First impressions after fix-NEUTERED!

beetlemania

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Richmond, VA
TDI
2002, 2010, 2013
Just got home in my daughters 2013 6-speed golf, it took them 2.5 days to figure out how to keep the CEL off.

within milliseconds I notice the lack of power. In the lower gears in lot or city traffic it feels like it has no turbo at all, like an old fashion diesel rabbit from the 80s. On the highway the car deff lost a lot of its passing power. For the first time ever I have to downshift to pass someone on flat ground go accelerate from 63-70 MPH. It just didnt move and would have taken 30-45 seconds longer than normal.

I have not read any of the technical docs or other reviews so I honestly have no real idea what they did but I feels as if they moved the turbo spool up another 1000-1500 RPMs before it really kicks in and when it does kick in its more of a nudge than a kick. All that peakyness that was fun at the top of the shift while driving aggressively is gone, replaced by an odd rattle that sounds almost like a lose cat shield on an old car.

Is the car ruined? Not really but it is less fun. Is it worth the $6100 I am getting back? Yes, but if this were MY car and not my kids, I would be using some of that money to undo whatever they did to the fun this car used to have.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I think your car has a problem. The only other report I've seen so far of a fixed car indicated no loss in power. Sounds like your daughter's car is in limp mode for some reason.

Take it back and have them fix it properly.
 

beetlemania

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Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Richmond, VA
TDI
2002, 2010, 2013
I think your car has a problem. The only other report I've seen so far of a fixed car indicated no loss in power. Sounds like your daughter's car is in limp mode for some reason.

Take it back and have them fix it properly.
She takes it to college in 2 days so I doubt we will have time. If it was in limp home mode the CEL light would be on. Also, if you had an automatic I would imagine that it would be harder to feel the loss. So be careful when comparing the 2, they could conceivably change the trans programming to mask the power ban change, not to mention their is an inherent disconnect there.

Also I have also drive a bit aggressive, winding it out in each gear, if I was a typical commuter I may not notice it as much. Its livable but its not the same car.
 

piper109

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2003
Location
Ashe Co NC
It seems that there has been quite a lot of recent BBC TV coverage over "fixed VW diesels" going into into "Limp Mode". A program called Watchdog, episode 3 from July.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Sometimes limp mode doesn't trigger a CEL. But it sounds like what you're experiencing is a change in power delivery. There are a lot of monitors in the ECU that will have to reset with the new flash. I know that people who have tuned cars have experienced a difference in response for as much as a few hundred miles as the monitors reset to the new flash.

Ask your daughter how it feels in a couple weeks.

Addition: Just spoke to a co-worker who had the fix done on his '10 Jetta (manual) yesterday. He says if anything it feels like the power is improved.
 
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beetlemania

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Oct 15, 2010
Location
Richmond, VA
TDI
2002, 2010, 2013
Sometimes limp mode doesn't trigger a CEL. But it sounds like what you're experiencing is a change in power delivery. There are a lot of monitors in the ECU that will have to reset with the new flash. I know that people who have tuned cars have experienced a difference in response for as much as a few hundred miles as the monitors reset to the new flash.

Ask your daughter how it feels in a couple weeks.

Addition: Just spoke to a co-worker who had the fix done on his '10 Jetta (manual) yesterday. He says if anything it feels like the power is improved.
Not sure what you mean by monitors however I surmise that you think that the EUC need time to reprogram itself?

Hmmm Wither way, its day 3 now and both myself and daughter agree that the car is not as peppy and lacks passing power on the highway now. Again its livable for the money but disappointing.
 

Sprocket

Sprockette's hubby
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Location
MI
TDI
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Eco Diesel, 2005 Passat Silverstone Grey, 1996 Passat Storm Grey
Sounds like something isn't right with your car. What exactly did the dealership do while they had your car besides the fix? You were having other issues as well, right?
 

tdi_sport

Veteran Member
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Jun 2, 2004
Location
vancouver canada
TDI
2004 pd tdi sport (limited edition) platinum grey and a 1996 dodge cummins diesel 4x4 5sp lots of mods and a 335d stock for now.
I suggest to you a stage 2 malone tune as well as an upgraded intercooler + egr delete with boost n temp guages. All problems solved. Jk.

