tuning box or bigger injectors?

So I previously posted regarding getting bigger injectors or UPsoluting - and everyone agreed with UPsoluting. - Done.

but now I more......

So how bout the new question -

With Upsolute, should I invest in a tuning box, (whatever company) or get bigger injectors?

You will be safer going with bigger injectors. Similar power, lower exhaust temps. Plus you'll get the benefit of the larger injectors at all engine speeds. Tuning boxes kick in around 2,000 rpm.

Tuning box will never give you as much power as the injectors will...

Go with the Injectors...

Gary M

Go both I did and so did BG that I know of.

Go both I did and so did BG that I know of.turbodieselgolfiv@msn.com

Now if I get bigger injectors, I would also need a new injection pump too, right? So that's approaching 1K.

But the T-box is plug and play for under 300 bucks.

I'm leaning toward the box.

I have a speed busttter tuning box for about 250.00 if ya want it

.205 injectors does not require the 11mm injection pump. I was able to pull 138hp at the wheels with the 10mm pump..

Gary M

Think about why your purchased the car.
Did you buy it to have the fastest car on the block?
Did you buy it because you think it will last far longer than a Toyota?

There is such a thing as too much power.
You may not have noticed, but there have been a few premature engine failures reported.

I suppose that if you mod for all this power, and rarely actually use it, then you'd probably be ok. But then why spend so much money doing it?

Wetterauer can easily make a chip as powerful as Upsolute's. Kelly herself told me she will not sell such a chip because she believes engines will fail and Wetterauer will be blamed.

Upsolute has not reached any limit with the stock injectors. Upsolute can easily make a chip more powerful than the fat injector mod. Rene himself told me that he will not sell such a chip because he believes engines will fail and Upsolute will be blamed.

The Wetterauer team in Germany and the Upsolute team in Austria are not idiots. They know that there are limits. People here ignoring the advise of expert TDI-Gods who have a staff of fulltime engineers and a r&d budget. But the people here are instead going to learn the hard way.

So, the best thing to do is: enjoy the Upsolute chip, maybe spend that money on a better cat-back exhaust.

If you gotta have "more power", I recommend the evry-mod. For under $10 you can have a switch next to the driver and a resister than can instantly give you additional power for those rare moments when you feel the need to show off. Why drop hundreds into a tuning box or over $500 in injectors.

Does it really bother so much that some others have a faster TDI than you do? Don't you realize that your TDI will last much longer than theirs?

Why must you always assume people other then your self are ignorant when it comes to their engine? You make it seem like you are the only one who realizes that performance mods will take away from engine longevity.

[ February 02, 2002, 03:48: Message edited by: ST33LR4T ]

Originally posted by ST33LR4T:
Why must you always assume people other then your self are ignorant when it comes to their engine? You make it seem like you are the only one who realizes that performance mods will take away from engine longevity.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I may be wrong, but I think the thread was started by a relative newbie to performance modifications and that he does not realize that further mods will put his engine's longevity in peril. Skypup, TDIBeliever, Gary M, etc. push the performance past the point that Wetterauer and Upsolute feel is maximum - where going past that point will obviously produce angry customers with ruined engines or ruined turbos (or both) with very expensive repair bills.

I think Skypup, TDIBeliever, Gary M, etc.. with the fat injectors realize what they are doing. They want the thrill of high performance, and if fat injectors will result in their engines not lasting 100,000 miles, then they will just keep buying new engines. They love this stuff. It is their main hobby, and hobbies cost money.

I really truely think most people do not realize that they are endangering their engines. A chip, air filter, air intake, low flow exhaust - these mods are the limits of safety as expoused by Wetterauer and Upsolute. Rather than compete and produce higher and higher performance chips, they realize that they will be out of business if they go further - who will buy a chip from a company with a long list of disgruntled customers complaining of ruined engines?

If he wants some extra power for showing off - the evry mod or a tuning box can be rigged with an ON/OFF switch. If used only on rare occasions it will probably be ok.

Who else gave my advise/recommendation to stop and not modify further?
I think many do not know this.
I do not think I am preaching redundant information which everyone already knows (like someone I will not mention does).

