What is there is not a fix?

It has been said for a while that gen1 cars might not be able to be fixed. What if we take the Mod Money and the cars cannot be fixed? If they are to be fixed, what will the costs be in mileage and performance? Many are not happy with the 09-10 numbers with a buyback (a drop of $3,500 from 2011 to 2010) but what will our options be?

You won't get $ if there's no fix.

Our frustrations etc need to be taken to the judge then.. if someone finds out how we can give feedback

laminated said:

Our frustrations etc need to be taken to the judge then.. if someone finds out how we can give feedback

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I have a sense that the judge will know that there are a lot grumbling that it's a bad deal, but we'll hear Thursday. Anyway, there are at least 3 formal commenting times to come. FTC and DOJ must issue a comment period about the settlement before they can take it to the judge to be finalized. The CAS typically will have a preliminary fairness hearing, that's the July 26 date, after which everyone must be mailed what their settlement would be. During the time between July 26 and when the final settlement ruling (proposed to be first week of October by the CAS lawyers), there is a comment period on the CAS. Both the FTC and the CAS are intertwined, so commenting may only have to happen once, but sending it to both can't hurt.

FTC failed to post how to submit comments (remember this will be public domain/published to the internet, so think carefully about what you write), so on the FTC blog about the settlement, I asked how to submit comments, waiting for a response there.

The CAS commenting will be detailed at the latest in the preliminary settlement hearing, so no path for those to get to the judge yet either.

Philpug said:

It has been said for a while that gen1 cars might not be able to be fixed. What if we take the Mod Money and the cars cannot be fixed? If they are to be fixed, what will the costs be in mileage and performance? Many are not happy with the 09-10 numbers with a buyback (a drop of $3,500 from 2011 to 2010) but what will our options be?

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One of the docs, have to go back and find it again said there was an initial opt out date, but that would extend to June 2018, that if no fix was found, and you hadn't selected a buyback, you could still opt out of the settlement, and sue individually. The wording of the overview and the actual documents don't line up exactly, so this is something to read tomorrow to sort it out.

just my theory, but they obviously passed by cheating.. the fix will be mostly nuking the car so it performs horribly but meets the requirements.. or as close as they can reasonably get and the EPA will sign off on it.. they dont want to clog up dealerships with complicated hardware retrofits, they were given pretty tight windows of 90 days to accomplish it at your request so thats a clue right there that this will be mostly software and little if any hardware.. and more of a gesture to the EPA than anything else. how many brand new exhaust systems can they make and distribute with these tight windows?

the money will be compensation for ending up with a car that performs nothing like we wanted and more like CARB wanted.. but the good news is even the republic of California emissions testing facilities didnt pick it up, so if you restore the performance via aftermarket means it should pass just like it does now.. presuming you leave the hardware alone.

So if I'm waiting for a fix and a year and half later get T-boned, I'm out the buy back and the fix money.

Yeah I'll be looking for the comment section, I'd say if we agree to the fix we should get cash and then wait, that way if above does happen, then you're at least made whole.

Honestly, I don't see a reason not to just take the buyback and stop stressing over it. Everyone around here should know fully well that no fix is coming for the 2009-2010's, so why waste 2 years hoping for what you know won't come just to sell it back then?

740GLE said:

So if I'm waiting for a fix and a year and half later get T-boned, I'm out the buy back and the fix money.

Yeah I'll be looking for the comment section, I'd say if we agree to the fix we should get cash and then wait, that way if above does happen, then you're at least made whole.

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If they doled out the cash now, how are they going to ensure you get the fix done if it DOES miraculously appear? This is a settlement primarily about the emissions cheating - the goal is to stop the pollution - by either fixing the cars, or getting rid of them. Your proposal does neither of those things.

740GLE said:

So if I'm waiting for a fix and a year and half later get T-boned, I'm out the buy back and the fix money.

Yeah I'll be looking for the comment section, I'd say if we agree to the fix we should get cash and then wait, that way if above does happen, then you're at least made whole.

