw up and watch the people`s dislike for him slowly climb.

Sorry for the politics but politics has everything to do with good energy policy and that is the subject of this thread. Good energy policy can`t ignor any of the solutions but the team from Texas (Oh yeh sorry, that other guy is supposed to be from Wyoming) is focussing only on supplying more of their buddy`s petropoop and the big $ to be made from the inherent dangers of nuclear energy. These guys are still living in the twentieth century and want to keep us all there with them. Conservation, renewable biomass, solar, wind, and hydrogen are what we are going to be using, petroleum is on the way out. Let`s get on with it.


BTW Harvieux, your red vinyl got mailed yesterday, hope it works out for you.
 

cars wanted

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 1999
Location
Rockville, Maryland U.S.A.
TDI
Golf GLS-TDI, 2000, white/beige
"Just this week President G.W. Bush ordered
the EPA to go forward with a project to mandate low sulfur diesel fuel in the USA. Why was this not widely reported? "
Simple, this approval came from Christine Whitman of the EPA a month or 2 ago, and that WAS widely reported.
"I would like to be able to purchase biodiesel but I do not want the government to require me to (the government can do no right)"
True enough, but if the government didn't require it, how would you be able to buy it? It's not as if the "free market" is falling over itself to provide us with this option, or anything like that.

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: cars wanted ]
 
M

mickey

Guest
Today, Dubya responded to reports of skyrocketing fuel prices, saying he is "concerned" but that it is important to avoid "quick fixes".

You mean like drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Preserve?


His boss, Dick Cheney, is due to present Dubya with the administration's official "energy policy" next week, which will include Increased Oil Production at the top of the list of solutions to this so-called "crisis." They did throw in "conservation" somewhere, but you can be sure that siphoning out our nation's last major oil reserve in order to turn a quick profit will be the only thing they'll actually push for in any meaningful way.

Personally, I consider Dubya to be less "moral" than Clinton. Dubya is a hypocrite on the abortion issue. He's a military hawk who used his daddy's influence to dodge Vietnam. He's a drunk and a coke nose who doesn't have the guts to even say "I didn't inhale." (Which would sound silly in reference to cocaine, wouldn't it!)

Not everybody who thinks Dubya has the brains of a house plant is a "liberal" nor do we think Clinton was "moral." It's not an either/or question. I don't think much of either of them, but Clinton better represented my ideas than Dubya...at least when he was actually being a President and not getting hummers under his desk.

-mickey
 

Brian Gracek

Member
Joined
May 4, 2001
Location
Richfield, MN
OK, OK. I hoped to start some debate but not political titt-for-tatt!

Anyway, often the free market takes too long to be truely effective (hell it was the free market that killed the better video format...beta) and government can help push new and good ideas (within limits). That said, I'm enthusiastic about bio-diesel.

I am, however, not enthusiastic about mandates. I do, however, see a good stratagy being a compromise. Allow tax incentives to individuals who use bio-diesel (exempt bio-diesel from Federal Highway Taxes for example). In addition, I can support an EPA and other federal/state agency's advertising the benefits of bio-diesel in PSAs or Paid Ads. And lastly, I can support (with sunset legislation) a Subsidy for bio-diesel to keep it cost comptetitive until infrastructure and demand are created.

The big hump here is initial investment in "infrastructure" (followed by the fact that bio-diesel is more expensive than petro-diesel). Oil companys don't want to spend money on setting up plants to convert bio-mass into fuel and then to turn around cut into 20% of their own diesel market. Plus, it isn't fair to consumers to burden them with a mandate that helps the farm lobby at the expense of another group.

In addition, since bio-diesel costs more at this time the cost is a burden on all end users ( all of US who have trash hauled away or take trips on airplanes or who get goods shipped by air, rail and truck).

There are no easy answers here. But the advantages of bio-diesel in terms of perfomance (i.e. CO2 recycling, cleaner burning, better engine performance) are clear. Costs and who bears them, however, is a big issue. Government can have a role in enticing demand and keeping costs down, but the role must be limited to be fair.

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Gracek ]
 

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
Originally posted by Brian Gracek:
[QB]
Costs (of biodiesel as an additive) and who bears them, however, is a big issue.

