Saturn

matt1

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Just doing a little research. I was wondering what your opinions on Saturn was. Mainly their sedans and wagons, if they still even make any. I know they are GM, but where are they made, are their parts(powertrain) all domestic, foriegn, mixed or what? I only know two people who have owned them, both stated that they are very pleased. Both friends have had their cars 5 years plus. Please...let me know your opinions.
Thx.
 

tjl

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matt1 said:
Just doing a little research. I was wondering what your opinions on Saturn was. Mainly their sedans and wagons, if they still even make any. I know they are GM, but where are they made, are their parts(powertrain) all domestic, foriegn, mixed or what?
Saturn models include:

S-series -- 1991-2002 small car (sedan, coupe, wagon; changed exterior look in 1996)
ION -- 2003-current small car (sedan and coupe; delta platform shared with Chevrolet Cobalt)
L-series -- midsized car in early 2000s (sedan and wagon; based on an older Opel Vectra)
VUE -- SUV
SKY -- two seat roadster (platform shared with Pontiac Solstice)
AURA -- midsized sedan (platform shared with Saab 9-3, Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac G6)

Saturn was started as almost a separate company owned by GM. The 1991 S-series was a decent small car with good (for the time) reliability (far better than any other GM small car sold in the US). But the brand was neglected through the 1990s, and is now just another GM brand. The ION and L-series were mostly not seen as being that competitive in their classes when they came out.
 
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leicaman

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I am very qualified to answer your question. I have owned two Saturns. My first one, a '93, was traded with 131000 on the clock for a '99. The tranny, despite religious service intervals was starting to go at 130k. Clutch pack I was told.

My '99, SL2 with 118000 on the clock is working fine yet. I have had every service interval done by the dealership on this car. I still have every receipt. Repairs and so on has been very reasonable.

My only beef on both the cars, despite sticking to the 3000 oil and filter routine and taking good care of the cars, the SL2 twin cam motor tends to use about a quart and a half between changes.

GM IMHO ruined Saturn by bringing out that mornic ION. I don't like the central speedometer pod, I don't like the klutzy styling and I don't like at all the fact it is no longer made in fully in the same factory. I really think the concept was very good, they just did not execute it properly. I still have my '99 as it is my work car. My passat is my weekend car. The SL2 could have been a killer car if they had continue to improve the original SL2 and kept making it instead of the ION.
 

Txst

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I have owned 2 Saturns myself and can say that the service is by far the best of all places. I have never been pressured by them...they have one price (no haggling outside of maybe free floor mats or something like that). I never had any arguing with them if something needed to be done...they made me feel like part of the company, they were never arrogant with me. The best buying experiences I have ever had anywhere for a vehicle... period. My cars ran very well. I had a sport coupe first and then the SL2 (special edition pearl white model). Neither one ever gave me any problems. If a TDI wasn't available...I would have certainly looked hard at the new Saturn Aura...sweet lookin' car.

I don't really care for the Ion (mostly because of the guages being in the center of the dash) but their replacement for it (supposed to come next year) should be nice...maybe an Opel Astra type vehicle (that could be much nicer than the current Ion). I know several people that have owned Saturns and become very loyal to them after their first one. It's because Saturn takes good care of them. Their owner loyalty is mostly because of the relationships built with the dealerships. Good cars...good experiences. That's why I wish Saturn sold TDI's!!!:) When I had mine...most of the parts were made in the U.S. I don't know if an honest dealership exists these days...but if there is, it's Saturn... they are very up-front. And I have also seen salesmen work there for many years because they truly like working for the company. Hope this is helpful...
 
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El Dobro

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I've dealt with Saturn from the beginning in late 1990 and if they come out with a TDI, I'll be the first in line.
 

daBooj

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my wife had a saturn sl1 before buying the golf. It was a 98. We sold it to the best man in our wedding while it had ~120k miles on it. Was running fine, though the transmission was starting to have just a little problem getting into reverse. The car was an automatic, and still gets between 35 and 40mpg on the highway at 70mph.

They sound like school busses, don't handle at all, the seats are uncomfortable, the interior is cheap, but it will get you where you want to go in a cost effective manner.