[ February 02, 2002, 10:02: Message edited by: HowardZ ]

HZ,

Yes, you are preaching redundantly..... Following me around, preaching your story of "the sky is falling" after I mention larger injectors give more power than a tuning box...... It's a fact, it's been proven on the Dyno... and the new chips, when released, will virtually eliminate the smoke/soot issues.

As for Wett chips not being as strong, they certainly have similiar top end HP to the Upsolute (I've proven that on the dyno) but the bottom end torque curve is considerably different... And my, didn't Kelly/Wett help that TDIClub member that had a problem with a blown engine and VW blamed the chip...

I, for one, have talked with several of the well known racing tuners in Europe about my mods... I've located one that helped me with the .205 and .216 injectors along with valuable advise on engine mods and longevity. I'm not just pulling this out of my rear.... In fact, one of the tuners over there pull 127hp with just a chip on an ALH 90hp engine... So, there is more to be had from our 90hp TDIs...

I really don't believe it is your mission in life (though, I could be wrong) to warn every single person that modifications to their TDI could cause a reduction in the longevity of their vehicle. Most (and I emphasize MOST), understand this and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions without a mother hen telling them to watch out. That is the reason the for the strongly worded peformance disclaimer.

Gary M

Gary, you are the only person I know who recommends mods to newbies and refuses under any conditions to reveal any possible or known negatives or problems with said mods.

You tell people to buy larger injectors, then later after they spend the $600 and ask you why their engine shudders and why their soot levels are unsafe. You'll probably tell them - didn't you read the performance disclaimer? What? You knew about these known problems and didn't mention them - you pretended to be my friend and withheld important information? Then when their engine dies in let's say a hypothetical 50,000 miles they will ask you again, and you will answer that they should have been saving $500 per year for a 'new engine fund' when hotrodding engines. You'll say: You didn't know it? Everyone knows it. You should have read the 'performance disclaimer'.

You are moderator ONLY because I recommended you.
I recommended you before anyone else on the planet knew I was stepping down.

In case you have not realized it yet,
I completely regret my recommending you.
You will single handedly be responsible for the ruin of countless NB TDIs because of your "head in the sand" mentality. It is perfectly fine to recommend what you recommend as long as you include the known drawbacks. It is not that you have examined the negatives and decided it is worth it for you. Once you spend a nickle on a mod - it becomes holier than holy water. You will never admit to yourself that there can possibly be a negative after you have committed yourself to it.

You have a giant ego problem.
You live 66% of your life in denial, and the other 33% asleep.
What you do with the remaining 1% is a big mystery.

Other than that you are a very nice guy.


[ February 02, 2002, 15:06: Message edited by: HowardZ ]

HZ,

Geeezzz... TDI Believer recommended the injectors... I just agreed and you said NOTHING about him... Obviously, you have a problem with me....

So be it... Oh well.... Live with it...

To my knowledge, there hasn't been a single person I have helped over the last 3 years that has had any engine related difficultie...

So HZ, Grow up... and quit standing on the fence throwing rocks......

Gary M



[ February 02, 2002, 18:52: Message edited by: Gary Miyakawa ]

some winged Honda, that has to be a classic saying? I knew I need the power and soot for a reason.

No one likes to be told your engine won't last because of the extra power. Dissconnect the life killing EGR first. Now your way ahead.

My car stock was boring!! I fixed that with proven mods from fellow TDI'ers. There are many power hungry guys like Gary. No one here can personaly take all the credit. WE ALL LIKE POWER! ITS NICE! It will be a while before someone here says they don't like power. Its proven it can be made safely. The Europeans have done it for many years. Bonus is when your mileage remains stock.

If carelessly used the extra power can cause premature clutch wear due to slippage. Bald front tires and speeding tickets. Ohh well...

If your car stubbles on idle read up or talk TurboSteve. He found a fix for that by adjusting the pump. If your into serious power increase buy both .216 injectors 3Poti TB. This will work strong in either 5 speed or auto. No turning back .

