NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Derrel H Green

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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
The Truth

The big unknown is if VW is properly documenting and forwarding all HPFP failures to NHTSA.
Their initial claim was that "nearly all" HPFP failures were caused by mis-fueling. [Yeah right!]
That's clearly untrue based on the newer documentation.
:)

Surely we cannot believe that VW would be 'coming clean' and telling the truth now would we? :confused: :confused: :confused:

:D

D
 

beartooth91

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This whole deal doesn't help in the decision making process of whether or not to start using Stanadyne in my new '11.
Let's see....additive increases lubricity which is good for the longevity of the HPFP. But, if my HPFP were to be one of the failures and VW found out I was using an additive.......well you get the picture.
I guess the smart play would be to not use an additive until after the warranty period (not sure whether the HPFP is covered under the bumper to bumper or power train?)?
 
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tuan209

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This whole deal doesn't help in the decision making process of whether or not to start using Stanadyne in my new '11.
Let's see....additive increases lubricity which is good for the longevity of the HPFP. But, if my HPFP were to be one of the failures and VW found out I was using an additive.......well you get the picture.
I guess the smart play would be to not use an additive until after the warranty period (not sure whether the HPFP is covered under the bumper to bumper or power train?)?
There is no way the dealer or VW would be able to prove that you used any kind of additive. Most gas stations use different kinds of additive in their gas....
 

tico27464

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This whole deal doesn't help in the decision making process of whether or not to start using Stanadyne in my new '11.
Let's see....additive increases lubricity which is good for the longevity of the HPFP. But, if my HPFP were to be one of the failures and VW found out I was using an additive.......well you get the picture.
I guess the smart play would be to not use an additive until after the warranty period (not sure whether the HPFP is covered under the bumper to bumper or power train?)?
A similar dilemma is, do you use an additive now, protecting the HPFP (to whatever degree) and increase the likelihood that it will last, but perhaps only past the 60k/5yr point, or do you *not* use an additive, increasing the likelihood that it will grenade on you, but hopefully during the warranty period? (And hope that in the meantime VW comes up with a durable fix before that happens?)

btw if it helps one way or another in your decision, VW did tell me--in writing--that the HPFP was covered under the powertrain warranty, as would be any 'collateral damage'...

~T
 

madmako

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Volkswagen OEM Diesel Fuel Additive

A similar dilemma is, do you use an additive now, protecting the HPFP (to whatever degree) and increase the likelihood that it will last, but perhaps only past the 60k/5yr point, or do you *not* use an additive, increasing the likelihood that it will grenade on you, but hopefully during the warranty period? (And hope that in the meantime VW comes up with a durable fix before that happens?)

btw if it helps one way or another in your decision, VW did tell me--in writing--that the HPFP was covered under the powertrain warranty, as would be any 'collateral damage'...

~T
The entire discussion of the use of additives is a non sequitur. In fact, VoA does support the use of a diesel fuel additive. Please refer to Volkswagen PN# ZVW 340-002 which consists of four 8oz bottles of Stanadyne Performance Formula.
 

Derrel H Green

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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Using Additives

A similar dilemma is, do you use an additive now, protecting the HPFP (to whatever degree) and increase the likelihood that it will last, but perhaps only past the 60k/5yr point, or do you *not* use an additive, increasing the likelihood that it will grenade on you, but hopefully during the warranty period?
(And hope that in the meantime VW comes up with a durable fix before that happens?)

BTW, if it helps one way or another in your decision, VW did tell me--in writing--that the
HPFP was covered under the powertrain warranty, as would be any 'collateral damage'...

~T
:)

My take on all this is that I want my original HPFP to last and not
to have some dealer swapping mine out either sooner or later.
To help that to happen, I believe in doing whatever I am able to do to
help my HPFP mating surfaces to properly 'wear-in' to each other.

If you do not use any additive now when the vehicle is new, why bother later on?
After all, by then, the pump will either be broken in well and the
various parts well mated to each other, or they will have failed!
Do it now: The sooner the better.