That was then. When I was looking to buy a new car (the 04 Jetta), my wife urged me to look at saturn since hers worked so well for her. The Ion took away all the things she liked about saturns, didn't even have the rubber-made doors. I looked into them, decided against them.
 

supton

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While I liked my '00 SL, it was what it was: a cheap car. Traded it at 116k for the TDI. Had some rattles, and cheap interiour. Didn't like the Ion's, maybe if I had bought an SW instead I woulda kept the Saturn.

The single cam motors also slurped oil too--mine was doing like 2k after the oil change and then 1k thereafter (cheap conventional as from the dealer). I've had friends say they do much better on quality Amsoil though.

But I still liked that SL, simple car...
 

Hookstra

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I owned a 1998 SL-1. I'll never own another Saturn again. Didn't come close to estimated fuel economy numbers, every time something went wrong it was at least a $500 fix. Bought it with 17K miles on it and it spent as much time in the shop as it did on the road. Couldn't sell it with a clear conscience so kept driving it and fixing it and driving it and fixing it. Front end literally fell apart at 40K miles - this was the only warranty fix. Alternator was next, then a series of sensors (which were very expensive) at which point it started "slurping" oil as you all so delicately put it. I posted my troubles on the saturnfans website and eventually got rid of the car by letting my step daughter buy it with the full knowledge of the car being problematic (she was desperate for a car after wrecking a couple).

My wife finally told the dealer she might as well have her direct deposit checks go straight to their bank account.
 
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matt1

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Thank you all for the info, good stuff. Any new posts are welcomed.
 

Tickbait

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If memory serves me, they are made in Tenn. (Not sure if this was already mentioned?).

My wife and I have an 02' L300 (with just under 35k on it). We bought it new and it has been a good car, but with the V6 it is a little thirsty. (Then again, I think everything is thirsty when compared to my Golf :D )
 

tjl

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Tickbait said:
If memory serves me, they are made in Tenn. (Not sure if this was already mentioned?).
The S-series and the ION were/are made in the original Saturn plant in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

However, the L-series was made in another GM plant in Delaware, and it would not be surprising if other models are made wherever their platform siblings are made. Saturn is just another GM brand these days, rather than a different kind of company (though dealer service still scores highly in surveys).
 

supton

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Ha! yes most cars are thirsty.

My SL did 40 when I first bought it, but I started driving a bit faster over time. At the end it was doing about 36 at 70-75mph. I do very little city driving, so it wasn't hard to get close to highway mpg; a short jaunt always involves 20 miles at highway speeds.

But it did have a tendancy to drop to 33mpg on cold winter days. Starting and letting it run for 5-10 minutes in the morning probably had a hand in that too. At 33mpg it was getting pretty annoying having to refuel every 3 days.
 

bigEZ

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my wife got an sc-1 in 1995. she loved the car and drove it until 2001, trading it in with 105k miles. i thought it was small, had very little power and might get blown off the hwy by a yugo, but it did handle well and required very little maintenance.

we traded the sc-1 in for an L 300, which was an ok car, but we had a lemon, and it would not be fair to judge the whole line on our experience with that car. i will say, tho, that the car had very uninspired (ie, bland) styling, the interior looked and felt cheap, and the opel v6 engine was one of the loudest "premium" engines i have ever encountered. when you ran up the revs, it sounded like an overworked civic. power was pretty good, but the shifting wasn't smooth at all, and the economy was pretty lousy.

i looked into a vue a couple of year before i bought my passat. same basic uninspired styling, bad fuel economy, not for me.

the buying experience is very good; the salepersons know the cars inside and out and want to make sure you do too. no haggling on the base price, but when we bought the L 300 our salesperson did morph into a normal "stealer" and try to get us to add all the little extras. i don't think all of them do that. the cars are dependable, and maintenance is easy and inexpensive.

my wife still misses her saturns. i don't; they just weren't my cup of tea.
 

Txst

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tjl said:
The S-series and the ION were/are made in the original Saturn plant in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

However, the L-series was made in another GM plant in Delaware, and it would not be surprising if other models are made wherever their platform siblings are made. Saturn is just another GM brand these days, rather than a different kind of company (though dealer service still scores highly in surveys).
I'd have to disagree. Saturn is not just another GM brand. I've dealt with them since they started. The experience with them is nothing like any other part of GM. It is a different kind of company. The cars aren't perfect but I wish all car companies ran their business as well and as consumer friendly. I'd buy the new Aura in a heartbeat if a TDI wasn't available.
 

samspock

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I have had 3. A '92 SL1 which was my first new car. An 00 LS2 (later called the L300) and a 00 SL2 I bought for my wife to drive. The first one I liked the best. I had to trade it in at 7 years old and 140k because it was starting to wear out. I liked the ride and it did the job for me. I even drove that one from Maryland to California and back.

