Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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bl00tdi

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Yeah I'm with IBW on this one. An EV is all electric all the time. But whatever. I'll still be driving my diesels.
What about those Volt and i3 rex owners that live and work within the electric range? See the mental contorting that you have to start to do if you answer that question? ;)


I figured by the replies you gents weren't actually interested in ever owning one of these foo-foo plugins anyways, amirite? ;)



All jokes aside, my replies are more for people that are actually interested in a "plugin" and just wanted to offer my observations and experience with the Volt. I do miss my TDI from time to time though, just not the 5MT in stop and go....
 

AntonLargiader

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There are enough subtle differences between all these vehicles for prospective owners to really appreciate if they do some digging while cross-shopping.
Exactly. There's no need to try to create categories just so we can pigeonhole the cars into them. The Volt, i3 and Prius were designed in the wild-west days of hybrids and companies were throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick.

To me, hybrids are cars with mixed power sources. Could be:
- Classic Prius style load leveling with tiny battery
- Same but with larger battery that can be plugged in for more BEV mode (Fusion, Pacifica)
- Same but no ICE operation in BEV mode (typical REX: Volt and i3)
- ICE charges battery only, or powers wheels. I don't care.
- other combinations with even subtler distinctions (i8 maybe)

No, diesel-electric locomotives aren't hybrids. To me, if they had a battery for load leveling then they would be.
 

turbobrick240

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So what kind of hybrid will the gen2 roadster with cold gas thrusters be? RAHEV- rocket assisted hybrid electric vehicle? :)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I figured by the replies you gents weren't actually interested in ever owning one of these foo-foo plugins anyways, amirite? ;)
If the ID.3 makes it here I'd give it a serious look. The Crozz is much less attractive to me. Not a CUV or SUV person. The ID.3 would be great for my daily use, save the diesels for road trips.
 

bl00tdi

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Exactly. There's no need to try to create categories just so we can pigeonhole the cars into them. The Volt, i3 and Prius were designed in the wild-west days of hybrids and companies were throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick.

To me, hybrids are cars with mixed power sources. Could be:
- Classic Prius style load leveling with tiny battery
- Same but with larger battery that can be plugged in for more BEV mode (Fusion, Pacifica)
- Same but no ICE operation in BEV mode (typical REX: Volt and i3)
- ICE charges battery only, or powers wheels. I don't care.
- other combinations with even subtler distinctions (i8 maybe)
I can go along with this for the most part.

No, diesel-electric locomotives aren't hybrids. To me, if they had a battery for load leveling then they would be.
The current generally accepted definition of series hybrid power does not explicitly require an energy storage mechanism. It only requires that two different energy sources be linked but that only one is mechanically connected to the output.
 

bl00tdi

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If the ID.3 makes it here I'd give it a serious look. The Crozz is much less attractive to me. Not a CUV or SUV person. The ID.3 would be great for my daily use, save the diesels for road trips.
I agree, the ID.3 is a much better looking vehicle. Hatch practicality along with RWD? Yes please!
 

AntonLargiader

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The current generally accepted definition of series hybrid power does not explicitly require an energy storage mechanism. It only requires that two different energy sources be linked but that only one is mechanically connected to the output.
Whose definition? And to me, there's only one source of power there (not talking about third rail or overhead). The electric part is just a transmission.
 

bl00tdi

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Yeah, there is a direct mechanical linkage via planetary gears of the Volt's ICE to the transaxle. I believe it is single speed and only used at higher speeds.
Just saw this and wanted to comment. You are correct in that the ICE can propel the car via planetary ring gear, but it is not considered a direct linkage per se. Based on how these gear sets work, spinning the ring gear alone doesn't actually produce an output. Unless the sun gear is fixed in place or at least slowed, it will just spin backwards with zero relative movement of the planetary gears/carrier. So one of the the motors (via the sun gear) must produce a very slight output in order for there to be a reactionary force to send to the diff. Per a GM engineer that I've heard speak on it specifically, it's considered an indirect link (because electric power is required) but with zero slippage. It can be used at roadway speeds as well, as low as 35MPH or so from what I've witnessed (even lower speed on the Gen 2 volt). Finally yes, there is a single ratio from ICE to ring gear, however the sun gear speed can be varied essentially making the output ratio continuously variable. Hope that helps.
 

bl00tdi

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Whose definition?
Since you have the more restrictive definition, shouldn't you be telling me?:)

Using your definition, a battery wouldn't actually make it a hybrid vehicle either, since all the energy stored in the battery would have come from the ICE versus being put to immediate use. No difference really as the electric motors don't care where the electricity came from; electrons are electrons.

