Kerma tune + vibration

Rrusse11 · Mar 9, 2019

The DKM clutches look like they have a spring loaded pressure plate.
I know SBC has also adopted this strategy, their so-called "silent clutch".
I'm sure the setup will help alleviate some of the vibrations to the gearbox.

Both of the SBC2 End's I had A; in my mk6, and now B) in my mk4, , were without the spring loaded pressure plate.

Without doubt, a more direct connection to the drive train.
My first hand experience may be anectodal, but I'm glad to have
a Fluidampr, even with my brass synchros in the Mk4.

The audible difference with clutch in or out is the key here.
If you can hear it, you could well be shortening the life of your
steel synchros.

turbobrick240 · Mar 9, 2019

All pressure plates are spring loaded, that's what they do. You mean the clutch disk itself. I still wouldn't run a smf setup in the steel synchro 02q. It never ends well.

Rrusse11 · Mar 9, 2019

turbobrick,

Oops, you are absolutely correct, sorry about the nomenclature mishap.

theuprightbass · Mar 10, 2019

adjat84th said:
That gearbox chatter IS your synchros rattling back and forth. Depending on when exactly VW changed from brass to steel in the 02Q is the important question. '09 02Qs have seen brass, but who knows when exactly they changed over. Only way to know for sure would be to look up parts per your VIN and see what they come up. Brass will take the beating all day long, steel not so much. There are more folks with failures of steel synchros (myself included) than successes with steel synchros.

In your opinion, do you believe there’s anyway (while using a SMF) to mitigate or stop damage to the steel synchros? Also, after I had an unsuccessful search, are there any upgrades to the synchros available?

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Rrusse11 · Mar 11, 2019

do you believe there’s anyway (while using a SMF) to mitigate or stop damage to the steel synchros?

Yes, read the whole thread.

adjat84th · Mar 12, 2019

I legitimately wanted to cryotreat a set of synchros. They're cheap, and it's not expensive to get something that light and small done, $75 if I recall. I just thought to myself, if it didn't work, I was out some more money and time. At the same time, my stupidly expensive clutch started slipping and I just ended up deciding to go back to DMF.

A fluidampr, heaviest SMF you can get, and gearbox fluid cocktail mentioned in a different thread are rumored to work (no data to back it up that's posted here). Good luck is all I have to say.

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theuprightbass · Mar 14, 2019

adjat84th said:
I legitimately wanted to cryotreat a set of synchros. They're cheap, and it's not expensive to get something that light and small done, $75 if I recall. I just thought to myself, if it didn't work, I was out some more money and time. At the same time, my stupidly expensive clutch started slipping and I just ended up deciding to go back to DMF.

A fluidampr, heaviest SMF you can get, and gearbox fluid cocktail mentioned in a different thread are rumored to work (no data to back it up that's posted here). Good luck is all I have to say.

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Would you happen to know the thread that refers to the gearbox fluid cocktail?

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theuprightbass · Mar 14, 2019

adjat84th said:
That gearbox chatter IS your synchros rattling back and forth. Depending on when exactly VW changed from brass to steel in the 02Q is the important question. '09 02Qs have seen brass, but who knows when exactly they changed over. Only way to know for sure would be to look up parts per your VIN and see what they come up. Brass will take the beating all day long, steel not so much. There are more folks with failures of steel synchros (myself included) than successes with steel synchros.

So without doing prior research to this question. If there were ‘09 02Qs shipped with brass synchros, would it be feasible to buy said synchros and replace the steel synchros?

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adjat84th · Mar 14, 2019

theuprightbass said:
So without doing prior research to this question. If there were ‘09 02Qs shipped with brass synchros, would it be feasible to buy said synchros and replace the steel synchros?

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Click the link to my build thread in my signature. There are a couple pictures showing why the synchros are not swappable. You might be able to swap the entire output shaft (gears 1-4), but there would be several measurements needed to confirm fitment.

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theuprightbass · Apr 30, 2019

turbobrick240 said:
All pressure plates are spring loaded, that's what they do. You mean the clutch disk itself. I still wouldn't run a smf setup in the steel synchro 02q. It never ends well.

I can now officially attest to that statement about the 02q. I had less than 3k miles on my DKM SMF setup that I installed in February and just lost 3rd gear.

adjat84th · Apr 30, 2019

Sorry to hear about your efforts. I'd be curious if the below referenced alternative might be considered a "synchro saver" or just a more affordable alternative to a fluidampr. It's been a couple months since, how soon is very soon??

KERMA said:
FWIW, look for an alternative to the fluidampr to appear, very soon.

theuprightbass, I'm working in and around CT, RI, and MA Monday-Thursday for the year if you want an extra pair of hands.