In 2000 I wanted a new car and had been waiting for the L series to come out. I liked the way Saturn did things and figured that made the most sense. I test drove one in late 99 then bought in Febuary of 2000. A week later my then girlfreind's (current wife's) car died so I bougth an SL2 for her to drive. The one mistake I made on both is I got them using their baloon financing plan that looks like a lease but isn't. It turned into a financial mess.

When our second kid was almost here we had to turn in (lease-like thing again) the SL2 since it could not hold two rear facing kids in the back at the same time as anyone over 5' tall in the front seats. We got a minivan instead. We had looked at the VUE but it was not big enough. My wife has never forgiven me for making her give up her "little blue car" and make her drive the van. We had no problems with it at all.

The L series was a bit different. It was clear when we were at about 75k miles that the car was just not that rugged. We had problems with the steering, alternators, batteries etc. It seemed that I was paying on average $400 per month to keep it running! So after I had paid it off I gave it to my mother in law who would probably only put about 5000 miles per year on it. I then bought the Passat.

The dealerships for Saturn are really all that is left of the old Saturn. I went by one on sunday and noticed that the Aura is built in Kansas. Not Spring Hill. I was supposed to go to a Saturn get-together at the factory in 99 but had to skip it because of a friend's wedding. Any other car maker have company sponsored get-together's at their factory like Saturn did? Their dealer network is nice but the car has become nothing special.
 
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matt1

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Thanks Samspock, that seems to be the trend, they started out great but now the only distinction from GM is the customer service at the dealerships...interesting. Thanks to all. Please feel free posting your experiences. The reason for this is my wife and I are considering moving further out of the metroplex and I was wondering what else would be recommended for long drives (of course the TDI is the obvious choice), but at a cheaper price. TDI's are crazy expensive right now.
 
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Txst

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Like I said...check out the Saturn Aura...doesn't have to be made in Tenn. to be good. It's getting great reviews right now and looks way better than the same old bland camrys and maximas. Test drive one and let us know what you think... They start at $20,000 for a basic one that has quite a few extras that come with it.

My experiences with Saturn have been great and I'd buy another in a heartbeat if they had a TDI.
 
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TDI'watcher

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For milage and price, the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe is an intersting option. Like an oversized hatchback, but not as ackward as a PT Cruiser. The Toyota will be more expensive (and hold value better) but also has some OK trim levels.
For the price of a used TDI you can get a new Matrix. Like the Jetta, putting adults in the back seat is almost torture.
Oh, and the factory for making both is in North America. I think out in Cali.
 

bigEZ

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TDI'watcher said:
For milage and price, the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe is an intersting option. Like an oversized hatchback, but not as ackward as a PT Cruiser. The Toyota will be more expensive (and hold value better) but also has some OK trim levels.
For the price of a used TDI you can get a new Matrix. Like the Jetta, putting adults in the back seat is almost torture.
Oh, and the factory for making both is in North America. I think out in Cali.
my wife has a vibe and loves it. corolla engine, so should be fairly trouble-free and dependable. base model rated for 38 mpg hwy (or was in 2003, i haven't checked lately); anyway, still pretty good mileage. not very good power on her base model, but it does all right.
 

jumpn

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Have a Vue

I traded in a 2000 F 150 for a 2004 Saturn Vue back in October of 04. Mine has the honda v-6 in it, All wheel drive (in reality, fwd with assist when the front wheels slip) 260 hp motor in that thing makes it very quick. If I had to do it again at the time, I may have gone with the Redline Vue package. 18inch wheels, lowered from factory, spoiler package. Looked a little overdone to me at first, but started to like it of course after I had done the deal with the one we have now. Lots of torque steer with enthusiastic take offs, cheap feel to interior plastic, and gets 18mpg in city, 23 on highway. Next to nothing for aftermarket parts, but I still like it. Check out
saturnfans.com for their web-based forums. We plan on trading it in for either an Odyessy (sp?) or Sienna sometime.
 