And to me, there's only one source of power there (not talking about third rail or overhead). The electric part is just a transmission.
Two sources of power (motive force):

ICE crankshaft --> generator
Traction motor --> wheels

The term "series" implies one is dependent on the other, in-line. Why is it considered hybrid power? Because two separate motors (doing work) are causing things to turn, using different energy sources (diesel vs electricity). Why serial? Because the first source of power sends energy down-line but is not mechanically linked to the output. Don't confuse how "hybrid power" is implemented in today's vehicles (using batteries) with basic operating principles.

Independent output from two power sources (what you're probably thinking of) is known as parallel and is not what I'm referring to.

The entire idea behind any serial hybrid system is that different types of motors are most efficient at different speeds and loads. Decoupling them can allow for more efficient use of energy on either end. Boats, trains, and submarines used this concept LONG before mainstream use in the automobile. Energy storage may allow for even greater efficiency by providing power in parallel and/or allowing the ICE to shut off, but is not a necessary component for series operation. This does not have as big a benefit on locomotives since load is relatively constant on the diesel ICE and stops are not nearly as frequent.
 

turbobrick240

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It's still a direct mechanical linkage, imo. The electric drive is just acting as a clutch. The torque from the ICE is going directly to the wheels when in direct drive mode. Sort of like how a dsg trans won't function without a working electronic mechatronix unit, yet the mechanical drive itself is still direct. The GM engineers were probably told that they needed to "spin" the ICE as range extender not a direct means of propulsion. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if ICE never appears in the marketing propaganda.

The gen2 Volt apparently only operates in parallel mode, no more series mode. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-volt-powertrain-how-it-works-in-electric-hybrid-modes

https://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?286769-ICE-Direct-Drive&amp=1
 
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AntonLargiader

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Since you have the more restrictive definition, shouldn't you be telling me?:)
OK, then why don't you accept my definition? :)

In a traditional DE loco the electrical part simply transfers power from the engine to the wheels, same as a fluid coupling might (without being considered a hybrid, blended hydro/turbine power system).
 

bl00tdi

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OK, then why don't you accept my definition? :)
In a traditional DE loco the electrical part simply transfers power from the engine to the wheels, same as a fluid coupling might (without being considered a hybrid, blended hydro/turbine power system).
I'll answer with my own question. :)

Just so we're speaking the same language, how would you define a series hybrid powertrain?
 

AntonLargiader

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I'm actually not really into defining this stuff, as I mentioned in a previous post. I just care if what it does is appealing to me. But in the context of actual cars that are part of the general discussion of hybrids, series (to me) would be a engine -> battery <-> wheel/motor sort of thing.

Skid loaders with hydrostatic drives wouldn't count as hybrids to me even if they have a hydraulic system between the engine and wheels. Still one power source in effect all the time. Same with DE locomotives and their electrical part.

Since we're talking cars here, hybrid has a specific, relevant meaning that implies mixed energy sources. Other industries may use the term differently in their own relevant way. If skid loader people, or locomotive people, consider those machines hybrids because they have those features rather than being more directly mechanically coupled, good for them. But it's not relevant to automotive hybrid discussion. Plant people talk about hybrids and it REALLY has nothing to do with automotive hybrids.
 

bl00tdi

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It's still a direct mechanical linkage, imo. The electric drive is just acting as a clutch. The torque from the ICE is going directly to the wheels when in direct drive mode. Sort of like how a dsg trans won't function without a working electronic mechatronix unit, yet the mechanical drive itself is still direct.
The energy required to brake the freewheeling sun gear has to come from somewhere. Part of the torque from the ICE will be absorbed by MGB (splined to sun gear), which requires MGA (driven by the ICE) to send electricity to the battery to replace it. This loss is proof of the indirect link. Like everything else in mass-produced automobiles, the design is a series of compromises.

The GM engineers were probably told that they needed to "spin" the ICE as range extender not a direct means of propulsion. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if ICE never appears in the marketing propaganda.
They mentioned the ICE plenty, but I (and others) believe that GM somewhat obscured the operation of the trans for competitive advantage.