Item 1: Gary's Problem.
Far before anyone had a possible fix for the shutter problem, and far before there was any hope on the horizon for the smoke problem - Gary was advising anyone who will listen at newbeetle.org to switch to fat injectors. He would never mention any negatives. When I would bring up a warning about the negatives, then Gary would argue that the negatives do not exist or are so minor as to be unworthy of being mentioned or thought about. Therefore Gary is acting in a very unfriendly way, but it is because his mind is constantly in denial. Once he commits his wallet to a mod - it is perfect and will always be perfect. Psychologists call this denial. Denial of reality.

Item 2: VW has many cars on the road using these fat injectors and they are not failing prematurely. The risk is not in the injectors themselves, but that with our ECU's programming far more fuel is being injected than the ECU is commanding. Too much fueling has the risk of high EGTs and the resulting premature engine failures. Why not take a survey and see what percent of people with fat injectors also has an EGT gauge? My guess is that it will be a small percentage - because the few people who understand the risks are not communicating those risks when recommending fat injectors - and this criticism goes far beyond Gary. People unfamiliar with the risks and who will suffer from your silence will not be calling you their friends.

Item 3: Sure, everyone loves more power. Go for it. But also remember that the vast majority of TDI owners purchased the car for increased engine longevity along with increased fuel economy. I have no problem with established members doing this - they've been here long enough to understand the risks and know what to think about.

Known Risks:
1. High smoke (no solution currently available)
2. Drop in fuel economy (Mickey 10mpg drop, no survey done for others)
3. High soot levels in the oil (which established members know will badly affect engine longevity)
4. Shudder problem (a recent solution is being experimented with - it will be known within a few months if it is a good and permanent solution)
5. Potential high EGTs (a sure engine killer - how high few know because few bother to install an EGT gauge)

In summary: Don't jump on me for suggesting the originator of this thread consider doing neither of the proposed mods. He is a newbie. If he was a longtime tdiclub member he would not be asking such a question. There are known substantial risks with fat injectors. We do not need to repeat them in every thread, but a short reminder is in order when an obvious newbie inquires about fat injectors.

[ February 03, 2002, 08:31: Message edited by: HowardZ ]

HZ,

Right, Sure I have advised EVERYONE on NB.ORG to go to larger injectors... Keep reading what you want to see... Seems that you are very good at that...



Gary M

P.S. Don't be mad at me that YOUR temper caused you to loose the moderatorship over there.... (and I've got the emails to back up my statements!)

Originally posted by HowardZ:
Item 1: Gary's Problem.
should not be on the this section nor mention of any said problem

Originally posted by HowardZ:
Item 2: VW has many cars on the road using these fat injectors and they are not failing prematurely. The risk is not in the injectors themselves, but that with our ECU's programming far more fuel is being injected than the ECU is commanding. Too much fueling has the risk of high EGTs and the resulting premature engine failures. Why not take a survey and see what percent of people with fat injectors also has an EGT gauge? My guess is that it will be a small percentage - because the few people who understand the risks are not communicating those risks when recommending fat injectors - and this criticism goes far beyond Gary. People unfamiliar with the risks and who will suffer from your silence will not be calling you their friends.

Agree here, but don't see the need for more personal attacks on single individuals. Also it is NOT fat injectors alone, it is a combination of many things. There has been NO failures on this board with a stock motor and .205 injectors M5 or 1.68 on A4.
Originally posted by HowardZ:
Item 3: Sure, everyone loves more power. Go for it. But also remember that the vast majority of TDI owners purchased the car for increased engine longevity along with increased fuel economy. I have no problem with established members doing this - they've been here long enough to understand the risks and know what to think about.
That's why this is the performance section of the board. I have argued many times on other boards I used to hang out on that there should always be two performance sections. One for 100% street cars, where there are other factors mentioned and one for PERFORMANCE where all the disclaimers etc can be dispensed with. You hang here, rest assured you WILL FRY something BAD.