Brian,
The real issue is who is going to burden the true costs for the industrialized world`s orgy with the Devil`s Tea for the last 70 years or so? There is a huge bill due for our deadly experiment and the payment is something most people can`t even imagine as of yet. This is going to be one of the biggest issues mankind has faced since we came down from the trees. It sure will be interesting to live through it.
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Aug 15, 1998
Location
Whittier,CA-USA
TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
Hello Gentleman, Sorry if I was a little harsh on RC, but to beat up GW so severely when it's only been a 100 days or so is ludicrous. Let's give him a chance! I don't hear any of you *****in at Clinton who by the way had 8 years to do something in this area and two of those eight years he had the majority in congress. As a matter of fact Clinton had the most lame first 100 days since they started tracking back in the FDR days. Bottom line is that I am a big fan of biodiesel and states like MN should be commended. I am completely shocked that CA didn't go for this first. For some reason they are into the CNG arena which is really starting to prove cost ineffective and possibly environmentally damaging in it's own right. I believe the govt should stay out of this biodiesel push and let the states do their thing. It will take time but it will happen. My goal is for eventually having the best of both worlds in with low sulpher diesel of 80% along with the lubricity power and environmental +'s of 20% biodiesel. Maybe, just maybe we might start getting some European high power TDI's. Let's not get at each others throat on these political issues. I truly apologize to RC and all for my inappropriate earlier comment. Later!
 

GANZGUT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2001
Location
Montana
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Gracek:
The big hump here is initial investment in "infrastructure" (followed by the fact that bio-diesel is more expensive than petro-diesel). Oil companys don't want to spend money on setting up plants to convert bio-mass into fuel and then to turn around cut into 20% of their own diesel market. . .Costs and who bears them, however, is a big issue. Government can have a role in enticing demand and keeping costs down, but the role must be limited to be fair.

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Gracek ]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian:

If you'll allow a fellow Minnesotan to chime in on the biodiesel mandate, sans politics. . .

I believe one of the problems discussed with the recent Minnesota biodiesel mandate is that there is no way that the refiners could implement such a mandate within the timeline drafted by the legislature (i.e. refiners cannot insure that diesel fuel sold in minnesota have 5% biodiesel minumum content by 2002). This is somewhat similar to the state of California mandating that 2-3% (???) of all cars sold there by a manufacturer be alternately fueled (i.e. electric- try to sell that one now- Laugh!).

I'm really excited at the propects of biodiesel. Like ethanol, I believe it will be good for farmers and the environment. Like you, I'm concerned that Stalinesque "top-down" mandates are not the answer when the producers of the mandated product are not consulted as to the "implementation deadlines."
 

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
Originally posted by Harvieux:
[QB]Hello Gentleman, Sorry if I was a little harsh on RC, but to beat up GW so severely when it's only been a 100 days or so is ludicrous. Let's give him a chance! I don't hear any of you *****in at Clinton who by the way had 8 years to do something in this area and two of those eight years he had the majority in congress.

Harvieux,
Thanks my friend, but I don`t think you were harsh on me above. I`ve got thick skin so I did`nt recognize any harshness in your post and I believed you were a good guy to begin with, just questioning were I am coming from politically.

And I agree with you that Clinton and Gore attemped to do absolutely nothing about our energy situation in the eight years they had the chance but do you actually believe that the republican congress they fought with for six years, who where controlled by the oil industry, would have allowed any reason to go forth on energy policy? I`ll bet you my life nothing would have happened with asses like Newt G., Tom Delay and Trent Lott in charge of the monkey cage.

As for giving Dubya a chance, I`m sorry but I would`nt give a six year old the chance with the keys or a gun, I know from the start that he is just not capable of being responsible with the power. President Petropoop`s credentials as governor and as a businessman precede him to the white house and anyone who has paid attention can easily understand what this man stands for and where his alliegence lies.

His and Cheney`s world view are diametrically opposed to mine and I see them as enemies of evolution and of living sustainably on this fragile planet. They are anchors to the past follies of mankind and a danger to all life on earth. I know that sounds harsh and radical but I must be honest with you about why I treat them with such distain. Believe me I wish I did`nt feel this way but I firmly do, and believe me there are many millions of others who share my sentiments. They, as the rulers of the industialized world, hold the life of all creation in their hands for the next four years (eeeekk, what a frightening thought!) and as such are open for honest
critisism.

They will do nothing for the people or the planet as far as energy goes, but for the interests that put them there and made them their wealth. Biodiesel does`nt fit into their plan, even as an additive in a the form of B20. How can they talk about (and even create) an "energy crisis" and not consider all the options? Because there are huge $ to be made their way for their friends. That is what it is all about for these two scoundrals.
 
Top