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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old October 16th, 2017, 10:47   #16
TDIMeister
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I am indeed talking about doing Joule-Thomson with a turbo-expander, not an expansion valve, like you say.

But for whatever reason, the Op is averse to using any kind of heat exchangers, so it's a moot point.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 10:56   #17
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Tdimeister
Have you tried this in real, I am building one but have some things to think about before going ahead again
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Old October 16th, 2017, 11:08   #18
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...on#post3696577

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...77#post3070677
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Old October 16th, 2017, 12:42   #19
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Tdimeister, a simple no would be sufficient.

Just for highlighting the joule thomsen effekt in compare to a expansion

Take 10 bar to 5 bar from 300K for nitrogen will give a few degrees drop in temperature

A isentropic expansion would give a 50 degrees temperature drop, since the turbine efficiency is very poor in real this will be much less, if we regard nitrogen as perfect gas and turbines efficiency is 50% it mean 25 degrees temperature drop over turbine

By this you understand the turbo chargers turbine and compressor efficiency need to be very high and temperature in exhaust need to be high/very high to make meaning or use, with another word instead of open waste gate boost all the way without ridiculous exhaust back pressure build up by poor turbine efficiency...

Just look in the figure 2 on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule%...Thomson_effect

joule thomsen constant entalpi, follow blue line from one pressure to the next and take the temperature

expansion by turbine under isentropic condition (s is constant) right down in the diagram


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Old October 16th, 2017, 16:49   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
I am indeed talking about doing Joule-Thomson with a turbo-expander, not an expansion valve, like you say.

But for whatever reason, the Op is averse to using any kind of heat exchangers, so it's a moot point.

I wouldn't say no to a heat exchanger, but I don't know if it would do any good at such low speed? Space is an issue though due to the size of the tractor. The tdi motor should be a couple inches shorter than the current v8 I'm running, but still not giving much room, or would be in the way of plumbing.

I thought about a liquid to air setup, but then adding a bunch more weight and having to bring ice to every pull to be the most effective would be a pain.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 17:13   #21
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I would think replacing your current V8 setup with a 4 cyl tdi would free up a bunch of weight- allowing for a air to water intercooler. Unless you want to pull in another lighter class. There must be weight restrictions, right? Otherwise, I'd think extra weight is beneficial. Bringing a small cooler with ice and beverages shouldn't be a huge deal.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 17:36   #22
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I would think replacing your current V8 setup with a 4 cyl tdi would free up a bunch of weight- allowing for a air to water intercooler. Unless you want to pull in another lighter class. There must be weight restrictions, right? Otherwise, I'd think extra weight is beneficial. Bringing a small cooler with ice and beverages shouldn't be a huge deal.
The current v8 only weighs about 400-450 lbs (all aluminum Cadillac Northstar). The v8 class I'm in runs 1,600 and 1,700 lbs. The tractor, with me on it, no weights added, weighs in at 1450 lb. Our diesel class wind at 1800 and 1900 lbs. So yes, I can afford some added weight, if I have room to fit it physically on the tractor. Carrying ice isn't a deal breaker, but just is something else to cart along each time.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 19:17   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Z View Post
Tdimeister, a simple no would be sufficient.
I wasn't trying to be a smart ass by my last post. You asked whether I had done it "in real." My post was simply a response to that. I had done simulations a number of years ago into this using GT-POWER while employed for an engine development company, so it wasn't just for fun. What do you mean by "real?" Did hardware get put into a road car? No. Were simulations done on a professional engine software to characterize and understand the effects and benefits? Yes. So I'd say I've done more "real" than most...

And if you read the posts in the links given in my last post as well as what I said earlier on this thread, everything I said agrees with the statement that expanding it along an isentrope (using a turboexpander) is better than throttling with a valve (isenthalpic). I also state in those posts, in agreement with you, that highly efficient machines are required so that don't have an adverse exhaust back pressure to develop all that extra boost required to drive the system.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 21:32   #24
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I'm really curious about what turbo(s) that "Jukums" is using ? And if they are are using NOS ?

