Died going down highway, electrical or injection pump?

chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
My 03 Jetta died on me going down the highway about 70mph. It lost power and at first I thought the turbo went into limp mode so I downshifted into 4th and it boiled out black smoke so I pulled over. Wouldn't restart. Glow plug light is comes on, but I replace relay 109 just in case. Still no start. I checked fuse 32 and it was ok but replaced anyway. Still no start. I cracked the line from the IP to an injector and I know fuel is being delivered.

A little history. Car is at 349k miles. I just did a timing belt change at 347k (my third one with this car). I also replaced the two large O-rings in the injection pump about 1k miles prior to timing belt because the IP was leaking. I was getting a little shutter/rough idle intermittently and some shutter when downshifting after doing the seals. I tried the "JB Weld" method but the weld didn't stick to the stack as I had hoped. Luckily I had lines drawn to get it close. I've used this forum to do the timing belt, IP timing, and the injection pump seals. Somehow I missed the "hammer mod" to fix the shutter issue.

So I'm not sure what my next step should be. I don't think its a grounding issue as it was smooth road, not like I hit a bump and car died. And all of the other electrical is working fine. Car cranks over strong but doesn't even attempt to fire. I made the mistake the first time I did the timing belt and put the IP pin in the wrong slot. When you turn the motor then it sounds like it wants to crank. My issue now is that it just turns and doesn't attempt to start.

All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Did you check if any intake hoses plew off or split?

I'd also check the timing belt. Get the flywheel at the mark and see if the pump's close.
Maybe even pull the vacuum pump to eyeball the cam. If the belt skipped you'd be able to see if it's off that much.
 
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chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
I pulled the timing belt cover off and everything is still tight. I didn't think about pulling the head cover and checking it all again. That will be next but I know the belt is still tight. When I first got the car years ago, I heard a pop and the engine was revving very easy. When i did the timing belt the belt was loose because the tensioner spring had popped but luckily the tensioner was still hanging on.

I thought maybe it was an air issue. I've checked all the hoses and no air issue. I removed the elbow next to EGR to make sure it wasn't stuck and it is ok. Checked air filter and no obstructions there. I replace the MAF sensor to rule that out.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Did you check if any intake hoses plew off or split?

I'd also check the timing belt. Get the flywheel at the mark and see if the pump's close.
Maybe even pull the vacuum pump to eyeball the cam. If the belt skipped you'd be able to see if it's off that much.
Yep, first thing I would check is the tension and condition of the TB in that type of situation. Often it's difficult to detect a sheared belt down on the crank sprocket so it's a good idea to check the marks as mentioned. Sounds like many similar "lost power" events.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
I would inspect the turbo and check if the intercooler is full oil. Then I'd do a compression check. Next I might suspect the IP is shot.
 

chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
Sorry for the long delay. My Jetta has sat for a few months and just now had time to work on it.

I pulled the valve cover and vacuum pump and locked the cam down and check the crank and it is at TDC. While turning the engine over to get the cam loobs up, i could feel that there is good compression. The IP pin will almost go in and I can see the hole that the pin goes in. So I don't think its a timing issue. I pulled the hose between the turbo and intercooler. There is some oil pooled at the bottom but not so much that its blocking the air. No oil came out of the hose when i pulled it. I pulled the soft elbow hose off the EGR and it pulls air when I turn it over. I cracked the injector lines while I had someone turn the engine over and I know each injector is getting fuel. There was no air in the lines either. I also replaced the MAF sensor with a new factory Bosch. So its getting air and fuel and the car is in time.

I'm still dumbfounded at what caused the engine to suddenly die. I called the closest guru and waiting to hear back. Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated.
 
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STDOUBT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
dos jettas
chrisjc,
I don't see where you said you checked every inch of the timing belt.
You need to eyeball every inch, as there could be missing a few teeth
somewhere in there. Have to jack it up, remove the lower TB cover,
and put eyes on it all the way around.
Also this: "The IP pin will almost go in" means you're not "in time".
I think your belt slipped :-\
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Yeahbut when you move the pump shaft to adjust the timing you are moving it from the pinned position. If it jumped a tooth the pin wouldn't "almost go in".
 

hollowhead

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Location
cope,sc
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon 5 speed(2)2000 vw beetle tdi automatic
Have you checked the fuel shut off valve?
 

chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
chrisjc,
I don't see where you said you checked every inch of the timing belt.
You need to eyeball every inch, as there could be missing a few teeth
somewhere in there. Have to jack it up, remove the lower TB cover,
and put eyes on it all the way around.
Also this: "The IP pin will almost go in" means you're not "in time".
I think your belt slipped :-\
STDOUBT,
When I say "almost" I mean like 2-3mm off. I can see the hole and with some pulling on the cam pry bar it should go in. I just don't like to do that because I don't want to break the back of the cam where the tool locks in. The tools holding the cam, crank, and IP are always tight once I pull take up all the slack in the timing belt and tighten up the tensioner. It seems that the tools will always be hard to get exactly back in the same spot once you pull tension on the belt with the tensioner.
 

chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
Have you checked the fuel shut off valve?
No but I replaced relay 109 to rule that out. I read where people had similar experiences but they also had no glow plug light showing once turning the key. I still had the glow plug light but replaced the relay anyway to rule that out.

I read a thread where a guy jumped the wire to provide power directly to the fuel cut off solenoid, but I have fuel at the injectors so I don't think this trick would be necessary.
 
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hollowhead

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Location
cope,sc
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon 5 speed(2)2000 vw beetle tdi automatic
When you switch the ignition on the fuel cutoff should click.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Yeahbut when you move the pump shaft to adjust the timing you are moving it from the pinned position. If it jumped a tooth the pin wouldn't "almost go in".
When you have the new belt on and tensioned, cam gear loose and the injector pump pinned you should have the 3 bolts on the pump loose enough that they will slide in the 3 slots.

Then tighten 3 bolts.
They should be close to the marks they made under them if not right on.
Those 3 bolts you may have to loosen later to set the injection timing once the motor is running -and- up to 90 C.

The center of the slot is a good starting point if your not sure.
 

chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
When you switch the ignition on the fuel cutoff should click.
Yep I forgot to mention that I can hear a click when I turn the ignition. I leaning towards buying a used IP. Can’t think of what else it could be.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
If you loosen the metal fuel lines on top of the injectors slightly, and crank the car does fuel come out? Spraying out?
 

chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
If you loosen the metal fuel lines on top of the injectors slightly, and crank the car does fuel come out? Spraying out?
Yes I'm getting fuel to the injectors. It sprays when I crack the line and and turn the engine over. We cracked every one just to make sure there was no air in the lines, which there wasn't.

The only thing I can think is that the IP isn't creating enough pressure to operate the injectors properly. The car is in time, the three bolts on the IP are tight, so the IP should still be in time. Its getting air and has compression.

I keep thinking of the shutter I was getting. I think the quantity adjustment was slightly off after I changed the IP seals, but I can't imagine how that would suddenly kill the engine.

All comments/suggestions are appreciated.
 

super1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Location
NY
TDI
none
Not sure if this was said before but did you check your ASV ? Stick a screwdriver in make sure it stays open when you trying to start? Those vacuum lines hooked up backwards?


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99_TDI

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Location
PA
TDI
1999 mk4 ALH & 2005.5 mk5 BRM
Are you sure your turbo did not go? In your first post you said you had a ton of black smoke, which tells me that your IP is providing plenty of fuel


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chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
Not sure if this was said before but did you check your ASV ? Stick a screwdriver in make sure it stays open when you trying to start? Those vacuum lines hooked up backwards?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep the value is open and the spring tension is still good. I stuck and screwdriver to make sure it stayed open and it did, but still no start.

What do you mean about the vacuum lines being hooked up backwards? I haven't touched any of the lines recently.
 

chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
Are you sure your turbo did not go? In your first post you said you had a ton of black smoke, which tells me that your IP is providing plenty of fuel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No I'm not sure the turbo didn't go out. But I figured if it did go out the engine should at least start, but run rough. I thought maybe that the turbo had blown and was blocking air, but when i pull the elbow between the intercooler and the intake/EGR, the engine still sucks air there. And pulled the hose from the air filter and turbo inlet and still sucks air there. I pulled the hose from the turbo going into the intercooler and no oil came out. I stuck my hand in the intercooler and oil had pooled there, but definitely not enough to block air flow.

Is there another way to check the turbo to see if it is blocking air without removing it?
 

super1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Location
NY
TDI
none
Yep the value is open and the spring tension is still good. I stuck and screwdriver to make sure it stayed open and it did, but still no start.

What do you mean about the vacuum lines being hooked up backwards? I haven't touched any of the lines recently.


Some people when they work around the intake manifold hook up the two vacuum lines by the intake & one is for the ASV which would keep the flap shut so it doesn’t seem like that’s your problem


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wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Is there another way to check the turbo to see if it is blocking air without removing it?
Take the big air hose off the ASV and try to start it.
As long as the flap inside the is open air will get in.

