Newbies: Do not go to the dealer!

ymz said:

With all due respect for JasonTDI... are you sure they gave you "another standard nut" or a locknut that looks similar (but has indentations around the outside)? The locknut-plus-washer has been the official VW replacement for the factory-supplied shouldered nut for quite a number of years now...

That said, there are far too many instances of parts departments giving out wrong parts... (I have run into 2 occasions within the past 6 weeks, and I don't get around to fixing my cars that often... I can only imagine how many goofups somone like Jason runs up against...)

Yuri.

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Nope. Just a standard nut with a flat washer.

On the two instances to which I referred, the part numbers were correct... it's just that someone at the dealership had put the wrong part in the bin...

(One was the cover on the lower left side of the front bumper... they sold me the one for a Jetta, but handed out the one for a Golf... The other time was during the recent timing belt extravaganza where someone ordered a crankshaft sprocket bolt (replacing the crankshaft seal), and the one he was given was several MM smaller in diameter... needless to say, he re-used the original and, I hope, replaced it at a later date...)

If only things were a bit more foolproof... but as the old saying goes, fools can be so ingenious...

Yuri.

Bump for an important thread for the newbs.

The technician is the key to the service at the dealership, most of them don't drive VWs, or have ever owned one. They don't care about your car.

Then there's a few dealership technicians that actually do care, and will do a good job... very hard to find them... probably one tech per major city working at a dealership.

alphaseinor said:

very hard to find them... probably one tech per major city working at a dealership.

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That's if you live in a state where TDI's have been available. Less per city in a state where there have been no new TDI's for 5 years or so.

The dealer apologists must needs to put up or shut up; make your recommendations so those that have had disagreeable experiences can be specific.

I cannot imagine the circumstances that would lead me back to a stealership or its no-service department. I have had two TDIs and zero satisfactory experiences with stealerships.

IMHO, I think it is perfectly valid at this point to name names.

My dealer, Byers in Columbus, OH, has competently, although expensively, performed all the work I have had them do. Granted, most of that has been warranty work - switches, window regulators, the usual VW electrical gremlins. The oil changes are obscenely expensive - $110, but they use the correct oil, and used to wash and vacuum the car. They no longer vacuum.

But, any corrective work I have since sought out gurus in the area. Byers, last time I looked, billed at $98/hr for labor. This is why I avoid them now. That rate is simply unsustainable for me. They have in the past quoted $900 for brake replacement, and $285 for a replacement key fob.

OTOH, they have sold me an OEM battery for $95 - fairly priced. Their oil and misc filters run around $12-15, IIRC. They did however want $100 to install the battery, and quoted $75 to replace the brake light switch. Oh, they have also quoted $75 to replace the headlight bulb, but acknowledged that this estimate DID include the cost of the bulb.

So it goes.... I have no doubt they would have correctly installed the headlight bulb in my NB, but again, labor price structure for this dealer is, IMHO out of line and not supportable.

Don

Doug Huffman said:

The dealer apologists must needs to put up or shut up

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Not an apologist... but here's one person that needs to be mentioned, and the focus of my previous post.

Boardwalk VW tech # 6736

No clue who this guy is, but he's the only person there I can vouch can do a proper belt change on a TDI.

Specifically on a Monroe Motorcars Ebay car I inspected. My customer insisted on a new timing belt, even though I told him all of the parts on the dealer invoice were correct, and the static (and vag-com) timing was dead on.

1999.5 Jetta TDI. Updated the belt to the 100k (very unusual for Boardwalk) and used the updated roller (again unusual). Replaced the water pump, all three rollers, used the old style bolt on the lower roller, and the new style bolts ('04+) on the engine mount. Used new cam seals (vac pump, and cam seal), and put in a new crank seal. Notes from him also showed the rear main seal was leaking slightly, but was declined by Monroe.
He caught suspension problems that were declined (I got them later...).
He caught multiple bulbs out.
He filled up all fluids.

Now mind you he charged about $400 (Total was eight hours @ $100 per hour) more than I do, for the same service and inspection, and got paid probably $13 - $20 an hour.

Oh this is the third car I've taken a look at that he's touched... no marks, everything is covered.

Contrast this to the rest of the techs... I find fresh paint marks, missing parts, parts that were sold and not installed, services performed poorly, lots of customers complaints, etc... I've had one that charged to clean an intake and didn't even touch it.