There is no way that VW or anyone else can determine if you
or anyone else has been using any additives of any kind.
BTW, all suppliers of D2 add their own additives, but the deal is,
we do not know if what they add do add is sufficient.
Error on the side of caution and add sometime, anything to help protect your HPFP. :cool:

:D

D
 
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timwagon

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The entire discussion of the use of additives is a non sequitur. In fact, VoA does support the use of a diesel fuel additive. Please refer to Volkswagen PN# ZVW 340-002 which consists of four 8oz bottles of Stanadyne Performance Formula.
For the latest generation of TDI engines the use of an additive is officially "not recommended" by VW.

Note that additives are not "prohibited", just "not recommended".

You'll find this in your owner's manual for any 2009+ CR TDI model.
 

madmako

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"Note that additives are not "prohibited", just "not recommended".

Are you suggesting the Volkswagen diesel fuel treatment is intended for pre-2009 CR TDI's or other VW diesel vehicles? If so, I find that a bit peculiar. Before picking up my JSW, I asked the parts counter guy for VW diesel treatment and he didn't even bother to look it up. He knew exactly where to go in the parts room. Somebody other than me must be using the stuff on a consistent basis.
 

JSWTDI09

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"Note that additives are not "prohibited", just "not recommended".
VW does not recommend additives, because they are not willing to take the risk of people using bad additives nor are they are willing to recommend any particular additives. Recommending any particular additive would require either testing many additives (expensive) or possibly getting paid by some additive maker for their endorsement. Also admitting that an additive is needed would imply that their engines are not well suited to our standard D2 fuel (this may well be true, but VW will never admit it). It's all about VW's CYA attitude. It has absolutely nothing to do with what is best for our cars. VW just hopes that the majority of our HPFPs will outlast the warranty and they will make money.

Always remember that no car manufacturer (VW, Ford, Chrysler, Daimler Benz, etc.) puts our needs first. They are all in the business of making a profit - first and foremost. Only you (and I) put our needs first. You cannot count on a car maker to do this for us. Just my opinion.

Have Fun!

Don
 
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Plus 3 Golfer

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"Note that additives are not "prohibited", just "not recommended".

Are you suggesting the Volkswagen diesel fuel treatment is intended for pre-2009 CR TDI's or other VW diesel vehicles? If so, I find that a bit peculiar. Before picking up my JSW, I asked the parts counter guy for VW diesel treatment and he didn't even bother to look it up. He knew exactly where to go in the parts room. Somebody other than me must be using the stuff on a consistent basis.
Again, this has been beat to death.

VWoA does not recommend additives in the CR TDI. The Stanadyne additives that dealers sell are not recommended for the CR engines by VWoA. If you don't believe it, send an email, like I did, to VW Customer Care and ask.;)

The parts guy simply has no clue. Yes, the Stanadyne additives are intended for older VW diesels to help with particular issues such as cold weather starting.
 

timwagon

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"Note that additives are not "prohibited", just "not recommended".

Are you suggesting the Volkswagen diesel fuel treatment is intended for pre-2009 CR TDI's or other VW diesel vehicles? If so, I find that a bit peculiar. Before picking up my JSW, I asked the parts counter guy for VW diesel treatment and he didn't even bother to look it up. He knew exactly where to go in the parts room. Somebody other than me must be using the stuff on a consistent basis.
I'm not suggesting anything. It's a fact that VW does not recomend any fuel additives for the 2009+ TDI engines.
 
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Derrel H Green

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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
VW told him to add biodiesel

:)

And yet, a couple of years ago when the editor of PM magazine had VW's
test mule suffer a complete HPFP failure (the first one I had heard about)
after it was repaired at SM VW, someone from VW told Ben Stewart to
go to the yacht harbor in Playa del Rey and get some biodiesel
and add it to the tank of that test car.

Hearsay . . Yes, but that is what the man told me. Take it for what it is worth.
This tells me that VW knew then what was causing those earlier HPFPs to fail and they
knew what would help the pumps to survive. But they never did admit to that in writing. :(

:D

D
 

thebigarniedog

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:)

And yet, a couple of years ago when the editor of PM magazine had VW's
test mule suffer a complete HPFP failure (the first one I had heard about)
after it was repaired at SM VW, someone from VW told Ben Stewart to
go to the yacht harbor in Playa del Rey and get some biodiesel
and add it to the tank of that test car.