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supposedly your car is insured, is it not? in that case you would get a repair payout or a total loss payout.

nayr said:

but the good news is even the republic of California emissions testing facilities didnt pick it up, so if you restore the performance via aftermarket means it should pass just like it does now.. presuming you leave the hardware alone.

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But would a sport reflash override the portion of the ECU that VW programmed to know when it was being tested? Without the actual cheat software even the original tune would have been illegal, right?

the cheating defeated the EPA's testing, since no states measure nox on diesel engines, the cheat was unnecessary for regular emissions testing..

the cheat only came into play when they were getting the vehicles certified, once they got that signed off the cheat had accomplished its goal.

dropnosky said:

supposedly your car is insured, is it not? in that case you would get a repair payout or a total loss payout.

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Really your only hope would be that because of the buyback, your car's value would increase back to where it would have been had this not happen.

but yes, doubtfully you would come out ahead especially since you didn't get the extra $ because you never got the fix.

CraziFuzzy said:

Honestly, I don't see a reason not to just take the buyback and stop stressing over it. Everyone around here should know fully well that no fix is coming for the 2009-2010's, so why waste 2 years hoping for what you know won't come just to sell it back then?

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Fair question.
I plan to wait until the last day possible to do the fix. If none is available (likely),
then I plan to wait until the last day possible to do the buyback.
I love my 2012 A3 just fine and I won't get enough back to fully replace it.
That, and I have 40,000mi left on my extended warranty.

tobianogreg said:

You won't get $ if there's no fix.

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This is rubbish. Please don't peddle nonsense.

The settlement makes it clear what will happen if there is no fix. Your remaining options will be to :

1) accept the buyback
2) Keep it and don't fix it, in which case you won't get any money and might end up with a massive paperweight on your hands.

^ But your 2) is exactly what tobianogreg said.

Please excuse my ignorance, how many Gens are there in the CR 2.0? I thought the engines were roughly the same 09-15. Just putting on my bean counter hat with my engineering background, there is no way they are making a fix. How long have we been promised an AWD TDI, since like 2012. VW has no intention of playing the diesel game in the US Market.

The stated goal was to have 85% buyback. That leaves roughly 75k cars left that need to be fixed. It's not a simple software fix, the DPF barely makes 100k miles when run intermittently, imagine cycling it more? If there was a simple urea fix they would have announced it by now, or at least hinted at it (much like they forever tease gorgeous European stuff we can't have over here).

So for 75k cars that you have already sold, you need to invest the engineering resources to find a compliant exhaust system, while the EPA has a colonoscope in you, and you just forked over $10B to clear the deck of the rest of these cars? Never gonna happen. What is the ROI on that.

I would like to keep my TDI, fix or not, but if you can't come up with a HPFP or other exotic parts 5 years from now, is the car really worth anything. I would expect a statement in spring 2018 that after 'countless' hours of engineering expense, VW is unable to satisfy the EPA on the 09-15 TDI's, and that they will no longer support a diesel platform in the US Market. I know they promised a '17 TDI, it is probably in the same shipping container as my '13 AWD Sportwagen.

64deuce said:

Please excuse my ignorance, how many Gens are there in the CR 2.0?

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Three:

Gen 1: 2009 - 2014 Golf-based cars (includes Jetta, wagons, Audi A3). Air-to-air intercooler (freeze-prone). Piezo injectors. LNT catalyst (no AdBlue/DEF system). The emission control components are mostly in a row underneath the floor (within the central tunnel). The early models have some layout differences but operationally they are all the same.

Gen 2: 2012 - 2014 Passat only. Air-to-coolant intercooler (which was a bodge after it became apparent that the air-to-air intercoolers were freezing up). SCR catalyst with AdBlue/DEF dosing system. The emission control components are under-floor.

Gen 3: 2015 only. Engine is called EA288. Air-to-coolant intercooler that is properly integrated into the intake manifold. SCR with AdBlue. The emission control components are attached to the engine and close-coupled for better thermal control. Basically in this engine the needed components are built-in rather than added-on as they were on the earlier models.