The gen2 Volt apparently only operates in parallel mode, no more series mode. https://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?286769-ICE-Direct-Drive&amp=1
Interesting. :cool:I'd like to do a deeper dive on the Gen 2's operation.
 

bl00tdi

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I'm actually not really into defining this stuff, as I mentioned in a previous post. I just care if what it does is appealing to me. But in the context of actual cars that are part of the general discussion of hybrids, series (to me) would be a engine -> battery <-> wheel/motor sort of thing.
Thanks.

As long as the battery in your description receives its charge from the ICE (and not the grid) there is still technically only one power source. This is self-contradictory as one power source would prevent it from being a hybrid, in your words. So which is it?
 

bl00tdi

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If anyone else is unclear about what a power source is and why a DE locomotive is different, I'll continue this.
Honestly the only thing that is unclear here is why a battery makes a difference when talking about energy conversion from mechanical to electrical. :eek:
 

turbobrick240

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I'm actually not really into defining this stuff, as I mentioned in a previous post. I just care if what it does is appealing to me. But in the context of actual cars that are part of the general discussion of hybrids, series (to me) would be a engine -> battery <-> wheel/motor sort of thing.

Skid loaders with hydrostatic drives wouldn't count as hybrids to me even if they have a hydraulic system between the engine and wheels. Still one power source in effect all the time. Same with DE locomotives and their electrical part.

Since we're talking cars here, hybrid has a specific, relevant meaning that implies mixed energy sources. Other industries may use the term differently in their own relevant way. If skid loader people, or locomotive people, consider those machines hybrids because they have those features rather than being more directly mechanically coupled, good for them. But it's not relevant to automotive hybrid discussion. Plant people talk about hybrids and it REALLY has nothing to do with automotive hybrids.

I see where you're coming from, but that's not the generally accepted definition of a hybrid powertrain. Take the first gen Prius for example. It gets all of its propulsion from gasoline. Well, a small amount from regen. braking, but it requires gas to get moving. Few people would argue that those cars aren't hybrids.
 

AntonLargiader

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I don't think we disagree. The battery is a separate power source, even if it ultimately gets its power from the ICE. The whole point of that car (and many others) is that the battery sometimes absorbs energy and sometimes supplies energy. The power output is a blend of the two power sources. Classic load-leveling hybrid. But you can't do that without a battery or other source (flywheel, compressed fluid, etc.).

The current generally accepted definition of series hybrid power does not explicitly require an energy storage mechanism. It only requires that two different energy sources be linked but that only one is mechanically connected to the output.
Where is this definition, who believes it, and where are the hybrids (relevant to this thread, so electric) that don't have an energy storage mechanism? I don't think it's useful to hypothesize about what some nonexistent battery-less pseudo hybrid would be called. Tell me what car you're talking about and I'll think about what I'd call it.
 

AntonLargiader

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WRT the post that maybe just got retracted: I think you are WAY more into the micro-sub-definitions than I am. I already said they're largely pointless, and I think drivetrains like the Pacifica has only make it harder to try to separate the series and the parallel. You asked what I thought a series hybrid would be and I said, "Sort of like this." Honestly, I don't care more than that about the subcategories.

I never said only one output. I said, and still say, power source. At any given point in time, the vehicle is powered by ICE, battery, or both. How the power makes the last step is getting murkier every year and it's sounds like more of a software setting than anything else these days.

The i3 being a hybrid only because it has electricity between the engine and the wheel, and not because it has a battery... do you actually believe that definition would be at all useful in this context? That would be 1:1 ICE power at every moment in time. Just like a hydrostatic skid loader or DE loco. Do you think hydrostatic skid loaders are hybrids in a context that's relevant to this subject? Cars with non-lockup torque converters? And again, where are the batteryless hybrid-electric cars that make any of this relevant?
 

bl00tdi

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WRT the post that maybe just got retracted: I think you are WAY more into the micro-sub-definitions than I am. I already said they're largely pointless, and I think drivetrains like the Pacifica has only make it harder to try to separate the series and the parallel. You asked what I thought a series hybrid would be and I said, "Sort of like this." Honestly, I don't care more than that about the subcategories.
Hey man, you're the one that offered up a critique of my comparison. I didn't say they were exactly alike regarding automotive hybrids or immediately relevant but the conversion of ICE power to electrical power in series technically made it a hybrid powerplant. I stand by that, and so do generally accepted definitions of series hybrids. (The Pacifica is a power-split hybrid in charge-sustaining mode, like most others btw.)