Originally posted by HowardZ:
Known Risks:
1. High smoke (no solution currently available0
I'm one of the few that ran .205s with no chip. Smoke was NOT that bad and only at or near WOT, since we have found +VNT mods, Mickey's atitude boost mod and for me higher Cetane fuel, I'm sure my car with a stock chip would show NO smoke, in fact with the stock VNT setting, my car show no smoke now with the .205s, maybe at night in car headlights or something. I would not call little smoke with many solutions, high smoke with no solutions. This all has been solved IMO at least with .205s now 11mm pumps with .216 well there are race engines?

Originally posted by HowardZ:
2. Drop in fuel economy (Mickey 10mpg drop, no survey done for others)
Your wrong here also. Just .205s I had a slight increase in stock MPG from 50 to 51.5 MPGs. Chip only owners also report an increase. But this is a fat injector thread.

Originally posted by HowardZ:
3. High soot levels in the oil (which established members know will badly affect engine longevity)
big problem here, I have to change oil as much as I've always done. wow. Plus since we don't have anyone with just injectors how do you know this is an injector problem. My guess is that a stock motor with a boost mod and .205s and +1 VNT twist would have little extra soot.

Originally posted by HowardZ:
4. Shudder problem (a recent solution is being experimented with - it will be known within a few months if it is a good and permanent solution)
Never had it, I got lots of stuff on my car, so this is NOT related to injectors or anything else and I HAVE everything else.

Originally posted by HowardZ:
5. Potential high EGTs (a sure engine killer - how high few know because few bother to install an EGT gauge)
Agree here on any mod motor, but .205s alone will not kill a engine, to my mind if you drive a TDI like an Integra GS-R, you WILL kill it before 100,000 miles. But if you drive it like a diesel it will last 300,000+. Does not matter what size injectors. These are long stroke motors.

Originally posted by HowardZ:
In summary: Don't jump on me for suggesting the originator of this thread consider doing neither of the proposed mods. He is a newbie. If he was a longtime tdiclub member he would not be asking such a question. There are known substantial risks with fat injectors. We do not need to repeat them in every thread, but a short reminder is in order when an obvious newbie inquires about fat injectors.

No real risk that I know of. I'm a big pusher of injectors. I like them before chip or TB. Only with big injectors will power go up and the injection window stay stock. It is the increase injection window that leads to evil EGTs. So your large injector thoery is all washed up. Larger injectors ARE the best mod for a stock engine and it take 30 minutes to put the car back BONE stock.

Originally posted by Gary Miyakawa:
Obviously, you have a problem with me....

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you had not started attacking me, this thread would not have had you as the subject. I know you are a little paranoid about me, but let me assure you that I do not spend my time trying to follow you around the forum.

But since you have, you should consider revealing all the good and bad about a mod before recommending it. Geez, arguing with me at newbeetle.org that you have no shudder, and then coming to tdiclub and complaining that you have "bad shudder". I really don't know what goes on in your mind.

But this thread is not about you and your problems. It is about someone who has his ECU chipped by Upsolute, and is asking if he should add a tuning box or larger injectors. People give him advise, and I am just one of them.

I get picked on because my advise is unpopular here. Now the thread is about my advise. My advise could have instead been just one of many offerred.

And to Oldman, if you don't have an EGT gauge, then you really do not know what is happening - you just have a hypothesis or as we like to call it - an opinion. Similarly, I do not have fat injectors, so I too only have an opinion.

[ February 03, 2002, 11:59: Message edited by: HowardZ ]

Howiez,



Gary M

Horward, I'm wrong in that I did not notice he had a chip also, in that case, I'm more in line with what you have said. Still you are assuming this guy is a newbie, really I'm still kind of new here also.

You are wrong in that I do have access to an EGT gauge, I'm not running it now as I got buku gauges all over my dash and my car has side air bags which tosses out the pod idea. I've run an EGT in the down pipe, a strap on one. I know of no A4 with integrated manifold with an EGT welded on. I'm looking at cutting down and tapping the EGR port. So I'm more that guestimating here.

oldman, I am not certain that people have crossed the breaking point of their engines. I listen to what Whetterauer and Upsolute tell me in private. I also try to use some logic. But, I also bet that you are not certain either. I know of two forum members whose engines were destroyed. There may be more but I often go months without visiting here.