If exhaust can't get through the turbo that may be a problem also.
 

99_TDI

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Location
PA
TDI
1999 mk4 ALH & 2005.5 mk5 BRM
I would pull the intercooler pipe off the turbo and look at the condition of the compressor wheel, and feel if there’s any play in the bearing. Maybe I missed this in reading, but does the actuator move freely?


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chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
Are you sure your turbo did not go? In your first post you said you had a ton of black smoke, which tells me that your IP is providing plenty of fuel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I haven't thought of this yet, but a buddy of mine asked if I was getting any smoke from the exhaust while turning the engine over. I said no, but I can feel exhaust is pushing through. Shouldn't I be getting some smoke if fuel is being supplied but engine not firing?

I haven't had time to pull the hoses and inspect the turbo yet.
 
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dynamic

Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Location
Greater Montreal
TDI
'03 MKIV
I am no TDI expert, but I believe the computer can turn the engine off on purpose if it believes one or multiple sensors necessary for proper operation and safety (e.g. speed sensor/crankshaft sensor, sensors in injection pump, etc.) are not functioning correctly.


It can sometimes be wiring/ground/loose connectors that causes a sensor to send implausible values.


Possible things I would check for:

-Scan for codes w/OBD2 or VCDS

-Gasoline in diesel tank?
-Water in diesel tank?

-Unplug MAF and try to start (don't think it would cause a no-start, but I would do it anyway if I heard engine shutter before the no-start).
-Make sure fuses are all there (i.e. that a fuse wasn't removed while diagnosing problems and accidentally not put back).

-Check that injection pump is grounded. Pretty sure one of the components (a solenoid?) gets its ground from the injection pump housing/body.



** But #1, I would not try to start engine until I was 99.99% sure the timing belt/related components were in perfect working order (including rotate engine twice and everything still lining up perfectly).
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Computer (ECU) will not shut the engine down because of a faulty sensor, but a faulty sensor (perhaps only a couple, at most) can prevent the engine from running. Engine will continue to run (for a short while, until it seizes anyways) even with the oil pressure warning going off. Shutting down the engine because of "trouble" would bring on all sorts of liability/personal safety issues and litigation upon the manufacturer.
Car shut down driving down the road while running fine.
 

dynamic

Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Location
Greater Montreal
TDI
'03 MKIV
I thought major/critical faults could actually cause computer to turn off engine, like IP components that sense fuel quantity, or critical sensors (e.g. speed sensor & its redundant counterpart. Is this wrong?



I apologize if I put bad information in the forum. I spent like a lot of time researching Bosch systems (injection pump & electronics) before I bought my first used TDI. Maybe somewhere I got mixed up. My bad.
 

hey_allen

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Location
Altus, OK
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI
I'm not sure that it was a "safety shut off" but my car definitely quit operating when the crank sensor failed.
Hard loss of power, briefly restarted but then died and wouldn't catch on any subsequent cranking attempts.
When I used a basic OBD2 bluetooth adapter that I keep in the car, it pointed at the sensor.
Once the sensor was replaced and the code cleared, the car started right up again.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
I thought major/critical faults could actually cause computer to turn off engine, like IP components that sense fuel quantity, or critical sensors (e.g. speed sensor & its redundant counterpart. Is this wrong?



I apologize if I put bad information in the forum. I spent like a lot of time researching Bosch systems (injection pump & electronics) before I bought my first used TDI. Maybe somewhere I got mixed up. My bad.
I don't think the ECU shuts the engine down in those situations when critical components/sensors fail, rather the ECU can't manage/control engine functions properly w/o that information and so it just won't run.
Much like a personal computer, when a missing critical item doesn't join the party it won't boot up normally?
 

chrisjc

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Location
Georgia
TDI
03 Jetta manual, 02 Golf 4dr manual, 97 7.3 F-250 manual
Update 1-12-20

I pulled the pipe from the turbo to the intercooler and the turbo inlet from the intake side. I can freely spin the wheel. I did this while pulling the lower timing belt cover off to check the timing. The crank was off one tooth, as I had noticed before, but since I had everything off i put everything in perfect time. No start. And the next thing was replacing the injection pump and draining the fuel filter to make sure I didn't have bad fuel. Fuel was good. Even though i was getting fuel to the injectors I thought maybe the pump wasn't creating enough pressure, so I bought a used IP on ebay. Now I think my lift pump has went out as I can't get fuel back into the filter and to the pump. I put a hand vacuum pump on them to draw it up the pump and used hand pump filler bottle to gravity feed diesel into the pump. Still no start.

Maybe I'll try the crank sensor as suggested above.
 
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