Decent descriptions here:

https://www.ases.org/hybrid-cars-parallel-vs-series/ (ignore the Volt misinfo)
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/al...s hybrid, the,battery or the engine/generator


I never said only one output. I said, and still say, power source. At any given point in time, the vehicle is powered by ICE, battery, or both. How the power makes the last step is getting murkier every year and it's sounds like more of a software setting than anything else these days.
The law of conservation of energy disagrees with you. A battery is not a separate power source unless it comes from the grid, or solar, or hamster wheel. You're talking yourself into a corner here on this point. If you follow this line of thinking logically and in accordance with physics, only plugins can be hybrids.

(BTW, I mispoke regarding the two energy sources in a DE locomotive and rescind that point moving forward. You are correct that there is only one energy source with a conversion in series that allows it to be more efficient.)

The i3 being a hybrid only because it has electricity between the engine and the wheel, and not because it has a battery... do you actually believe that definition would be at all useful in this context? That would be 1:1 ICE power at every moment in time.
In the i3, again, the battery stops being a separate "power source" when it reaches minimum state of charge, same as the Volt. All the charge it receives thereafter is gas-powered, period, whether through regen braking or excess generator output. In this context, the battery is simply an energy store after conversion to electricity, not a source. Again, I cite the law of conservation of energy. Secondly, a battery buffer is not necessary if the ICE is sufficiently powerful (D-E locomotives/ships etc). Which leads me to my third point; hybrids have batteries because engines can be downsized, use less powerful but more efficient Atkinson cycles, and ultimately be shut off more often. They're obviously helpful with regards to efficiency as there are even locomotives and ships coming down the line with them onboard, but not because they're essential to energy conversion. Just capturing more of the chemical energy in fuel that would otherwise be lost to heat.

Cars with non-lockup torque converters?
A fluid coupling is still mechanical in nature whose purpose is to transfer energy, not convert it. This is a poor example. Energy conversion from one form to another in series is what makes a powerplant a (edit: series) hybrid.


Just like a hydrostatic skid loader or DE loco. Do you think hydrostatic skid loaders are hybrids in a context that's relevant to this subject?
Sure, why not.


The goalposts seem to be moving for the sake of "winning". First, my comparison was incorrect. Then it became irrelevant because such battery-less hybrid cars don't exist and/or difference industries don't use these terms, or that definitions don't really matter all that much. I might agree with you there regarding the lack of relevance to the current discussion and I really didn't mean for the thread to be derailed, but the comparisons are valid. I never once said that the rail or any other industry used the term hybrid, just that the way they operate are similar enough to draw parallels.
 
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turbobrick240

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I think we can all agree that the Volt was/is a very good PHEV for it's time. I personally have no problem including the PHEVs in the EV category just so long as they are also differentiated from BEVs. This conversation has sparked a bit of interest in the Volt for me. I'm considering buying one as an interim vehicle until the full BEVs with good range (Tesla) drop a bit more in price.
 

AntonLargiader

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We like the '13 we drive (we have it for half of the year). With the 240V charger, it recharges pretty quickly so if you do 25 miles of errands in the morning you will have full 40 mile range again in the afternoon. The overall concept works really well to demonstrate that the vast majority of one's driving fits into a 40 mile charge (which I think was the car's mission).

It has plenty of annoying stuff.

The 120V charging is a PITA; it always defaults to 9A and you need to set it back to 12A Every. Single. Time. Can't go over 12A, but 240V defaults to 12A.

The car loves to blow its horn. Honks when you plug it in; nothing you can do about it. Wants to honk if you leave the key in and for a few other reasons but you can turn them off in preferences.

Lower the front and rear windows and you get a big wuh-wuh-wuh resonance in the car over about 30 MPH. Worse than any other car I've driven.

Radio is OK. Would be nice if it would just skip XM if you don't have it, but it keeps going to XM and then not finding anything when you cycle through sources.

Overall it would be really nice if they hadn't designed it to pretend to be a regular automatic car. Regen is not strong enough for one-pedal driving but if you leave it in L it's not bad.

Long windshield. Hard to see the front of the car.