My current setup ran less boost than the old 2011 combo.Last time I had my engine under load it produced around 85 psi with 1500 deg F exh temp.That was with 58 and 72mm compressor inducer compound's.Air flow improvements have lowered the boost.I still have no trouble with surge and can make use of the 68mm high pressure turbine exducer.Only trouble now is lack of compression due to collapsed compression ring lands.

Too much heat/pressure last year took its toll on the Diamond pistons.Diamond can make steel pistons for us if we chose to go through with it.
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Old October 16th, 2017, 22:16   #25
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You mention nitrous and a 4bt that would be limited to a single turbo.

I'd think that would be the path of least resistance, as they're stoutly built to the point that 400hp is not near the
bleeding edge of reliability, in fact it's only like 100hp/liter with a lot more mass compared to a much lighter built
engine doing over 200hp/liter.

unless you can run too much nitrous with a diesel, having no experience I've always thought it was like air, where
leaner is gentler but I guess I could see pistons burning with too much of an oxidizing charge. Otherwise, who
needs air when you can get much more oxygen in there through other means. Run something like a K33 with
its 67mm ind/102mm exd,
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Old October 16th, 2017, 23:00   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy2 View Post
I'm really curious about what turbo(s) that "Jukums" is using ? And if they are are using NOS ?

My current setup ran less boost than the old 2011 combo.Last time I had my engine under load it produced around 85 psi with 1500 deg F exh temp.That was with 58 and 72mm compressor inducer compound's.Air flow improvements have lowered the boost.I still have no trouble with surge and can make use of the 68mm high pressure turbine exducer.Only trouble now is lack of compression due to collapsed compression ring lands.

Too much heat/pressure last year took its toll on the Diamond pistons.Diamond can make steel pistons for us if we chose to go through with it.
We are not using NOS. Only diesel + water/methanol injection.
There is single turbo GTB2265VK more detailed information can be found here - http://www.tdr.lv/projekti/
As you can see in dyno sheet, max power is reached at 5,1k rpm, after that power is almost flat till 7k rpm !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2BQbTnWfyo
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Old October 16th, 2017, 23:08   #27
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Nice! Are you using any different camshaft?
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Old October 17th, 2017, 01:14   #28
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Yes. Gasser camshaft from G60 engine with solid lifters
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Old October 17th, 2017, 06:25   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
You mention nitrous and a 4bt that would be limited to a single turbo.

I'd think that would be the path of least resistance, as they're stoutly built to the point that 400hp is not near the
bleeding edge of reliability, in fact it's only like 100hp/liter with a lot more mass compared to a much lighter built
engine doing over 200hp/liter.

unless you can run too much nitrous with a diesel, having no experience I've always thought it was like air, where
leaner is gentler but I guess I could see pistons burning with too much of an oxidizing charge. Otherwise, who
needs air when you can get much more oxygen in there through other means. Run something like a K33 with
its 67mm ind/102mm exd,
Yes, the 4BT would be much easier. Throw a 6BT turbo on it and a couple tweaks to the pump (pretty much all that is done to the one I'd be running against) and make good power and loads of torque, without sacrificing any reliability. But why make it easy on myself, haha! Size restraint is the problem once again. The 4BT would either be dragging on the ground or sticking through the hood. Only way I'm going to be able to use one of those is to build a whole new tractor. Not that I can't, but just trying to see the feasibility of running a smaller displacement setup. I know I'll have more into it this way, and will have plenty of challenges, but I like to be different too.
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Old October 17th, 2017, 12:01   #30
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Using HP/L is a poor way of comparing what a TDI and 4BT can do. Better for analyzing engine performance over a range of scale is BMEP and mean piston speed. A stock 4BT makes rated power at what - 2400 RPM - compared to 3750 for an ALH (with both capable of more but we'll get to that next). Mean piston speeds are 9.52 and 14.875 m/s respectively. If we limit mean piston speed for both to 18 m/s, which is far more physically meaningful than tossing RPM about independent of engine dimensions, this gives 4537 RPM for the 4BT and 5654 RPM for a TDI.

At those respective RPMs, developing 400 BHP would require BMEPs of 20.3 bar for the 4BT and 33.4 bar for the TDI.

Now it becomes easier to evaluate which is easier to realize, which will cost more to build, and which is working "harder" - a measure of engine stresses and durability.
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