64deuce said:

I would expect a statement in spring 2018 that after 'countless' hours of engineering expense, VW is unable to satisfy the EPA on the 09-15 TDI's, and that they will no longer support a diesel platform in the US Market. I know they promised a '17 TDI, it is probably in the same shipping container as my '13 AWD Sportwagen.

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I'm somewhat expecting the 2015 models to be able to be retrofitted, but not the earlier ones. What happens after that, is anyone's guess. I suspect that diesels might remain in the higher-end models, but they're gone from affordable models.

I really believe there is a fix. And there is a lot of anecdotal evidence to consider the possibility.

CARB has publicly stated that they buckled. They raised the legal limits on NOX output four our vehicles. We will get a sticker on our cars for emissions testings.

I believe this would put us somewhat near the Euro standard. Maybe need to trap a bit more of the baddies.

I see a software fix happening and possibly a lipservice mechanical part or 2. Bigger LNT and an air flow insert like Europe.

The only reason they haven't announced the fix is because they couldn't handle the rush during the first months of the buyback starting.

Everything I've read in the legal proceeding where the case last 8 minutes- all this **** is decided well before we hear about it. So I think the fix is way beyond the progress cited and just going to be strategically implemented (to benefit VW obviously)

64deuce said:

The stated goal was to have 85% buyback. That leaves roughly 75k cars left that need to be fixed. It's not a simple software fix, the DPF barely makes 100k miles when run intermittently, imagine cycling it more? If there was a simple urea fix they would have announced it by now, or at least hinted at it (much like they forever tease gorgeous European stuff we can't have over here).
So for 75k cars that you have already sold, you need to invest the engineering resources to find a compliant exhaust system, while the EPA has a colonoscope in you, and you just forked over $10B to clear the deck of the rest of these cars? Never gonna happen. What is the ROI on that.
I would like to keep my TDI, fix or not, but if you can't come up with a HPFP or other exotic parts 5 years from now, is the car really worth anything. I would expect a statement in spring 2018 that after 'countless' hours of engineering expense, VW is unable to satisfy the EPA on the 09-15 TDI's, and that they will no longer support a diesel platform in the US Market. I know they promised a '17 TDI, it is probably in the same shipping container as my '13 AWD Sportwagen.

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I believe the stated goal was 85% participation in the program - that's buyback OR fix.

If VW gets away without coming up with a "fix" it will show the doj/ftc don't care about what happens to the consumers. Hell make them put Gen 3 setups into the Gen 1's. They can have the Gen 1's on the road but I think VW is angling for a simple buyback. This gives Gen 1 owners a single choice and alleviates the process of a fix and subsequent warranty or future work on those cars. That would also explain the low buyback numbers for those cars.

Blindsider said:

If VW gets away without coming up with a "fix" it will show the doj/ftc don't care about what happens to the consumers. Hell make them put Gen 3 setups into the Gen 1's. They can have the Gen 1's on the road but I think VW is angling for a simple buyback. This gives Gen 1 owners a single choice and alleviates the process of a fix and subsequent warranty or future work on those cars. That would also explain the low buyback numbers for those cars.

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There was no 'engineering' of the numbers, trying to make older cars worth less or anything. The numbers were established by NADA before any of these settlement talks were even imagined. Older cars are worth less simply because older cars are worth less. Miles are the death of value, and TDi's are not immune to this.

GoFaster said:

I'm somewhat expecting the 2015 models to be able to be retrofitted, but not the earlier ones. What happens after that, is anyone's guess. I suspect that diesels might remain in the higher-end models, but they're gone from affordable models.

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Given the CARB graph, the 2015 even unfixed barely is over the limit. No reason it can't be fixed easily. Best guess the first stage is turning the DEF rate back to the fully computed number rather than the dumbed down one. The second step, deal with the DPF and EGR, which probably gives an even less significant impact on the output. Thus the 2/3 1/3 split on comp, most of the way there with the DEF rate mod.