So yeah, it has its quirks but so did the i3.
 

bl00tdi

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I think we can all agree that the Volt was/is a very good PHEV for it's time. I personally have no problem including the PHEVs in the EV category just so long as they are also differentiated from BEVs. This conversation has sparked a bit of interest in the Volt for me. I'm considering buying one as an interim vehicle until the full BEVs with good range (Tesla) drop a bit more in price.
I would agree. It's a great transitional car that bridges the gap well. It does have its quirks and things to look out for, but it's been solid for the year that I've owned it. I regularly beat the EPA ratings on EV range, particularly on local roads (42+ miles with a/c blasting). At 240V it charges at a rate of about 10 miles range per hour so like AntonLargiader said opportunity charging in between short trips is definitely an option. It would have been way too expensive for me brand new, but it's a buyer's market now particularly for the Gen 1, which I have and am a big fan of. I love getting into it every day.

The big knock on it versus the competition at the time was it's "low" ICE MPG plus requiring premium fuel. For most people's drive cycles though, the ICE should rarely come on. Even when it does come on, I never get under 36 MPG at the worst and eclipse 40 MPG at the best. Not great compared to more purpose-built motors that use the Atkinson cycle or small diesels, but not bad for a early 2010's port-injected motor in a 3800 lbs car, either. Come to think of it, it's comparable to my old '06 TDI.

For your reference, cost per charge using my local utility company's rates and some rough math is about $1.13 per full battery charge on my 2014 (using 10.3 KWh useful capacity rounded up to 12KWh to run pumps/fans/ac compressor as needed during charging).

The R&D money was obviously spent on the hybrid powertrain and supporting software (10 million lines of code to run it all compared to the F-22 Raptor's 1.7 million). The battery packs are liquid cooled and only use about 65-70% of overall capacity to hedge against degradation. I hear the Gen 2's improved on a lot of things but I may skip it all together and look elsewhere down the line. But you should definitely check one out for yourself either way!
 

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We're talking semantics, and definition. The Volt is, was, and always has been, a plug in hybrid. A pretty decent one, once you get past the GM rental car interior bits. The i3 is not. Not in anyone's "normal" definition of a "hybrid", which is the ability to operate the vehicle by electric or fuel directly, be it in series or parallel. The i3 is unique in that it is, to my knowledge, the only EV with [the option of] a standalone generator carried onboard. And they (BMW) purposely nerfed the size of the fuel tank specifically to discourage people from just driving it around with the generator running flat out to keep the batteries topped up enough to operate the car. In Europe, you can get a larger fuel tank for them supposedly. 3.5 gal instead of 2.1 or something like that.
I have a coworker that picked up a used i3 for a song and a dance. His explanation is that software limits the amount of fuel you can put in here versus Europe. You need something like a vag-com to adjust the software so you can use the full tank.
 

AntonLargiader

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10 million lines of code and they couldn't give us an option for the stupid plug-in honk?!?! :)


The reason this is annoying to me is that when you plug the car in you are literally staring through the windshield at the charging light. It's super easy to get confirmation of charging without the horn.
 

AntonLargiader

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I have a coworker that picked up a used i3 for a song and a dance. His explanation is that software limits the amount of fuel you can put in here versus Europe. You need something like a vag-com to adjust the software so you can use the full tank.

As I understand it, to meet some California requirements for a certain EV classification the gas range had to be less than the electric range, so they software-disabled the last 0.2 gallons or so. Many i3 owners reflashed the software to get that back, as well as increasing the HSOC and (on later models) adding CarPlay which BMW wanted to rent you on a subscription basis!


There is a FB group of i3 owners and you can get a LOT of info there. The i3 is a fun car.
 

kjclow

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I got to drive his once. It was fun but would take getting used driving it compared to my jsw.
 

AntonLargiader

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I wrote up a pretty long comment list on the i3 after we had it. I found it on my phone. This was written in 2016 on a maybe 2014 i3.


===============



Let me start by saying this is a completely subjective assessment. I don’t follow the car industry or trends. I know what I like and that’s about it.

Running gear:
The turning radius is just awesome. This is important to me; in town I’d rather U-turn than K-turn. This is one of very few cars that can U-turn out of (or into) a parking space.
The suspension is pretty good. Front to rear balance seems to be set well for lower speeds, yet I never felt any imbalance at higher speeds. Comfortable but without much body roll for a tall car.
The steering was disappointing - it felt stiff and lacked feedback. To me it is too powerful; a car this size with such narrow tires shouldn’t need much help. Being used to more direct steering, I tend to drive with a very light touch so the i3 wandered a bit.
Brakes seem fine (no surprise) but of course they are rarely needed; the regeneration is so good.
I like the big wheels. They roll nicely over rougher surfaces.

