NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

I've run out of fuel exactly once, in a gasser, and then, I killed the engine before it actually ran dry.

It's well known that even on VE-pumped diesels, though, running out of fuel does Bad Things to the injection pump...

Harvieux said:

Ya know, I'm not so sure about not having a case out of warranty. Common sense tells us there is an absolute history that these HPFPs can be a total POS. History also tells us that the unconscionable and documented anguish VW has put on many owner's who have had failures to date might be able to be entered as evidence by some hot shot litigator who goes as far as gathering affidavits of their experience. These are questions for someone like Arby or other attorneys, mind you.

I can tell you one fricken thing. If there is no legal recourse to this after the vehicle is out of it's 3/36 or 5/60, those in the know would be absolute fools not to dump these B4 the warranty is up or even a bigger dumb arse to consider purchasing one of these in a pre-owned status unless there is proof positive documentation that the verified and proved robustness of 3rd revision has been installed. Make sense? Later!

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Hopefully the "class action" law firms are monitoring this investigtion.

I've said this before, if the HPFP issue isn't resolved when I'm approaching 60k miles (in another 18k miles), I'll examine the FF canister and metering valve for metal contamination and likely dump the car if I see contamination. I've had metal specks about 15k miles ago (VW changed the FF at 27k miles) and when I changed my FF at 40k miles the specks were virtually gone. If rev.3 turns out to be a more robust HPFP, I'll likely keep the car and perhaps change the HPFP when I do the TB.

Do you run B2 Plus 3?

Yes, I started running B2 at about 22k miles after I came back from a 5k mile road trip in late 2009 and after reading about dweisel's HPFP failure. On the trip I did fillup with B11 (probably diluted to B7 or so) twice in IL, and IIRC B5 twice in OK or TX on the trip. I also used PS-DK from day 1.

I examined my FF at 22k miles and it was pristine when I began blending to B2. I examined it again at 26k miles and found the metal specks. Dealer changed the filter at 26k miles and checked it at the 30k service. The visible metal specks dimished significantly each time I checked. I'm the only one that puts fuel in the car and have all receipts showing diesel was purchased. No water was ever found in the canister.

"This, too, shall pass"

Let the process take its time. I would say that there is a strong possibility that you will get an extended warranty on the fuel system out of this, and if there is a warranty replacement of the injection pump, you'll get the latest design update.

Twinturbocaddy said:

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87996
This is what the 3rd revision did, and there is also a link to a more hopefully better aftermarket solution!

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Those are gasoline HPFP upgrade kits. Totally different although I don't think it will be long before there is an aftermarket diesel HPFP upgrade kit.

I took my TDI for its 10K miles free maintanence to McKenna VW in Cerritos and I had a chance to chat with the shop foreman for the second time. Here is what he told me:

1. They have only had 1 failed HPFP since the last time he talked to me (december 2010). That is very encouraging.
2. Just like before, he told me that it is all about the design of the cam and roller of the pump. He saw piston rollers with minor damage and psiton rollers with a lot of damage.
3. He said that VW is being very tight lipped about the re-design of the pumps.
4. He believes that US fuel does not have enough lubricity to keep the pumps functioning, hence the multiple re-designs.
5. ALL the failed pumps were covered under warranty at his dealership. Again, very encouraging.

That is the extent of it.

nj1266 said:

5. ALL the failed pumps were covered under warranty at his dealership. Again, very encouraging.

That is the extent of it.

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Tell how how encouraged you'll feel when the warranty expires.

nj1266 said:

I had a chance to chat with the shop foreman for the second time. Here is what he told me:

2. Just like before, he told me that it is all about the design of the cam and roller of the pump. He saw piston rollers with minor damage and psiton rollers with a lot of damage.
3. He said that VW is being very tight lipped about the re-design of the pumps.
4. He believes that US fuel does not have enough lubricity to keep the pumps functioning, hence the multiple re-designs.

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The reason for 3 revisions in my opinion is that the first two revisions were probably made to improve the roller cam. Although the roler/cam fails with a hpfp failure it is the RESULT of and NOT the CAUSE. The main cause IMO is aluminum particles made in the aluminum bore which foul the roller which causes the roller to fail. Hopefully the 3rd revision was a coating to the aluminum bore which should make for a durable hpfp.

dweisel

Ive been following the HPFP threads for awhile and hope and pray that VW steps up to the plate and extends the warrenty or replaces the HPFP with a better design. But if nothing happens before i hit 50k miles i will trade/sell. I really like this car and cant seem to really find anything that compares to it for price, MPG, and cargo capacity. Facing the posibility of a 10k repair bill after the warrenty runs out is downright scary.