From what I gather from the description of the gen 3 proposed fix, the issue has more to do with inability of the OBDII to detect if the SCR is operating below threshold and it can't tell if you put DEF in the tank or something else.

GoFaster said:

From what I gather from the description of the gen 3 proposed fix, the issue has more to do with inability of the OBDII to detect if the SCR is operating below threshold and it can't tell if you put DEF in the tank or something else.

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Yes part 2 may be in the install of the downstream exhaust sensor, and the DEF tank sensor to detect not-DEF in the tank, although 1% DEF seems to be a pretty low bar for the sensor. Perhaps they don't even deal with the EGR rate, and the subsequent DPF issues were they to turn up the EGR rate.

Soooo, I heard back from some people in training that the "fix" has been installed in some corporate employee cars and they have been driving them to verify the "fix". Word from those people involved say there is no noticeable difference in how they drive and MPG is basically unchanged (I interpret that as within statistical error before and after).

I didn't get a definite yes or no, but thought I heard AdBlue retrofit mentioned. Don't know which cars or what was entailed in retrofitting AdBlue (Upgrade to Gen 2 or adding to Gen 1)???

But as I have heard many times, "I'll believe it when it rolls off the truck".

Jason

SilverGhost said:

Soooo, I heard back from some people in training that the "fix" has been installed in some corporate employee cars and they have been driving them to verify the "fix". Word from those people involved say there is no noticeable difference in how they drive and MPG is basically unchanged (I interpret that as within statistical error before and after).

I didn't get a definite yes or no, but thought I heard AdBlue retrofit mentioned. Don't know which cars or what was entailed in retrofitting AdBlue (Upgrade to Gen 2 or adding to Gen 1)???

But as I have heard many times, "I'll believe it when it rolls off the truck".

Jason

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Looking at the settlement docs, there's no AdBlue retrofit, but the Gen 2/3 will get a way to detect that it's really DEF in the tank and not water. Good news on the performance and MPG, if true.
(Yes, I'm an optimist)

SilverGhost said:

Soooo, I heard back from some people in training that the "fix" has been installed in some corporate employee cars and they have been driving them to verify the "fix". Word from those people involved say there is no noticeable difference in how they drive and MPG is basically unchanged (I interpret that as within statistical error before and after).

I didn't get a definite yes or no, but thought I heard AdBlue retrofit mentioned. Don't know which cars or what was entailed in retrofitting AdBlue (Upgrade to Gen 2 or adding to Gen 1)???

But as I have heard many times, "I'll believe it when it rolls off the truck".

Jason

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From what I have gathered reading the court docs, talking with my neighbor (who works for the NHTSA), there is no fix for GEN 1 that will pass muster due to the need changes to the structure of the vehicle. Basically it would have to go thru recertification if VW starts chopping up the car to add the need plumbing, stress structures and piping for the urea system. VW has essentially conceded that GEN 1 are buy back candidates only. The GEN 2 and 3 are still potentially fixable.

Logically it makes no sense from VW's perspective to even try to fix the GEN 1 cars, just the engineering, manufacturing, testing and certification time it would leave them little or no time to implement the fix. No dealer is going to want to deal with this cluster f*ck of fixing these cars and the liability if they screw any of them up. Nope if its not a simple flash or part swap the dealers don't want it.

jims2321 said:

VW has essentially conceded that GEN 1 are buy back candidates only.

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Sorry, that's not the case at all... you need to read all the documents (including CARB.) There is no need to add urea to Gen 1, and that's not what they are proposing. The EPA has backed off on emission requirements, and VW feels they can do an EGR/LNT update to get close. VW hasn't conceded anything, they've got the EPA to back off to realistic requirements in exchange for big $$ to remediate other diesel emissions to compensate.

All I heard, second hand from the person who came back from training, was they had cars that had been "fixed" and were being driven to verify how well the cars perform. Did NOT hear which cars or all cars (generations) were being driven.

As for the AdBlue comment, I take that one with more of a grain of salt because the detail were so sketchy. Sounded more like speculation on the my source's part.

Jason