This msg is in half serious jest.
 

beetlemania

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Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Richmond, VA
TDI
2002, 2010, 2013
I suggest to you a stage 2 malone tune as well as an upgraded intercooler + egr delete with boost n temp guages. All problems solved. Jk.

This msg is in half serious jest.
LOL well if it were going to be MY daily driver I would do all of that... but for my girl its fine.

There is nothing wrong with the car best I can tell and they did nothing more than the fix and the airbag recall.

The biggest issue is the lack of low end grunt, the torque is gone. We are finding ourselves having to downshift from 6th to 5th a lot on the highway now because the car is falling on its face. We have NEVER had to downshift like this in the past. Also I am used to being able to gently roll away in 2nd/3rd at stoplights with the utmost confidence that I can walk almost any other car effortlessly but that is no longer the case, I feel mortal now ;) Its not horrible its just not the car we once had. VW itself says that there will be less power so it should be no surprise to anyone that it is the case. I am willing to bet that that most people who feel no difference are driving automatics (which makes baby jebus cry). Obviously you have torque multiplication through that drive train and they can manipulate the shift points and lockup (though I do not know for a fact that they are doing this.)

While we do drive more aggressively than a lot of folks and notice the fix for this reason, we are also tree huggers and are happy that our car is now better for the planet so there is that... plus I have 2 kids in college so the money is welcome too. Eh... living with it.
 
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Rico567

Top Post Dawg
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Jun 13, 2003
Location
Central IL
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2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium (Turned in 7/7/18)
<snip>Eh... living with it.
Based on the anecdotes I have read on here about the fixes, you most certainly should reconsider "living with it." Everything (other than your report) I have read states either no detectable change in performance....or a slight, and possibly only placebo effect increase.
 

beetlemania

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Richmond, VA
TDI
2002, 2010, 2013
Based on the anecdotes I have read on here about the fixes, you most certainly should reconsider "living with it." Everything (other than your report) I have read states either no detectable change in performance....or a slight, and possibly only placebo effect increase.
Where are you reading this? I havent seen a single review
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I just drove one last night post-fix, it ran fantastic. Did not feel sluggish in the least to me, this was a 2010 automatic Jetta sedan. Owner was happy, too.
 

beetlemania

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Location
Richmond, VA
TDI
2002, 2010, 2013
Yeah I saw those 2 modest reviews, not much detail at all, I cannot tell what drive train or anything by that.

The diff is about the same as if you drive with or without the AC for the most part. To put it another way, if I was to have picked up my car from having the timing belt done, I would deffinately be bring it back to have them check the timing because I would have thought that that the belt had retarded it by 1-2 teeth.
 
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Diesl

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Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Location
Chicago
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'78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
... I am willing to bet that that most people who feel no difference are driving automatics (which makes baby jebus cry). Obviously you have torque multiplication through that drive train and they can manipulate the shift points and lockup (though I do not know for a fact that they are doing this.).....
I think you misunderstand the DSG ('automatic'). There is no hydraulic torque converter - it's 'locked up' all the time, just like a manual. This wouldn't be important for this thread, except that you seem to be drawing the wrong conclusions about other people's experiences.
 

bizzle

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May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
He is correct that the DSG shift points and torque settings can be manipulated. Those are specifically identified in a DSG tune and have been remarked upon by both post-fix owners and VW themselves.