MrMopar

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Ah Saturn, the car of unemployed psych majors.

Saturn started out as kind of a pie-in-the-sky dream of GM, a truely "different" kind of car company (just like their tag line). Think of Saturn as what Scion is to Toyota. GM tried to go all out and build a car brand that could compete with imports at the time. GM kind of know that if they built their new car at any of the established factories, it would be a rattle-trap POS because it would have the same GM quality (oxymoron) as their other cars. Think hard about what the early 1990s Luminas and Cavaliers used to be like.

To get a fresh start GM built the Saturn factory in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and very remarkably, didn't have UAW involvement with this experiment. Saturn build their initial models (the SL, SC, and SW) off a dedicated platform with a dedicated engine. Saturn used those plastic body side panels to keep the car lightweight, resist dents, and in theory they could change the bodywork very easily. In practice, Saturn built the same 3 cars almost unchanged for a decade. The dealership network had their no-haggle stress free atmosphere, which is really the only thing that sold the cars because imports were still better despite the good intentions of GM.

There are a few reasons why Saturn never really caught on as a car company, but the reason I suspect as being the greatest is the lack of later support from GM. A car brand really can't be built in short time like the method that GM tried to use. Scion works for Toyota because their cars are built off of current production platforms - rebadged cars that are already built and sold in other parts of the world. GM built Saturns on a dedicated platform - expensive and long term in development because no other cars use it. It was hard for Saturn to come up with money to update the platform of their cars because the sales volume never was high enough to have the income to devote to R&D. Build a few more cars off the same platform as a different brand, and then companies can share R&D. Saturn started out small, and then GM pretty much didn't give much financial support - especially not help developing future products in the time span that they were needed the most. That's like telling a 4-year-old to get a job and make it on their own.

Now? Saturn pretty much just exists as a brand of big GM. The dealerships are the only thing left. The cars are now rebadged GM products made at other plants. The new ION that replaced the S-series is merely a Chevy Cobalt under the skin, and Car & Driver described the ION as "one rickety bastard of a car" in their long term test. The VUE is just a GM SUV platform that is shared with a few other products. The only selling points for that is the Honda V-6 engine, and the new mild hybrid that got a good review from the Chicago Tribune as being one of a scant few vehicles that hit it's EPA fuel economy rating in testing. The Sky roadster looks decent, and we'll see how the new Aura does in sales. But buying a Saturn now is like buying a Pontiac or a Chevy. No matter what model you get it will simply be another GM product, nothing special or different with their cars.
 

tjl

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TDI'watcher said:
For milage and price, the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe is an intersting option.

Oh, and the factory for making both is in North America. I think out in Cali.
Vibe is made in California; Matrix is made in Ontario.
 

tjl

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MrMopar said:
To get a fresh start GM built the Saturn factory in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and very remarkably, didn't have UAW involvement with this experiment.
The UAW was involved from the beginning, but both GM and the UAW knew that their typical "civil war" style of management / labor relations could wreck the Saturn experiment, which both wanted to succeed. Saturn's agreement with the UAW was different from what the rest of GM had with the UAW, intended to create a much more cooperative atmosphere.

But as Saturn became less successful in the 1990s (as it was starved of new product), labor relations turned back to the "old way", and Saturn became part of the overall GM agreement with the UAW in 2000.

It was hard for Saturn to come up with money to update the platform of their cars because the sales volume never was high enough to have the income to devote to R&D. Build a few more cars off the same platform as a different brand, and then companies can share R&D. Saturn started out small, and then GM pretty much didn't give much financial support - especially not help developing future products in the time span that they were needed the most. That's like telling a 4-year-old to get a job and make it on their own.
Also, Saturn's first products were small cars, introduced as small cars in general were declining in popularity among the US car buying public.
 

TDI'watcher

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bigEZ said:
not according to edmunds:

"Built in the same factory as the Toyota Matrix, the Vibe was a jointly developed vehicle that shares most major components with its Japanese cousin."

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/pontiac/vibe/100536817/review.html
I've read both statements previously, thats why I started with both made in North America. I didn't know what is more current or correct though.

