How are the Mercedes Diesels????

Damien

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2000
Location
New York
I lived in Europe for about 8 months. When I was in Italy, Germany and Denmark I noticed that ALL the cabs in those countries were Mercedes Diesel. I noticed in one of the cabs I was in had over 400,000 miles on it. I was amazed to say the least. Now I realized that a cab drives all city miles for the most part which is the hardest driving on the cars engine. How is the TDI's engine fair to that of the quality of a Mercedes Diesel?? Are the Mercedes Diesel's considered the best kind of diesel's?
If it is even close I drive mostly highway miles I should get at least 400,000 miles on my TDI since I know I will do nothing but baby it
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
In my opinion the TDI is a bit ahead of the Mercedes Diesels. When you take into account the TDI Pump Deuse this is perhaps the most advanced diesel on the planet. I consider it to be a generation ahead of the Common Rail system other manufacturers are still trying to get to work. VW already has this sytem in production in the V6 TDI 2.5 and I believe the 3.3 Audi.

Your 1.9 TDI will be an extremely reliable long lived engine, probably longer than you will care to own it. Heck it may even out last the next owner as well
.

All kidding aside the design is sound and simple. I would not be suprised to hear of somebody getting a million miles out of one.

DB
 

JimHenry

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2000
Location
Santa Teresa, NM USA
Damien,
I have a friend who has a Mercedes 300D, which has the 5-cylinder diesel engine. He has over 300K miles, and it's still going strong. He's the reason for my investigation of a VW Diesel purchase!

I have another friend who had a VW Golf Diesel back in the early 80's. He sold it when it had 275K miles- and it was no TDI.

Good luck!
 

DSLPWR

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 1999
Location
United States of America
A Mercedes diesel might be a shade ahead of the VW in terms of built quality, but VW has the edge on technology.

I believe Mercedes to have a different focus than VW in this regard.

The greater difference between Mercedes diesels and VW diesels will be found outside engine compartment.

Personal view: between a brand new VW Golf GLS TDI or the equivalent price towards a used Mercedes diesel, I would search the used car pages first. If I couldn't find anything, I'd shrug my shoulders, hit the VW dealership and smile on my way home in a new Golf.

DSLPWR
 

Powder Hound

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 25, 1999
Location
Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
TDI
'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
You can argue about Pumpe Duse vs. common rail all you want. Thing is, they are both using Bosch developed and manufactured systems. Ha!

------------------
Always interested in steep & deep.
Ski resorts closed! Break out the cameras and fly rod ...
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
I don't dare dispute the reliability of Bosch, heck I won't own a car unless Bosch controls the engine and fuel system.

My father owns a MB 300D 5 cylinder. I love the car and you can't beat the hulk of a car the engine pulls around.

I will say the IDI MB diesel does run hot on those warm day's. It took my father awhile to get used to seeing the temperature fluctuations on the coolant guage.

After owning a TDI there is no disputing the fact the direct injection is better at reducing the heat tranfered to the cooling system.

I guess if you are on a budget the best thing is to look for the used MB, but if you can spare the extra every month the new TDI is the way to go for the long term owner.

DB
 

jayb79

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 20, 2000
Location
Exeter,NH
I have had three diesels w/over 300k.
84 Jetta turbo d 301 k when i sold it. still ran good.
83 Mercedes 240d w/302k when sold. Had to be plugged in if it was below 40F.
84 300d 347k, just swaped motor from my parts 300 w/ only 180k(like new) because i didn't when to change the timing chain.
All have been super dependable.

[This message has been edited by jayb79 (edited August 17, 2000).]
 

RES

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 1999
Location
TRUMBULL,CT. USA
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI, 1997 Passat (Totaled in Accident) 2010 Jetta Sportwagon TDI
One differance between the Mercedes Diesel and the VW is the timing method. The Mercedes is chain driven while the VW uses a rubber timing belt. I don't know how long the chains last. Is 350K miles typical?
 

SteveM

Active member
Joined
Aug 13, 2000
Location
Dutchess County,NY
Up until about two months ago I worked for Mercedes Benz Credit Corp in Norwalk, Ct. I would still be there if it wasn't for the merger with Crappler I mean Chrysler but my job reloacted to Detroit and I didn't choose to move.

We were not MBUSA but part of Daimler Benz. We financed the MB cars and Freightliner Trucks (they are owned by Daimler).

Most of the employees had company leases (I had a 97 C230 for $140 a month including repairs and insurance, 20,00 miles a year).

There were one or two E300 diesels but most were gas powered. Mercedes' are built like tanks. They are solid and are a wonderful autobahn cruisers. My C230 only had a four cylinder but the car would cruise at 80-90mph all day long in peace and quiet.

As a matter of fact we saw an article that the Crappler engineers couldn't believe how much a drivers/passenger seat cost the guys at Mercedes. They even had the ba##s to confront them on the cost. The Mercedes engineers decided to take a closer look at a Chrysler seat form a Chrysler 300M. They took one apart and almost died of laughter when they saw the poor quality of the Chrysler seats.