A violation of Star Fleet Regulations . . Yes, but that is what the man told me. Take it for what it is worth.
This tells me that VW knew then what was causing those earlier HPFPs to fail and they
knew what would help the pumps to survive. But they never did admit to that in writing. :(

:D

D
Fixed it for ya .......
 

Derrel H Green

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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
:)

I see.

Believe whatever you like!

I do know what Ben Stewart told me that day when I spoke to him at his office at PM.

Have a nice day. ;)

:D

D
 

DeeGee

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2000 Golf 5-Spd.
ODI document Analysis

If I read the ODI documents correctly only 191 TDIs experienced an HPFP failure according to the VW letter to the ODI dated 4-18-11 http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2011/EA/INRL-EA11003-45601P.pdf.

That same letter shows that 139,616 TDIs were produced and sold up to that same reporting date. So that's 192 failures out of 139,616 TDIs. These cars have been produced for 167 weeks (as of 4-18-2011). So the failure rate is 1.14 cars per week.

The 191 failures are documented with the remaining files on the ODI website.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/documentList.do?docId=EA11003&docType=INV&fromPublic=true. Specifically the 45603P.xlsx spreadsheet.

The last 16 pages of the 45604.pdf shows the Class Action Complaint. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2011/EA/INRD-EA11003-45604P.pdf
 

birkie

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The 191 failures are documented with the remaining files on the ODI website.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/documentList.do?docId=EA11003&docType=INV&fromPublic=true. Specifically the 45603P.xlsx spreadsheet.
Hmm, I'm not in any of the failure/warranty files. My pump failed in last Dec. '09, and I notified the NHTSA in '10. (I'm a 3VWPL81K29MXXXXXX). I received a call from an inspector last month: they requested a copy of my warranty invoice, which I sent the next day.

So, while this report may represent "Failures reported by Volkswagen for period X", my data point makes it clear that it does not represent "Total number of failures in period X". The NHTSA has data on failures that are not on that list.
 

DeeGee

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Hmm, I'm not in any of the failure/warranty files. My pump failed in last Dec. '09, and I notified the NHTSA in '10. (I'm a 3VWPL81K29MXXXXXX). I received a call from an inspector last month: they requested a copy of my warranty invoice, which I sent the next day.

So, while this report may represent "Failures reported by Volkswagen for period X", my data point makes it clear that it does not represent "Total number of failures in period X". The NHTSA has data on failures that are not on that list.
Very Interesting. I didn't find your claim either. I did find your car on the 45602P.xlsx production data spreadsheet, line # 32303.

I read your failure post...maybe VW didn't classify your repair as an HPFP failure...perhaps injector failure. Just speculating as to why not on the list.
 
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GTIDan

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Or you could look at it as a 'non' issue. Surely 0.001375 percent (192/139616) means the sky is not falling. Lets move on.

And how many of those have been 'clearly' identified as fueling issues? I suspect in the end the whole deal will be dropped by NTHSA. JMHO :)
 

beartooth91

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If I read the ODI documents correctly only 191 TDIs experienced an HPFP failure according to the VW letter to the ODI dated 4-18-11 http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2011/EA/INRL-EA11003-45601P.pdf.

That same letter shows that 139,616 TDIs were produced and sold up to that same reporting date. So that's 192 failures out of 139,616 TDIs. These cars have been produced for 167 weeks (as of 4-18-2011). So the failure rate is 1.14 cars per week.

The 191 failures are documented with the remaining files on the ODI website.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/documentList.do?docId=EA11003&docType=INV&fromPublic=true. Specifically the 45603P.xlsx spreadsheet.

The last 16 pages of the 45604.pdf shows the Class Action Complaint. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2011/EA/INRD-EA11003-45604P.pdf
And, how exactly does one open the above spreadsheets? I'm trying to do it, with Excel, and it complains about it being an xml document and all I get is a table of formatting options.
 