The strange thing is that people are arguing with someone with a manual pointing out where the differences are showing. We all knew, or should have known, there are performance differences. VW has stated that to be the case but that normal/average driving wouldn't be adversely impacted. Surely people don't actually believe the fix is going to have literally no impact?
 

skromfols

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Dec 26, 2010
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Valley Springs
TDI
2017 Jaguar XE TDI, 2014 Sportwagen TDI
I had my 2014 JSW With 6 sp manual "fixed" yesterday. It was about a 90 mile drive home and I didn't notice any difference. I'm a fairly aggressive driver and enjoy driving so I do pay attention to how my engine performs. I can't swear that there is no difference, but it really isn't noticeable. Since the dealers have just started making these changes I believe there is some room for error (VW said that they fix would take 3 - 4 hours and mine took 6 - 7 hours because they were learning as they went), so if you get your car back and it feels like a wimp there's a good chance that they did something incorrectly. I would take it back and explain the noticeable difference and refer them to this forum where others haven't noticed an appreciable difference. Good luck.
 

93celicaconv

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May 22, 2013
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Wisconsin
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Turned in my 2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition to VW, DSG, Nav, Sunroof / Replaced with a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium
Skromfols, your signature says you have a 2014 JSW, 6-sp manual w/Malone 1.5 tune.

If this is the case, and you drove your "fixed" 2014 JSW 90 miles after the fix, and you didn't notice any difference, what this in comparison to your Stage 1.5 tune? I'm assuming the fix wipes out any previous tune changes by Malone in favor of its new parameters flashed in the ECM. If this is true, and you car is performing equally to your previous Malone Stage 1.5 tune, then I'm very impressed (i.e.; for those who didn't have a Malone tune, the fix should provide a performance improvement equal to a previous Malone Stage 1.5).
 

rfortson

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Aug 24, 2011
Location
Houston (Clear Lake)
TDI
2012 Jetta Surfwagen TDI
My wife is still debating on when/if to get her '12 Jetta 6Sp fixed. Right now, she's waiting for more reviews to come in (and for the dealer to get more experience).

In the forum's opinion, will this fix be "fixable" with a tune afterwards? If her car is neutered, can it be undone with the right tune?
 

740GLE

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Aug 19, 2009
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NH
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2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
the fix is mostly tune related, which can be tuned to untune the fix. Haven't heard much about flashing back to a "stock" stage 1 malone after the fix has been performed, if they need to send a new tune or if the "stock" stage 1 will work.
 

turbobrick240

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Nov 18, 2014
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
the fix is mostly tune related, which can be tuned to untune the fix. Haven't heard much about flashing back to a "stock" stage 1 malone after the fix has been performed, if they need to send a new tune or if the "stock" stage 1 will work.
A Malone stage 1 tune is not stock. There is no reason the fixed cars can't be tuned or retuned to any of Malones or other tuners files. It's not like the fix changed the immobilizer.
 

sriracha

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805
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2005 Jetta Wagon 5mt, 1982 Rabbit truck (gas)
A Malone stage 1 tune is not stock. There is no reason the fixed cars can't be tuned or retuned to any of Malones or other tuners files. It's not like the fix changed the immobilizer.
If the fix increases the DPF regeneration frequency and increases EGR, can a Malone tune change that back to more stock conditions? I'm worried about how the fix will affect the longevity and reliability of the equipment.
 

93celicaconv

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May 22, 2013
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Wisconsin
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Turned in my 2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition to VW, DSG, Nav, Sunroof / Replaced with a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium
Malone has stated that they will not alter the emissions control of the ECU (EGR & DPF regen). They will alter fuel timing & flow and other items. But if the car was "fixed", they will not alter the emissions mods made by VW. Hence I'm thinking of buying a 2nd ECM for mine from a salvage yard (which would not have had the fix applied) to use as a fallback if I'm not happy with the emissions changes made to the ECM by VW. I'm not comfortable that this is a failsafe way to get back to original though.
 

skromfols

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Valley Springs
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2017 Jaguar XE TDI, 2014 Sportwagen TDI
Skromfols, your signature says you have a 2014 JSW, 6-sp manual w/Malone 1.5 tune.