But yeah, my wife would have a Vibe if she needed her own daily driver. It's got a higher view of the road and decent cargo space.

Back on topic: A friend of the family has a Saturn. Its given him no problems and is like 8 years old. There also only like 80,000 miles on it so it hasn't started falling apart yet if it will. Interestingly he's got a Prius on order that is finally made to his order and shipped. He's going to miss a large chunk of tax incentive by about 10 days though when he finally takes possesion.
 

Beeble

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We traded in my wife's 1995 sedan on the Beetle last fall. It was a good car; we only had two major problems with it. One was that the sunroof track rusted and we had to have it replaced in about 2002-3. The other was that one of the gears in the tranny wore out, which I attribute to my wife's habit of shifting into first gear while rolling backwards and then using the clutch to brake. (Yes, I nagged her about it, but she didn't stop until the tranny stopped working.) It got about 28mpg on the highway.

We bought my son a used 1998 wagon in summer 2005. So far, it's been a good car for him. He's driven it to and from college (1500 miles) twice and it's a good road car that holds a ton of stuff. Don't know about mileage.

Bottom line: we've been happy with them. Service was always excellent, just what was needed and no more, never needed a job redone. And the "here's the price" attitude was wonderful.

I think the current styling is awful (the 1995 still had a really distinctive look) and the recent "demotion" of the brand to just another GM branch may spell trouble. But that doesn't negate our good experiences in the past. As far as fuel economy goes, they're still stuck in the 20th century, when upper 20s was considered "efficient". Who killed that electric car that looked a lot like a Saturn?
 
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tjl

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bigEZ said:
not according to edmunds:

"Built in the same factory as the Toyota Matrix, the Vibe was a jointly developed vehicle that shares most major components with its Japanese cousin."

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/pontiac/vibe/100536817/review.html
http://www.nummi.com/vehicles.html says that the NUMMI factory in California makes the Corolla, Tacoma, and Vibe, and previously made the Hilux, Prizm, Nova, and Voltz.

And if you go to http://www.cars.com and look at used Matrixes, you'll find that their VINs start with 2, which means made in Canada, so they are not made in the NUMMI factory in the US.
 

matt1

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Beeble said:
We traded in my wife's 1995 sedan on the Beetle last fall. It was a good car; we only had two major problems with it. One was that the sunroof track rusted and we had to have it replaced in about 2002-3. The other was that one of the gears in the tranny wore out, which I attribute to my wife's habit of shifting into first gear while rolling backwards and then using the clutch to brake. (Yes, I nagged her about it, but she didn't stop until the tranny stopped working.) It got about 28mpg on the highway.

We bought my son a used 1998 wagon in summer 2005. So far, it's been a good car for him. He's driven it to and from college (1500 miles) twice and it's a good road car that holds a ton of stuff. Don't know about mileage.

Bottom line: we've been happy with them. Service was always excellent, just what was needed and no more, never needed a job redone. And the "here's the price" attitude was wonderful.

I think the current styling is awful (the 1995 still had a really distinctive look) and the recent "demotion" of the brand to just another GM branch may spell trouble. But that doesn't negate our good experiences in the past. As far as fuel economy goes, they're still stuck in the 20th century, when upper 20s was considered "efficient". Who killed that electric car that looked a lot like a Saturn?
Interesting.....thanks. Actually the EV1 was introduced through Saturn, sold at Saturn Dealerships in California. That is a very good documentary.
 

MrMopar

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tjl said:
The UAW was involved from the beginning, but both GM and the UAW knew that their typical "civil war" style of management / labor relations could wreck the Saturn experiment, which both wanted to succeed. Saturn's agreement with the UAW was different from what the rest of GM had with the UAW, intended to create a much more cooperative atmosphere.
That's more what I meant to say. The UAW wasn't involved as in they didn't (at first) use their strong arm tactics at this assembly plant.

I remember seeing commercials on TV that advertised how the average union worker was more empowered to make good production decisions at the Saturn plant. Something along the lines of a worker telling a story about "the day I stopped the line for the first time." As in the workers had pull cords to stop the assembly line if they had a problem that needed to be corrected. The guy told how it was just a simple misaligned window clip or something, but blah blah blah about how he felt important for making a decision like that in order to produce a quality car.
 
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