DeeGee

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Or you could look at it as a 'non' issue. Surely 0.001375 percent (192/139616) means the sky is not falling. Lets move on.

And how many of those have been 'clearly' identified as fueling issues? I suspect in the end the whole deal will be dropped by NTHSA. JMHO :)
Dan, I'm starting to feel the same way. The percentage is actually 0.138 % (you forgot to multiply by 100)...or 1 in ever 700.

Even if the actual number is triple the reported number of HPFP failures that is still a tiny percentage. 3 times that amount is still 0.41% of all TDIs produced...or appx 1 in every 250.

1 in 700 is not likely and even the 1 in 250 number I can live with.
 

birkie

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I read your failure post...maybe VW didn't classify your repair as an HPFP failure...perhaps injector failure. Just speculating as to why not on the list.
I'm not sure. In my case, only two parts were replaced: one of the hard fuel lines/pipes, and the high-pressure pump. There was no sign of metal fragments or contamination, so they didn't replace everything else. It took them some time to figure out it was the pump.
 

bhtooefr

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And, how exactly does one open the above spreadsheets? I'm trying to do it, with Excel, and it complains about it being an xml document and all I get is a table of formatting options.
If you're running Excel XP, v. X, 2003, or 2004, you need to install the appropriate Office Open XML converter:

For Office XP or 2003: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...70-3ae9-4aee-8f43-c6bb74cd1466&displaylang=en

For Office v. X or 2004: http://www.microsoft.com/mac/downlo...d=0C323A12-6385-4666-AD39-A9516A8EDA14#viewer
 

beartooth91

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If you're running Excel XP, v. X, 2003, or 2004, you need to install the appropriate Office Open XML converter:

For Office XP or 2003: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...70-3ae9-4aee-8f43-c6bb74cd1466&displaylang=en

For Office v. X or 2004: http://www.microsoft.com/mac/downlo...d=0C323A12-6385-4666-AD39-A9516A8EDA14#viewer
Well, I'm missing something as I'm running Office 2007 and Win 7. A quick search doesn't show much in the way of xml converters for Office 2007.
 

Mike_V

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Even if the actual number is triple the reported number of HPFP failures that is still a tiny percentage. 3 times that amount is still 0.41% of all TDIs produced...or appx 1 in every 250.

1 in 700 is not likely and even the 1 in 250 number I can live with.
Even a small number can be a serious problem when considering a safety issue. If instead of "fuel pump failure" the problem was "car explodes into fireball" clearly 1 in 700 would not be an acceptable rate! As others have said earlier in the thread, if you're the one stranded in the middle of a busy freeway when your HPFP dies, the fact that your predicament was unlikely won't do you much good.

Leaving the safety aspect aside, from a cost-of-ownership point of view the information that seems most important is the expected likelihood of a failure over the lifetime of the vehicle. Because the cars are so new, these data just don't exist - and just because failures are relatively infrequent now doesn't mean they won't become more frequent as the cars age (e.g. will this be like the 01M auto tranny failures in Mk4s).

Has anyone who has been going through the full reports been tallying up some of the data therein? It would be very interesting to see the failure count broken down by model year, vehicle type, and misfuelling diagnosis, but don't have the time to go through it all myself.
 

DeeGee

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Even a small number can be a serious problem when considering a safety issue. If instead of "fuel pump failure" the problem was "car explodes into fireball" clearly 1 in 700 would not be an acceptable rate! As others have said earlier in the thread, if you're the one stranded in the middle of a busy freeway when your HPFP dies, the fact that your predicament was unlikely won't do you much good.

Leaving the safety aspect aside, from a cost-of-ownership point of view the information that seems most important is the expected likelihood of a failure over the lifetime of the vehicle. Because the cars are so new, these data just don't exist - and just because failures are relatively infrequent now doesn't mean they won't become more frequent as the cars age (e.g. will this be like the 01M auto tranny failures in Mk4s).