If this is the case, and you drove your "fixed" 2014 JSW 90 miles after the fix, and you didn't notice any difference, what this in comparison to your Stage 1.5 tune? I'm assuming the fix wipes out any previous tune changes by Malone in favor of its new parameters flashed in the ECM. If this is true, and you car is performing equally to your previous Malone Stage 1.5 tune, then I'm very impressed (i.e.; for those who didn't have a Malone tune, the fix should provide a performance improvement equal to a previous Malone Stage 1.5).
The Malone 1.5 tune was erased last year when VW came out with some required modification. I avoided the modification until it was time to get my annual registration and DMV refused the renewal unless I did the modification.

I put about 150 miles on the car today and my wife put about 100 miles on it (she's also an aggressive driver) and both of us agree that it appears to have as much power as prior to the modification. But I've already contacted Malone and will put my tune (or the 2.0) back on the car. The tune made a big difference when towing my ATV over the Sierra Nevada mountains, which I do fairly often.
 

skromfols

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Valley Springs
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2017 Jaguar XE TDI, 2014 Sportwagen TDI
the fix is mostly tune related, which can be tuned to untune the fix. Haven't heard much about flashing back to a "stock" stage 1 malone after the fix has been performed, if they need to send a new tune or if the "stock" stage 1 will work.
I've been in touch with Malone and they will need to read the info off of the ECU to determine what, if anything, they'll need to do with their tunes. Hopefully this will be done soon.
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
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Vancouver
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PD jetta wagon
Mark got a few last week and at first glance not much looks changed :) We were able to ID through the OBD2 port like normal so hopefully the flashzillas work as well. Only time will tell. The Canadian fixes are somewhat delayed due to a number of aspects, but we'll have a vehicle or two in to dyno and compare as soon as we can.
 

sriracha

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805
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Mark got a few last week and at first glance not much looks changed :) We were able to ID through the OBD2 port like normal so hopefully the flashzillas work as well. Only time will tell. The Canadian fixes are somewhat delayed due to a number of aspects, but we'll have a vehicle or two in to dyno and compare as soon as we can.

Thanks for your insight! It would be great to see some dyno comparisons.

Do you mind sharing with us, what differences you do see in the programming?
 

93celicaconv

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May 22, 2013
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Wisconsin
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Turned in my 2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition to VW, DSG, Nav, Sunroof / Replaced with a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium
Thanks for your insight! It would be great to see some dyno comparisons.

Do you mind sharing with us, what differences you do see in the programming?
Ditto for me on this request also. What is different, original vs. fixed, on Gen 1 2.0L TDI engines (power & torque curves, mileage information, sound, etc.). Also what will be different with the various tunes (original vs. fixed). Would also be good to know what was changed on the DSG programming and how that would affect Stage 2 and above tunes that require torque value updates with the DSG.
 

Owain@malonetuning

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Vancouver
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PD jetta wagon
Will definitely post some information once we have a better conclusion, very high work load at the moment but Mark will get to it when he can. Rail pressure and boost looks pretty well the same, so peak power should be about the same. It's going to be tricky to test, same as the ea288s were. Shy of using a dynapack or engine dyno it'll be hard to get usable data without spending a lot of time. I know with the dynapack we can see the difference between fuel types, oil types, plug gap, or even a few degrees of AIT. When everything is controlled properly, especially on a stock car, doing 4-6 runs just looks like a single line. I can test a few months later and compare results. The same can't be said about rollers typically since there's more variables.

I'm expecting the drops to be really minor wide open based on what a few customers have said. Partial throttle might be a different story, we can also simulate near constant road cruising, or tip in acceleration on hills and such. So if we can get a fair comparison between two cars there might be something we can pick out there. So far we haven't had any complaints on manual EA189s with the fix, most people are saying the car isn't noticeably difference, which is great to hear given all the worry!
 
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