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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old October 18th, 2017, 06:52   #1
morpwr
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Question BRM vs BEW

Does BRM engines have larger nozzles than BEW engines. They both make 100hp, but BRMS use 7.5mm imjectors vs 8mm for BEW? Thank you.v
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Old October 18th, 2017, 07:54   #2
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Here is what is the same between the BRM and BEW engines:

Timing belt.

Timing belt tensioner.

Timing belt roller.

Tandem pump.

Lower timing belt cover.

Front sealing flange.

Tandem pump.

Thermostat.

And a few nuts, bolts, clips, screws.

That is pretty much it. The head, intake, turbo, cam, injectors, valve cover, block, crank, lubrication system.... essentially everything that makes the engine run, is different. And it is bolted into a VERY different car.

So it is often hard to make a really good apples to oranges comparison.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 04:26   #3
morpwr
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Thank you Oil Hammer for that information. Does anybody know what size the nozzles are for a BRM vs a BEW? Thank you.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 05:07   #4
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I am sure someone here knows, but remember it may not by itself make as much of a difference as you think, as the camshaft profile for the injector rockers is different, and of course the software is different, which is playing a larger role in the fuel quantity injected.

Maybe if you gave some context as to the question that would be helpful. Are you thinking you can just put BRM injector assemblies in a BEW and make it more powerful? Because that alone will not do much, and would be an awful lot of work when a software change alone would do more, and you needn't even get your hands dirty.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 17:54   #5
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I thought that because the BRM has same HP as BEW then it would have larger nozzles because it uses smaller injectors. If I put BRM nozzles on BEW injectors I might pick up extra fuel on my BRM. If the programing is how they change it then maybe that won't work. Thank you .
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Old October 20th, 2017, 04:35   #6
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Yeah, you are wasting your time and chasing your tail messing with that sort of thing. Simply because they are just two very different engines. The BRM can sustain higher boost for longer periods due to the fact that its charge air cooler is four times the size of the BEW's. However it is effected by use of the A/C.

Not sure what the maximum power increase on a BEW with software alone, but the BRM is good for a solid 50% increase (peak). Now, that may not be the best thing for the BW turbo, and being in the heavier A5 car you may not notice it as much as in the lighter A4 car, but it is certainly noticeable.

In either case, the clutch in stock form is going to have a tough time getting the power through to the wheels.

One of the best driving, best running, least headache BEW setups I have ever experienced is with the Garrett "drop in" replacement VNT17 turbo, a PD130 intake manifold, no EGR, and a mile tune. They run great, no smoke unless a very hard acceleration and even then it is no more than most modern gassers, excellent driveability, and fuel economy that is (if driven normally) no different than stock. No need to ever even take the valve cover off. Mild enough to be driven every day, the stock clutch in the lighter A4 car will handle it if driven gently, but an upgraded one is best, however it needn't be some monster that is difficult to drive in traffic.

I have several customers with that setup, and they are by far my favorite BEWs.

BRMs? Software alone is probably all I would do. They seem to respond better to that, and they already can as I said handle higher sustained boost without the heat soaking anyway. They also have the added benefit of the powerful auxiliary electric heater grid so if you lose the EGR cooler (which is trouble prone anyway) you won't suffer poor heat as much as bad.

In either case, unless you are doing something really crazy, all the PDs have plenty of "leftover" fueling available to them. Software changes are all that is needed. The ECU controls that differently than on the VE engines.
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Last edited by oilhammer; October 20th, 2017 at 04:39.
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Old October 20th, 2017, 05:48   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
The BRM can sustain higher boost for longer periods due to the fact that its charge air cooler is four times the size of the BEW's. However it is effected by use of the A/C.
Can you help me understand that? Is it because the AC is using the cooler as an evaporator while the cooler is trying to cool boosted air? Or is there a sensor/switch that limits boost while the AC is on? Or.....?
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Old October 20th, 2017, 06:20   #8
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The BRM's charge air cooling is done via a "full frontal" intercooler that is nestled between the A/C condenser and engine radiator, with the condenser being in front.

When the A/C is running, the condenser gets hot, so the fans come on, which pulls air across all three heat exchangers.

So the issue is, is the charge air cooler most efficient with no A/C, and thus no fans, or with the A/C on and fans running? In any event, request for maximum power will cause the compressor to back off anyway, so that drag (thus power loss, albeit minimal once the desired cabin temp has been reached) will go away.

Splitting hairs here, obviously.

But the ECU pulls fuel and timing when charge air temps (this sensor is integral with the MAP sensor) gets above a certain threshold. But the end game is, the BRM has a more efficient charge air cooling system period. This setup carried over to the CR 4 cyl cars, too, which ended up being TOO efficient when used in conjunction with the CR's low pressure EGR, but that is another story.
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Last edited by oilhammer; October 20th, 2017 at 06:24.
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Old October 20th, 2017, 19:08   #9
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Are you wondering if upgrading to BEW injectors in a BRM would be good in the long term? I suppose it would if you were planning on upgrading the nozzles down the road for a big power build. Then you could actually make real use of the 8mm plungers. However, it's much cheaper to go with pd150 injectors for all but the most extreme builds.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 19:34   #10
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From my research, and from what I gathered, so this is to my knowledge, not from a spec sheet, the nozzles are the same size between a BEW and a BRM. The difference is the size of the plungers.

BEW = 8mm (putting them in a BRM is a slight upgrade)
BRM = 7.5mm (putting them in a BEW would make it run poorly)

BRMs are a different animal in hardware setup. For example the turbo, intake, intercooler setup like Oil Hammer explained, and explained very well. From research, the BRMs have much more tuning capability, and were able to afford the use of a smaller plunger, albiet a half of a millimeter. The cooling setup, difference in ECU tuning, and all other differences adding up, including increased size and weight of a Mk5 over a Mk4, and evolving emissions, deemed them to use smaller.

I feel if you put BRM injectors in a BEW, you will starve it for fuel, bringing the map out of spec, and needed to ADD much more fuel via the ECU to meet the demands of the turbo, and EGT temps. This is only specultion, but you could possibly make your 100hp BEW a 90hp BEW.

For my BRM, I have a set of BEW injectors, freshly serviced with new DLC-800 nozzles installed by DBW LLC. I'm looking forward to this as a nice upgrade in MPG and power. They will serve well with the GTB1749V turbo I plan on installing before the end of the year.

The upgrade from BRM to BEW injectors is slight, but an upgrade altogether. PD150 injectors weren't sold on me due to the indirect design, and the lack of range in tuning they offer over aftermarket nozzles.

This is my 2 cents, and I'm waiting on the injectors to be installed. I'm fully turboback 2.5", all deletes, Frank06 stage 2 cam kit, and a 6-speed trans from a BKD. I'm ready and in need of the extra power and MPG. :-)
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Last edited by PhunkFX; October 24th, 2017 at 21:02. Reason: clarity
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Old October 30th, 2017, 10:06   #11
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I've run BRM injectors in a BEW, runs the same, stock tuning, stock everything etc.

As said, nozzle size, no difference.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 08:45   #12
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I just had my BEW injectors installed in my BRM, with the DLC-800 nozzles. I have a stock turbo, turbo back exhaust, and RC1+ tune, and I'll I have to say is SMOOOOOOOKE!!!! It's way over fueled for these injectors and nozzles. The performance gain is definitely noticeable, however, I'm blowing a large amount of unburned fuel out of the back.

So, I'll be purchasing a turbo next week, and I'll have it all retuned for the 3bar MAP, new turbo, and definitely the new injector setup.
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