Has anyone who has been going through the full reports been tallying up some of the data therein? It would be very interesting to see the failure count broken down by model year, vehicle type, and misfuelling diagnosis, but don't have the time to go through it all myself.
Mike, Your sig says 2003. Do you have a dog in this hunt? I can live with 1 in 250, 700, or whatever the true odds are because we aren't talking about exploding cars. I provided all the analysis I plan to do...took me about 15 minutes to compile. Feel free to donate your own 15 minutes and provide a break down by model year or whatever you're asking for. It's in a spreadsheet, apply a filter and walla, there's your answer. I apologize for sounding crass but I'm not doing any analysis for a guy who doesn't have to live with the odds due to lack of ownership of the vehicle in question merely to satisfy his curiosity and interest so he can jump back in and spout off additional useless criticism of my efforts and opinion citing fireballs and exploding cars - but we're not talking about exploding cars are we?!? If we were I wouldn't accept those odds either! So why the heck interject that nonsense!

It is just this type of response that compels me to not post on this forum very often. I try to add a constructive analysis and then here comes a critic who doesn't appreciate the effort that's put in to those who add something of value to the TDI community. Thanks Mike, owner of an '03 VW. "cost-of-ownership point of view"...Really? You don't have a cost-of-ownership. Feel free to respond me only when you have $26k invested in this issue!!! Otherwise I'll ignore you.

I'm out and now unsubscribed to this one...should have never jumped in.
 
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Mike_V

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DeeGee, my post wasn't intended as a personal attack. Apologies if it came off that way.

I can live with 1 in 250, 700, or whatever the true odds are because we aren't talking about exploding cars. I provided all the analysis I plan to do...took me about 15 minutes to compile.
Maybe I should have made this clearer, but when I made my post I was thinking about whether NHTSA would consider this an important safety problem. We all have our own different personal levels of risk tolerance (just getting on the road in any car is dangerous!), but as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, what this investigation will probably hinge on is whether the NHTSA decides the HPFP failure presents an acceptable safety risk, and that depends on how bad they consider the car being suddenly rendered immobile to be. The HPFP obviously isn't as bad as an exploding car, my point was that the problem affecting only a small number of cars doesn't necessarily mean the NHTSA won't view it as grounds for a recall, if they consider the safety threat serious enough.

Do you have a dog in this hunt?
I do have a couple of family members with newer JSW's, but more pertinently, I like my current car a lot (hopefully it will last as many miles as your Golf has for you), and (as probably is the case for many people on the forum) would like to see TDIs be a popular, widely available, and affordable vehicle option long into the future. People who see my car ask me about the new ones, and reading the forum I think about whether the new ones will be worth buying on the used market after a few years. Like you, looking at these numbers I personally wouldn't be very troubled by the safety risk; the more pressing concern to me seems the cost of the potential repair, which unfortunately the NHTSA doesn't care so much about.

If I did own a CR diesel, I'd be hoping that the NHTSA sees the safety risk as a big deal and orders a recall (that would hopefully fix the problem). That would have the benefit of protecting current CR owners financially and helping preserve the value of their vehicles once the warranty is up. Even though I don't own one, I'm still hoping that's what happens, because I don't want to see other TDI owners getting burned by this issue.

As for analyzing the data - it's fairly quick to get a rough idea, but to really go through it requires matching VINs and mileages across field reports, consumer complaints, warranty claims, and fuel analyses to make sure you're keeping track of separate events - the way the data has been entered into the spreadsheets means this isn't necessarily trivial to automate, and doing it right may also require checking the notes on many of the cases. This is time-consuming (I looked into doing it when the data was first published), but since I know so many people on the forum are passionately interested in this issue and would probably be going through these documents with a fine-toothed comb, I was curious whether someone had already begun extracting this kind of information from VW's raw data. In no way was I demanding, or would I demand, that anyone do this work for my benefit.
 
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timwagon

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Hearsay is an out of Court statement offered into evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. The point is that this is a car forum and not a Courtroom. Just saying .....
The definition of hearsay is any second-hand information that has not been personally verified. It is not a legal term.

There is a term used in the legal profession, "hearsay evidence", that has the definition to which you refer.

Darrell was using the word, under its common meaning, correctly.

Just saying...
 
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