Running gear overall: Very nice, but I’d expect no less from BMW. They could have another look at the steering, though.

Body configuration:
I’m personally not a fan of the super-long windshield. I’ve experienced that in a Prius and I think I’m just used to seeing a hood that demarks the end of the car. Not a design deficiency; just not my preference.
The A-pillars are very thick. This may be due to the air bags but I think there are cars with A-pillar airbags without such thick pillars. They did frequently block the view in gentle curves.
Small nit: on the front doors, the inside opening handle isn’t directly next to the grab handle. You open the door with one handle and then have to find the grab handle in an unintuitive place.
Rear windows not going down; that’s a shame. We don’t roll ours down very much but from time to time it’s nice especially in town. Vivien asks for this. :) And I am one of those few people who like and use sunroofs; I hear that they are making a comeback in 2016.
A rear-facing child seat is usable with relatively great difficulty. I think we would simply abandon the idea of rear-facing with this car but it is basically required up to a certain age. The rear-seat legroom is barely enough for a kid in a car seat (although paradoxically it is enough for an adult due to the more complete knee bending).
Nearly-flat floor is very nice!

Body overall: no show-stoppers but the fat A-pillar is a bit annoying.

Interior:
The seat heaters are fantastic. They heat up quickly and then 1/3 power is enough.
While I’m sure the wood trim would be pleasant to look at, we didn’t object to anything in the base trim.
Minor nit: The location and action of the start/stop button and the forward/reverse paddle never felt quite right. Totally not a big deal but I’d expect to see this change at the facelift. Some of it might be that the paddle functions too much like a traditional PRNDL control where I would normally pull back to go forward and push forward for reverse. I’d get used to it pretty quickly.
Rear storage as not as bad as it seemed at first. Our jogging stroller fit in there folded normally, and fit with a high chair if the wheels were taken off. There wasn’t room for anything else at that point, but that’s OK.

Interior overall: nice with some quirks. I’d probably learn to deal with iDrive although I am really hoping for a simpler system in my next car.

The drivetrain was as good as I expected (I’d already driven a Model S for an hour or so, and had a pretty good idea what the Range Extender would be like). Smooth, quiet, just wonderful. Fully charged I never saw even 70 miles predicted, though. But while I have a hard time believing that it’s the fastest BMW zero-to-forty, it’s certainly quick enough. I like the drivetrain but on this car the range is a bit less than advertised. Could be because of the colder weather, and the fact that the REX version uses resistance heating rather than a heat pump.

I’m very glad that the enthusiast base has figured out how to reprogram some aspects of the car’s behavior. Door locking and unlocking, alarm chirping on both arming and disarming, the spaceship sound when the car powers up… these are just a few examples of things that should be easily customized by the owner. A far as I know, alarm chirps are illegal in Germany so I don’t see why we have to endure them. For locking, my preference is that if I lock the car it should be locked, and otherwise it should not be. Fortunately I can (at least for now) change these aspects.

I know iDrive has spawned plenty of discussion and that BMW is deeply committed to it. Still, I think there is a lot of room for improvement there; the graphic decorations add nothing to the functionality except distraction and they could be replaced with some elements that indicate where you are in the control menu tree. Nothing I couldn’t get used to, but when I see moving graphics I expect them to indicate something meaningful, but these don’t.

The i3 linked with my phone easily enough, but every time I sat down I needed to go through several menu items before I could get to the music playlists on my phone. It’s easier to just select the music on the phone itself, which pretty well makes the point that the in-dash stuff isn’t adding anything useful. I didn’t use the navigation, but proprietary systems like this tend to get outdated. My in-laws experienced this on a recent BMW where even after an expensive update the maps were still wrong and the navigation was bad. Smartphone-based maps and music are here in the form of CarPlay and Android Auto; it’s a much more maintainable approach.
 

Jetta_Pilot

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Location
West Hill, Ont.
TDI
2015 Passat Highline TDI Candy White (SEL Premium) long gone 2002 Jetta TDI
I just watched an online Tesla 3 where the guy did 250 miles in over 7 hours with two stops to recharge along the way. In addition the EV car cold not use the fastest route since there are no recharging facilities.:mad:

I should also add that that was in the winter and the guy kept the heat in the car to barely 60 degF and wore a winter coat to keep warm, that really sucks !!!
Same trip in a regular car would be just 4 hours using the fastest route with no filling up along the way !!!!


No EV for me ever !!!!
 
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