In the meantime i will continue to use my B2 mix.

nj1266 said:

I took my TDI for its 10K miles free maintanence to McKenna VW in Cerritos and I had a chance to chat with the shop foreman for the second time. Here is what he told me:

1. They have only had 1 failed HPFP since the last time he talked to me (december 2010). That is very encouraging.
2. Just like before, he told me that it is all about the design of the cam and roller of the pump. He saw piston rollers with minor damage and psiton rollers with a lot of damage.
3. He said that VW is being very tight lipped about the re-design of the pumps.
4. He believes that US fuel does not have enough lubricity to keep the pumps functioning, hence the multiple re-designs.
5. ALL the failed pumps were covered under warranty at his dealership. Again, very encouraging.

That is the extent of it.

Click to expand...

Did this shop foreman at McKenna tell you they just denied (couple weeks ago) a customer that I told to call in with a HPFP failure who had a bit over 36K miles? Fortunately, this very customer ended up having it covered but, only after a vist from an area rep. and not before a bout of total anquish.

Like mysql says, what's going to happen to those who have them towed in after 36K? Or, if some of you believe these HPFPs are covered till 60K even if there is no absolute proof of such in publication form, going to do at 60,001? Very much "not" encouraging. Later!

The way to quiet this kind of thread is to back your product.

The legalistic phrase that comes to mind is "fit for the purpose".

I wrote VW a letter asking about the HPFP issue/investigation and the possibility of an $8000+ repair (I just picked that number) that was not covered under warranty. I expressed concern over buying a car that had this type of issue and asked them to please explain it to me. This was the reply I got this morning.

"Thank you for contacting the Volkswagen Information Center. We are
pleased to see your interest in Volkswagen's TDI technology!

Volkswagen Group of America is cooperating fully with the National
Highway Transportation Safety Administration's (NHTSA's) investigation
of fuel pump issues in certain Volkswagen and Audi models equipped with
2.0-liter TDI diesel engines. Volkswagen has informed NHTSA that it
does not believe the complaints reflect a safety defect in the fuel
pump. Volkswagen's own data, which we have presented to NHTSA, suggest
that contamination of the diesel fuel that results in a loss of
lubrication in the fuel pump may explain many of the observed failures.

In addition to supporting NHTSA's investigation, Volkswagen and Audi
will continue to work with customers who have experience fuel system
issues in models equipped with our 2.0-liter TDI engine. Volkswagen
will examine whether external factors may have resulted in fuel
contamination and will work with individual fuel suppliers or other
parties as needed. In any event, Volkswagen will continue to cooperate
fully with NHTSA's investigation.

We encourage you to contact your local authorized Volkswagen dealer and schedule a test-drive blah blah blah."

Anyways, thats my contribution to this ginormus thread. I was ready to buy 2 months ago but I held off for this issue. I've decided I will wait. So this issue has cost them at least one sale.

ohh it's not a safty issue? oohhh then that makes it okay, everyone move on nothing to see.

tlhfirelion said:

I wrote VW a letter asking about the HPFP issue/investigation and the possibility of an $8000+ repair (I just picked that number) that was not covered under warranty. I expressed concern over buying a car that had this type of issue and asked them to please explain it to me. This was the reply I got this morning.

"Thank you for contacting the Volkswagen Information Center. We are
pleased to see your interest in Volkswagen's TDI technology!

Volkswagen Group of America is cooperating fully with the National
Highway Transportation Safety Administration's (NHTSA's) investigation
of fuel pump issues in certain Volkswagen and Audi models equipped with
2.0-liter TDI diesel engines. Volkswagen has informed NHTSA that it
does not believe the complaints reflect a safety defect in the fuel
pump. Volkswagen's own data, which we have presented to NHTSA, suggest
that contamination of the diesel fuel that results in a loss of
lubrication in the fuel pump may explain many of the observed failures.

In addition to supporting NHTSA's investigation, Volkswagen and Audi
will continue to work with customers who have experience fuel system
issues in models equipped with our 2.0-liter TDI engine. Volkswagen
will examine whether external factors may have resulted in fuel
contamination and will work with individual fuel suppliers or other
parties as needed. In any event, Volkswagen will continue to cooperate
fully with NHTSA's investigation.

We encourage you to contact your local authorized Volkswagen dealer and schedule a test-drive blah blah blah."

Anyways, thats my contribution to this ginormus thread. I was ready to buy 2 months ago but I held off for this issue. I've decided I will wait. So this issue has cost them at least one sale.