So to make a long story short (too late for that I guess) you get what you pay for. I have owned two VW's and am on the fence about getting a TDI. You cannot compare the quality or the engineering of a VW vs. Benz.
By the way I would love to see MB go down the tubes as I feel myself and the other 300 people at MBCC were sold down the river by the Germans (no I'm not bitter) but MB does make a VERY good car (at least for now).

Steve M.
 

BIGJOHNO

Veteran Member
Joined
May 2, 1999
Location
Frozen Tundra
TDI
2010 Golf (Black) mine; 2011 Golf (UGM) hers
Didn't VW make the MB diesels
(engines) at one point? I remember my dad saying that at one point.

John
 

jmclain

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2000
Location
Mansfield, TX USA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SteveM:
Most of the employees had company leases (I had a 97 C230 for $140 a month including repairs and insurance, 20,00 miles a year).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!!
That's a sweet deal! No wonder your pissed about losing that job!

I wonder if Mercedes needs any mainframe programmers....
 

think diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2000
Location
Northern Virginia
As was said... you get what you pay for. Naturally a $52,000 Mercedes E class diesel is going to have better build quality than a $19,000 Volkswagen TDI.

That said-- given the choice between a new TDI and a used Mercedes--- I'd choose the Volkswagen. Why? Well for one, as nice as Mercedes are-- the IDI diesels they sold in this country for the most part are slow, stinky, cranky in cold weather and have lackluster MPG. They are beautiful cars-- but not what I am looking for. My tastes are a bit more pedestrian (5 speed, roll-down windows, NO leather) and I would take a high tech TDI that hauls ass, starts in -15F weather without a hitch and still gets 49 mpg-- over an underperforming luxury boat anyday.

Now... bring a taxi-spec Mercedes C-class with vinyl interior and a 5-speed and the CDI common-rail direct injection motor--- AND sell it for under $30,000 and I might be very interested...


------------------
'99 New Jetta GL TDI
"May the torque be with you."
 

CFriedriszik

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 9, 1999
Location
Landau, Germany
TDI
See signature
BIGJOHNO,
maybe your dad mixed something up here:
a) The V-Class Van has the VR6 engine of VW
b) Auto Union was owned by M-B for a short period during the 60s and the famous "Mitteldruckmotoren" are developed ( at least the basic technics) by M-B ( http://www.grex.de/acdm/ ) engineers
c) The VW LT Transporter is based on the M-B Sprinter now. Engines are VW, though.
 

RES

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 1999
Location
TRUMBULL,CT. USA
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI, 1997 Passat (Totaled in Accident) 2010 Jetta Sportwagon TDI
What is a mitteldruckmotoren? The Audi that is shown in the website looks like an old Audi 100 which as I remember had a 4 cylinder pushrod engine. The people that I knew that had them had nothing but trouble with them.
 

SteveM

Active member
Joined
Aug 13, 2000
Location
Dutchess County,NY
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jmclain:
WOW!!
That's a sweet deal! No wonder your pissed about losing that job!

I wonder if Mercedes needs any mainframe programmers....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny you should mention that. I was a Mainframe Programmer for MBCC. Not only did you get a company car but 3 weeks vacation (to start) unlimited sick time, bonus up to 20% of salary, free soda, coffee, MB shirts etc. It was a FANTASTIC place to work.

SteveM.
 

BKmetz

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Staff member
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Location
Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
Comparing a VW TDI to a MB diesel is not going to work. Different cars for different markets. If you can afford a MB you can afford the fuel to run it, period. Nobody buys a MB diesel to get 50 MPG. MB's idea of economy is to build a car that will have a real usable lifespan of 20 years or more. With MB you buy longevity. Also, in North America we can't compare MB's new CDI technology against VW's TDI or PD technology yet.

I will compare VW's old IDI diesels with my MB IDI diesel. The MB IDI diesels are superior to every other IDI diesel in every way. Nobody built an IDI diesel as well as MB, not VW, not Pugeuot, not Renault, nobody. MB simply over built those engines and then undertuned them. The engines last because they are understressed. MB always built the cleanest running IDI diesels too.

MB builds heavy luxury cars so the engines are scaled up to handle the weight. An old 240D is as slow as any old VW 1.6L diesel but even it will cruise forever at its top speed without any risk of accelerated wear, and it will do this year after year after year. I don't think we could do this with our TDIs.

A VW TDI engine might last 400K miles, but a VW body will not. A MB diesel engine will last 400K miles and there is a good chance the body will too. I just turned over 100K miles on my Passat TDI. The Passat is holding up well but the body will be junk in 15 years. My 85 300D still has many good years left in it.

The last generation of MB's IDI diesel engine was state of the art for IDI technology. The US spec 98/99 E300 got a 175HP out of a 3L 6 cylinder engine. Performance was 0 to 60 MPH in 8.5 seconds and a top speed is 135 MPH, in a car that weighs around 3,700lbs/1682kg. When driven reasonably the E300 could return up to 35 MPG. Not bad at all for a heavy car with a lot of power accessories.

MB timing chains easily last 150K miles but start to stretch after that. Most AWARE MB owners replace the timing chain between 150K to 200K miles. It's very easy to check the timing chain stretch. I have heard some tragic stories of owners whining about the engine just locking up with over 200K on the original timing chain. Dealer cost of replacing a timing chain is about the same as replacing a timing belt on a TDI.