740GLE · May 3, 2019

prob around the same time their Q loader+ can tune DSG from the ODB port

adjat84th · May 3, 2019

If it's a big and heavy enough damper to potentially save synchros, I will gladly throw my fluidampr onto my Mk4 to quiet it down some more.

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theuprightbass · May 4, 2019

adjat84th said:
Sorry to hear about your efforts. I'd be curious if the below referenced alternative might be considered a "synchro saver" or just a more affordable alternative to a fluidampr. It's been a couple months since, how soon is very soon??

theuprightbass, I'm working in and around CT, RI, and MA Monday-Thursday for the year if you want an extra pair of hands.

Thanks adjat84th. The offer is very much appreciated!! It’s my daily so right when it failed I bought and installed a rebuilt trans which also had a high torque Peloquin LSD already installed from Aaron at CascadeGerman.com along with a new DMF and Sachs clutch kit. I’m going to replace 1st-3rd synchros in my old trans and sell it to recoup some cash. Also installed a Fluidampr just Incase.

adjat84th · May 4, 2019

Did you notice a decrease or elimination of shudder with the fluidampr?

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theuprightbass · May 4, 2019

adjat84th said:
Did you notice a decrease or elimination of shudder with the fluidampr?

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I didn’t notice any decrease. I installed it before I lost the third gear synchro with the hope that it would stop the chatter and save me from any synchro damage but honestly it sounded/felt the same to me....and I still burned the synchro. I’m definitely glad I have it after the trans swap and going back to a DMF for peace of mind although I would’ve spent the $500 in other upgrades had I known it wouldn’t mitigate the trans chatter.

Rrusse11 · May 4, 2019

Gents,

In my experience a Fluidampr helps with synchro chatter, don't know about
"shudder". I got about 20k miles on my MkVI transmission before it was
totalled. I did install it very shortly after my SMF clutch went in, it was clear
to my ears that something had to be done. Metal fatigue is cumulative.

I got lucky with my MkIV and found a used one here on the forums. Not
essential with the brass synchros, but IMO the mitigation has to help for
the long term. And it beats a DMF anyday in my book.

It's only part of an attempt to dampen vibration, not a complete answer.
Driving style I suspect plays a part, roll into it instead of stomping it.
Keep the revs up if you're driving hard, the power band with my tune/
setup is 2800-3800 rpm.

My $.02

adjat84th · May 5, 2019

With enough low end torque, more than 300ft-lbs at <2k rpm, a DMF will hit its internal stops as the springs get compressed all the way. In my particular case back when I was stage 2 tuned still on stock clutch, the fluidampr cured that shudder. I'm sure there would have been a point that nothing could have saved the shudder though.

@theuprightbass, I agree on the noise. Fluidampr installed and the SMF was still chattery and gear noise was not pleasant sounding at low speeds.

KERMA · May 21, 2019

Rrusse11 said:
Ahhh, please let us know. Enquiring minds would like to see an alternative.

Linky

740GLE · May 23, 2019

a fluid can be come hard over time but vulcanized rubber can't? Interesting.

ttcheung · May 24, 2019

I stand corrected by Kerma. I received a new, updated tune from the Kerma folks, and one of the "fixes" included the shuddering we've been experiencing at the upper gears. I asked Kerma how a tune update would fix what I thought was a mechanical symptom. Apparently the shuddering is from the engine tune, not from the clutch slipping.

I haven't had a chance to upload the tune into the car, but will update with observations.

I also didn't read the post Kerma wrote back in February.

theuprightbass · May 24, 2019

ttcheung said:
I stand corrected by Kerma. I received a new, updated tune from the Kerma folks, and one of the "fixes" included the shuddering we've been experiencing at the upper gears. I asked Kerma how a tune update would fix what I thought was a mechanical symptom. Apparently the shuddering is from the engine tune, not from the clutch slipping.

I haven't had a chance to upload the tune into the car, but will update with observations.

I also didn't read the post Kerma wrote back in February.

I’ve installed the updated tune and it’s great. Shudder is gone and power feels smoother through the RPM range. Definitely helped in the upper RPMs as well, which is good. That’s the only thing I personally feel was lacking in the tune.

mercdude · May 30, 2019

Yes, I also just got an unsolicited updated tune from Kerma to fix the "mechanical" failures of my vehicle (aka shudder). Guess what, the tune cured the shudder... just like I said it would.

So now I feel it necessary to give a shout out:

1. Thank you Kerma for doing your due-diligence and providing a thoughtful product. You followed through on delivering what you promised: an awesome tune that gets great mileage. I again enjoy the benefits of your tune.