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Is this an utterly vomitorious letter or what? Brain dead denial of the customer's reasonable concern over their product's unwarrantied and expensive flaws. Blecchhhh.

So this issue has cost them at least one sale.

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+2 more.

Friend of the family is holding off on a 2011 Sedan and I canceled my order in December on a 2011 JSW.

Minnesota we also have the added issue of state mandated B10 voiding our warrantee. Sorry VW should not be selling a TDI in Minnesota with the current issues.

Harvieux said:

Did this shop foreman at McKenna tell you they just denied (couple weeks ago) a customer that I told to call in with a HPFP failure who had a bit over 36K miles? Fortunately, this very customer ended up having it covered but, only after a vist from an area rep. and not before a bout of total anquish.

Like mysql says, what's going to happen to those who have them towed in after 36K? Or, if some of you believe these HPFPs are covered till 60K even if there is no absolute proof of such in publication form, going to do at 60,001? Very much "not" encouraging. Later!

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The point is it ended up being covered even though the car you mention was out of warranty. What else do you want from VW? They covered an out of warranty HPFP failure. What more do you want them to do to that customer whose car had 90,000 miles IIRC?

As for me, I rarely keep a car past 3-4 years and I drive 10,000 miles a year. I will not be out of warranty. And even if VW denies coverage, I have mechanical insurance with Geico. In the meantime, I will continue to fill up from the same Shell truck station and use an additive.

VW knows that there is a problem and they are trying to address it by redesigning the HPFP to make it more robust and able to deal with poor US fuel quality. Worrying and freaking out about it will get us nowhere.

If VW is forced to issue a recall and swap the pumps for the most recent redesign, then that is more than acceptable to me. If they do not, and the last redesign of the HPFP is the trick to make this go away, then I will buy one on my own penny and replace it. The less than $1000 price is not going to kill me. I am more than able to swap the pump on my own.

If you cannot handle the situation that VW put you in, then sell the car now and get something else. I can live with this level of risk. I have other modes of transportation to use in case the HPFP gives up the ghost.

nj1266 said:

The point is it ended up being covered even though the car you mention was out of warranty. What else do you want from VW? They covered an out of warranty HPFP failure. What more do you want them to do to that customer whose car had 90,000 miles IIRC?

As for me, I rarely keep a car past 3-4 years and I drive 10,000 miles a year. I will not be out of warranty. And even if VW denies coverage, I have mechanical insurance with Geico. In the meantime, I will continue to fill up from the same Shell truck station and use an additive.

VW knows that there is a problem and they are trying to address it by redesigning the HPFP to make it more robust and able to deal with poor US fuel quality. Worrying and freaking out about it will get us nowhere.

If VW is forced to issue a recall and swap the pumps for the most recent redesign, then that is more than acceptable to me. If they do not, and the last redesign of the HPFP is the trick to make this go away, then I will buy one on my own penny and replace it. The less than $1000 price is not going to kill me. I am more than able to swap the pump on my own.

If you cannot handle the situation that VW put you in, then sell the car now and get something else. I can live with this level of risk. I have other modes of transportation to use in case the HPFP gives up the ghost.

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You miss the point. The story shows VW is not adequately warrantying a problem that turns the car into financial ruin that no middle class person can absorb. Just because this customer was able to prevail in this case doesn't change the fact that VW made known they don't intend to cover it. We are on this web site because we want to work with VW not turn our backs on it.

also i think only a handful of TDI owners drive less than 10,000 a year and keep new cars for only 3-4 years. So what's not a "big deal" for you is quite a big deal for many here.

LRTDI said:

The way to quiet this kind of thread is to back your product.

The legalistic phrase that comes to mind is "fit for the purpose".

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The implied warranty of 'fitness for a particular purpose' is inapplicable in this instance. That, and VW specifically disclaims any and all implied warranties to the maximum extent allowed by applicable law in their express warranty provision.

nj1266 said:

The point is it ended up being covered even though the car you mention was out of warranty. What else do you want from VW? They covered an out of warranty HPFP failure. What more do you want them to do to that customer whose car had 90,000 miles IIRC?

As for me, I rarely keep a car past 3-4 years and I drive 10,000 miles a year. I will not be out of warranty. And even if VW denies coverage, I have mechanical insurance with Geico. In the meantime, I will continue to fill up from the same Shell truck station and use an additive.

VW knows that there is a problem and they are trying to address it by redesigning the HPFP to make it more robust and able to deal with poor US fuel quality. Worrying and freaking out about it will get us nowhere.