MB's design philosophy was to engineer the car, and then assign a price to cover the cost to build it plus a good profit. Everybody else picks a selling price, and then designs the car to maximize the profit at the selling price. As has been said here before, you get what you pay for.

Brian, 97 Passat TDI, 85 300D-T
 

RES

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 1999
Location
TRUMBULL,CT. USA
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2000 Jetta TDI, 1997 Passat (Totaled in Accident) 2010 Jetta Sportwagon TDI
Brian:
Like usual you have hit the nail right on the head. We have had MBs and VWs in the family and there is no comparison. My mother kept her 1970 MB 250 for 25 years driving it every day before she got a new one. The car is still being driven by someone somewhere. Unfortunately all recent MB diesels are automatic and rear wheel drive. There is still hope, I think Ferdinand Piech is trying to emulate MB even in the low price VW models judging by the quality of the new Audi,s and VWs. There is one area that MB has been lagging behind and that is in the sheet metal areas. If you look at Lexus/Toyota and Audi you will see very precisely fitting sheet metal panels with small gaps. MB gaps are large until recently. Does anyone want to do a Lexus-MB comparison? When Ferdinand Piech stated his high water mark for improving quality he cited Lexus not MB.
 
M

mickey

Guest
I agree that you certainly can't compare the technology of an old MB diesel to a TDI. I have one of each, and they're two entirely different animals. One is a fun little commuter car (New Beetle) that uses modern technology to achieve up to 50 mpg with excellent emissions numbers. The other is a gigantic, overengineered "tank" that uses 1930's era technology to move 4000 pounds of steel down the road in total safety with relatively good economy and incredible longevity.

I would highly recommend an old MB turbodiesel to an experienced backyard mechanic. The really affordable ones are all over a decade old, and you need to be prepared to fix stuff. But the cars are easy to work on and parts are readily available. Look around until you find "THE" car. Low miles aren't everything. You want to shop for owners as much as for cars. For that reason I generally recommend buying from a private seller rather than a dealer. You want to find a true "dieselhead" who has meticulously cared for the vehicle. Service records are a plus, but an owner-serviced car without records can be just as good (if not better) if they say the right things about maintainance. (I bought mine from a complete mechanical dunce who paid the dealer HUGE sums of money to maintain it. That works too!) When you find THE Mercedes, don't spend too much time haggling over price. Just buy it!

-mickey

p.s. If anybody wants to argue about technology they should compare TDIs against the new Direct Injection MB diesel engines. If you're talking about OLD Mercedes diesels you need to compare a 1980 300D to a 1980 Rabbit diesel!
 

think diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2000
Location
Northern Virginia
Mercedes diesels are VERY nice. I hope I own one someday. I guess my point was, dollar-for-dollar I like $18,000 worth of new TDI versus $18,000 worth of aging Mercedes. I'm not saying my TDi will last any longer than the Benz. I would just rather have something quicker and more fuel efficent that I can rely on. If I had more substantial mechanical skills and the time you can be sure there would ALSO be an older Mercedes diesel in my driveway.


------------------
'99 New Jetta GL TDI
"May the torque be with you."
 

BKmetz

Administrator, Member #10
Staff member
Joined
Sep 25, 1997
Location
Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
MBs are NOT hard cars to work on. Just ask Mickey, Valois, DSLPWR, Osidak, etc. I find my MB easier to work on than my VW. I can also buy MB parts cheaper than VW parts.

There is just as much technical help on the internet for MBs as there is for VWs. Plenty of options for mail-order parts, MB or Euro OEM supplier, new and used.

Brian, 97 Passat TDI, 85 300D-T
 

valois

Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
BKMetz is right on, I really love my 83 300CD, My philosophy is to not spare expense with it. I identified the problems with it when I purchased it and have replaced anything that had the possibility of being worn. It's getting there, The motor is smooth and strong, the ride is fantastic. I have a few small interior items to address and it's finished. In my mind it's better than a new car. I would be hard pressed to find a suitable new replacement for it. It's comfortable and solid. Do not get me wrong, the Jetta is refined, fast and more economical, but for a road trip the MB is where it's at. Both my children are their full height now, We are extremely comfortable in the Benz, for extended periods of time.
 

DSLPWR

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 1999
Location
United States of America
As stated earlier, outside the engine compartment, a Mercedes and a Volkswagen are two different beasts borne of two different virtues.

I didn't want to sound pretentious earlier, but it's pretty true the Mercedes owner has less concern about fuel and initial costs than the VW owner. The two cars fit two different buyers. Ferdinand Piech is trying to offer a Mercedes car to the common person. A wonderful concept many consumers buy into mentally and, given the current economy, financially. But the concept is flawed; not everyone can have the best. Something will be compromised in the process. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be the engine!

I'd still take either. Of course, personal choice would be the 98/99 E300 Turbodiesel. I know if I had one, someone would have to pry the steering wheel from my cold, dead fingers before I let it go. That's probably why there are so few for sale...

DSLPWR
 
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