2. I'll also say, 'thanks' to all the Kerma representatives that assured me it was my vehicle's mechanical failures (motor mount, axles, clutch, DMF, strut, were all given as likely failures... or, my favorite, I don't know how to drive a TDI properly) and even bashed me on this forum. Made me/us almost waste thousands of dollars chasing a ghost that was derived from the tune.

3. Lastly, thank you TDI club members for stepping up and writing your experiences with the shudder, I have no doubt that created some incentive to get this problem resolved for us all.

Happy motoring!

adjat84th · May 30, 2019

This is great news that just the tune was able to solve an issue that has long plagued the DMFs. Glad you didn't end up replacing anything and you have a solid fix!

fwthompson · Sep 2, 2019

I have a 06 jetta brm dsg with the exact same issue as "mercdude". I have torn this jetta down to scratch and built it back up as my daily driver for long distances. This is my 3rd built of this model and year so its not like it my first try. Check my long signature. And thanks to all on here who know me and have helped me.

Decided recently to try a new tuner out, closer to me. Kerma has been on my list for some time. I have only bought hard parts off them until this tune. I recieved the tune promptly and all was well with the flash process. Had a few hard conversations with Charlie about codes i was getting but eventually he came thru with this last tune. 3rd try. Now i have this horrible vibration on hard pulls in all gears. Just on WOT. Thought it was boost rumble or something. Because i know most my parts are in good conditions. Tune is almost perfect otherwise less a medium lag on takeoff, So i contacted Charlie again.

Hes a bit hard to deal with at times, and I'm sure he's a very busy person, (might need a assistant). Actually the rest of the guys there seem very busy as well. He assured me he never heard of my problem, but then i found this thread. I must have explained myself and symptoms wrong to him.

I hope he will help me find a solution, to continue my business with their company, and i believe he has good intentions. I think this is a hard industry to cater to, and customer that make up the TDI world, but the long relationships are worth the effort. Lets help these guys rise up over these issues so we all can go on to greater things..

740GLE · Sep 4, 2019

to Kerma's defense BRM and a CRD are completely different worlds of issues, the only thing that's the same is the mk5 chassis they sit on.

fwthompson · Sep 4, 2019

Correct. But quite a coincidence they both suffer similar issues after a tune. I just want to build relationships with these vendors so we both can get quality from our time and money. There's enough guys out there who just want our cash then there gone, i can't do more business with those types.

And we shouldn't encourage that type of action. I believe people should stand by there products and their word. I have had great experiences with other vendors from here tho so this is not all a sad story. I think this vendor will turn out ok, they have to, to many bad past hardships they have gone thru.

KERMA · Sep 5, 2019

740GLE said:
to Kerma's defense BRM and a CRD are completely different worlds of issues, the only thing that's the same is the mk5 chassis they sit on.

^^^ what he said.

Not even close to the same thing. CR is a whole different universe, and BRM do not have the parts and systems that are causing the so-called "DMF shudder" (mis-named, because it has NOTHING to do with the clutch)

There's something wrong with this particular car, because none of the other hundreds of other BRM owners are complaining about what he describes.

First it's "no power gain" and weird hard starts, severe "lag", no smoke (even on massively fueled tune) then it's this... so I guess with this car we're now into titrating power to "see what it will take" becuase "stock tune don't do that" (but FWIW neither do any other BRM with that tune)

Acts like a clogged or inoperable lift pump or bad tandem pump, clogged fuel filter or maybe wonky injectors... But "no it can't be that". (EDIT: or else a failing transmission...)

he mentions "difficult"... sometimes the most difficult part of tuning those old (Pre-CR) cars, is convincing the owners that their baby is not acting the same as the other hundreds of other cars with a similar or the same exact tune and equipment... so it's not the tune. And can be difficult/impossible to diagnose from a few sentences in e-mail.

But for sure, this is not even closely related to the phenomenon being experienced on the CR cars.

fwthompson · Jan 26, 2020

Sad ending for me. Had to get the refund due to the attitude shown above. Alot of these vw's have similar parts in them, vw planned that for easy production for them and to save on R&D, think about it for a logical second.

I dont claim to know it all, but i have had a few cars in piles in my garage, reassembled them and ran 100k plus miles on them. And this one is no lemon. The argument on "older vehicles" and "customers baby" is laziness talking and closed mindedness. Its called RESTORATION look it up. Theres some classics out there in better shape then 2019 models because someone cared to make them right.

If a business want to be successful try taking a point from Cascade, they are the epitome of customer service. Helpfull even on the issues they "have never heard of", If they made cars i would have 2.

Kerma tune + vibration

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