If VW is forced to issue a recall and swap the pumps for the most recent redesign, then that is more than acceptable to me. If they do not, and the last redesign of the HPFP is the trick to make this go away, then I will buy one on my own penny and replace it. The less than $1000 price is not going to kill me. I am more than able to swap the pump on my own.

If you cannot handle the situation that VW put you in, then sell the car now and get something else. I can live with this level of risk. I have other modes of transportation to use in case the HPFP gives up the ghost.

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You are absolutely confused. The one with 90K miles was one of the fleet of 40-50 vehicles which were under the Fidelity extended warranty.

The one I referred to above was not far off the 36K and way below the 60K PT warranty threshold. Both of these incidents were posted here by me.

So let me get this straight. Let's assume you came by my dealership and purchased one of my supposidly and totally prime pre-owned TDIs and I specified to you that I replaced the TB assy., along with servicing everything under the sun. You take delivery and shortly down the road the vehicle quits on you and it ends up being a timing belt assy. issue. After investigating the failure, you discoverd that I used some Chinese knock-off roller or tensioner resulting in $3K to $4K of engine damage. Would you give me a pass similar to the pass you want to give VW? Somehow I don't think so and therefore I would most likely be the scum of the earth in your eyes and you would most likely be posting your experience here on this venue until the fricken cows came home.

Or how about this. Let's assume you continue the routine of only using the Shell station you claim to use each and every fill up and a couple thousand miles down the road or 12K to 13K on your odo, you experience an HPFP failure. The vehicle gets towed into a dealer that hasn't had several HPFP failures and this other dealer immediatey claims fuel contamination or mis-fueling and therefore denies coverage. Would your total appeasment attitude all of a sudden mysteriously change at this point? Or to make it more realiatic, let's assume you just turn 36,001 miles and kaput! You then take it to McKenna and they totally deny coverage due to the vehicle technically being out of warranty and even the area rep refuses to capitulate. I think at that point you would be singing a totally different tune, or would you? I mean afterall, a $6K to $10K out of pocket repair bill won't kill you, eh? You gotta love this poop! Later!

In Massachusetts I guess there is a law to slowly boost up all in the state to 5% so currently we have 3%. Would it benefit the fuel system any more if I were to use Optilube XPD on top of it?
Thanks!

Twinturbocaddy said:

In Massachusetts I guess there is a law to slowly boost up all in the state to 5% so currently we have 3%. Would it benefit the fuel system any more if I were to use Optilube XPD on top of it?
Thanks!

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Maybe a little, but B3/5 should be sufficient. If you get D2 you need the XPD.

I have read this thread with great interest as I am (or was?) contemplating purchasing another TDI in the future. I currently own a 2000 Jetta TDI as well as a 2002 Jetta TDI; they've both been a joy to drive! My question is this...while recognizing the fuel pumps in both are not HPFP's (I think?), how are they lubricated and would a lubricity additive be beneficial or a waste of money?

Lubricity additives are useful in any TDI - note that in the 2003 California report, one of the pumps shown is a VE pump, just like what's on your two cars.

So what would one do if your state or region instated let's say a B10 mandate? What would we do?

Samcar222 said:

So what would one do if your state or region instated let's say a B10 mandate? What would we do?

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If that is the only fuel reasonably available, your warranty is still intact if you use it.

Bill

Samcar222 said:

So what would one do if your state or region instated let's say a B10 mandate? What would we do?

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I predict that VW will officially approve up to B20 very soon retroactive on all CR diesels since people are using it with no ill affects.

Like it or not, the public does a certain amount of beta testing on vehicles. The most conservative approach for VW was to institute an initial B5 cutoff until additional B5 to B20 testing could be done. The fact that states are going to mandatory higher BioFuel percentages isn't going to make your CR "obsolete".

scdevon said:

I predict that VW will officially approve up to B20 very soon retroactive on all CR diesels

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If they had spent a few extra $$ and injected fuel for the DPF burnoff directly (like Ford, et al), instead of into the cylinder, I would agree.

Maybe 10, not 20. They'll stay as close to the highest mandate as possible.

Kill two stones with one bird.

scdevon: > I predict that VW will officially approve up to B20 very
> soon retroactive on all CR diesels since people are using it
> with no ill effects.

How is this "using it with no ill effects" known?

My understanding of the original B5 limit was was the risk of
"oil dilution". Is it now known that the risks were overstated?

I'd guess that if VW does approve above B5, there's some chance
they may also reduce the miles between oil changes proportionately.
________
Or maybe they'll mandate use of at least B5 in the US, so as to
mprove lubricity, and make the HPFP problem just go away