With chip plus larger injectors people are fueling past the limit of available air - and thus the many observations (or complaints) of smoke. No more power is feasible unless more (or cooler) air can be made to enter the engine. I fully admit it is debatable if this is the breaking point - cylinder pressure, exhaust temperatures, forces on moving parts. This is part of the unknown and uncertain - the world of opinions.

However, advising this configuration without mentioning known problems such as smoke, high soot levels in the oil, shudder, and the potential purchase of new upsoltute software (if and when it becomes available) is unkind in my opinion.

You can make the decision that the additional power is worth the known problems and take a chance on the unknown/uncertain longevity of such an engine. But don't make the decisions for others - let them know the pros and the cons.

P.S. Gary, I like your chicken picture. It is not nearly as offending as your words. Did you make it yourself? What tools did you use to make a dynamic gif file?

P.S. TdiBeliever, long ago I did add a TB to Wettchip for a few months, but I had repeated problems: Engine dropping out of cruise control, engine roughness, ECU error codes regarding fueling including some codes not in the RB CD. I would pull out the Fuel filter T connector and grease it thinking it was leaking air. It culminated with the engine dieing and refusing to start. I had a 100+ mile tow home from vacation. Even though I managed to get the engine to start the next day, the ECU decided that the experience must have been an internal ECU fault and refused to clear error code or stop flashing the glow plug light. The ECU was replaced. Since then, the only time I used the TB was one afternoon at the TDIFest in NC. We all change our opinions over the years, and I no longer advocate chip + tb. I do not think it is wise to fool the ECU with increased fueling via tb ot ffi.

[ February 03, 2002, 18:13: Message edited by: HowardZ ]

Howard... go take some more prozac.

car54....start saving up for a new engine

Re; egt probe. I do think several people have drilled and tapped them into the exhaust manifold. Somebody (Arizona Mike?) did try a blanked-off egt fitting but the probe wasn't in the gas flow, so it would indeed have to be cut off.

I also though about porting the EGR hole big time and using an external turbonetics http://64.225.76.178/main.htm

wastegate set for 20 PSI, this will do two things.
One stop the surge as it WILL bleed lots of flow, I've measured MORE than double intake PSI at the manifold (from the EGR hole) so at 40 PSI exhaust can flow lots through a ported hole, say if I can get it a little more than the 3/4 inch stock EGR hole, I may even plump it back into the down pipe to make it look factory (all ricers just dump it into the engine compartment). Stock turbo outlet at the wheel is only 1.5 inches anyway.
As I said 2 things:
1) knock the surge down to say 22 PSI NO MATTER HOW CRAZY YOU LAY ON IT. The gate is adjustable but it has been my experience that when it pops open boost stops so set the gate at 20 PSI! Of course these are larger holes on race ricers turbos but these race motors also only have the one gate. On a TDI there is still the normal TDI vanes to dump boost.
2) this may add HP, as there are some really high manifold pressures and dumping it instead of killing flow in the manifold as all the spent gasses wait to pass throught the wheel. I'm looking not only HP, but pumping losses and a large reduction in exhaust reversion. When you reach max wheel flow pressure can REALLY spike in the exhaust causing all kinds of bad flow problems in the rest of the system, and once the flow stalls, it takes far more energy to get moving again. Same principly with spill intakes used on race car induction and interoolers, you never want to stall and stack the the flow.

Gates are cheap, under $200. Stainless tube down pipe is kind of cheap I just never got any in the 3/4 ID inch size. I have a bunch from the 110 TDI motor that has a non-cooled EGR. Mandrel bent with flanges and flex couplings. Like VW wanted me to build this?

[ February 03, 2002, 21:46: Message edited by: Oldman ]

Originally posted by HowardZ:
car54....start saving up for a new engine

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Miss your electro-shock therapy this week?

Jeez guys, take it easy. Mod the living hell out of your TDI just be ready to pay the piper. Make your first mods a boost meter and before turbo Pyrometer, then go for it. I know some guys getting over 600hp and 800 lbs of torque out of their Cummins...their rebuild will cost 3-4X ours but they sure do smile alot.
All depends upon what you want.
Rodg