Ben1000 said:

I wonder if VWoA has anyone (maybe PR dept?) that monitors these sorts of things.

Not sure what impact this would even make though, unless they did the "we don't suck anymore" ads that Ford has been doing for a looong while now.

It seems they are their own worst enemy if they are serious about selling cars to normal customers more than once. The only loyal VW people I know do all of their own work.

So it would be interesting if history repeats itself when VW cranks up diesel marketing and production in the US. (this seems to be what will happen) GM's diesel cars from the 70's & 80's were aweful but I think customers would have at least tolerated them if they were repaired reliably (GM service depts didn't have the first clue how to repair them, sound familiar?)

Possibly the difference now is they will have competion from companies that perhaps will not need service (honda/toyota) as often and are thus less likely to be messed up by the service dept.

Still the best way, as always, is to learn everything you can about any vehicle you drive and perform the work yourself when possible.

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Well, VW of Americia recently moved its headquarters to Northern Virginia, where I live. They listed all sorts of management position openings on their corporate web site. One position was "Director of Customer Satisfaction for Vehicle Maintenance/Repair". The listing said VW was trying to improve its image in the maintenance and repair areas and improve on these functins, and was looking to hire a director to run the department to identify the issues and make these changes. I have alot of experience managuing large projects (20 years worth) and dealership employment experience (with VW, no less). For grins, I applied (3 months ago) and have heard absolutely nothing-zippo! I was lacking one CRUCIAL requirement--Auto dealer UPPER management experience! Oh well.

--Nate

aja8888 said:

When I bought my 2002 from a private individual, he had it service at "the dealer" exclusively. He was proud to tell me the recent service included servicing the tandem pump. Hmmm....a 2002 ALH doesn't HAVE a tandem pump (but they charged for the service on it).

I am sure there are countless "dealer stories" like mine. I agree with DS on this after what I have read on this site since owning my Golf.

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I took my car to the dealer for warranty issues only. At 9000 miles a glow plug burned out. It took me three trips over 45 days to get it repaired correctly under warranty (they originaly put an ALH TDI glow plug in (its different), and it got worse from there). That's not the kicker. On my last visit, I watched the machanic and when I got the "invoice" that indicated what was charged to VWoA, it had "AC flush and recharge" included with the GP replacement. Of course, the AC recharge was not needed, nor was it done. Not sure if this was intentional or not, but it was odd!

I sent an e-mail to VWoA about this, with a scanned copy of the invoice.

--Nate

Here is a good example:

Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) or "check engine" Light comes on. Damn, what do I do now bring it to my nearest VW dealer, or find a guru with VAG-COM software on TDI Club?

Let's examine option 1: The VW Dealership (aka: stealership)
You go in, tell them about your MIL, and turn your car over to them.
Sometime, many hours later, they inform you that it was a glowplug code making the MIL come on. So they replace ALL 4 glowplugs and the wiring harness to make the problem go away.

Estimate of costs:
Glow plugs: $60 Each! X 4 = $240
Glow Plug wiring harness: $120?
Diagnostics: $90!!
Labor for 2 hours: $160
Estimated total: $610.00!!!!

Now Option #2: Research and find a guru/vag com owner:
You check out the VAG-COM list on this site and find someone in your area. You contact them and arrange to meet them. You meet them and they hook up VAG-COM to your car's computer to read the code.... Glowplug code: Then this person will first try to find the actual problem... they might check the glowplugs with a multitester, or hook each one up to a battery to make them glow. In this situation, all 4 glowplugs check out ok. The fuse is good too.... The guru cleans off the connections, clears the code, and sends you off. If the MIL comes back on in a couple days, it's most likely your glowplug harness. If it comes back on in a matter minutes, it could be the relay.

Now, in this case, the light comes back on after a couple days and you call the guru... he tells you to go ahead and get the glowplug harness... (TDIparts.com......$58)

You go back, he swaps your bad glowplug harness with the new one, clears the code and you're off...problem fixed.

Estimated cost:
Glowplug harness: $58
Labor: $30
Diagnostics: FREE!!!
Total cost: $88

HUGE savings with a little bit of research and patience. Nothing that didn't need to get changed didn't and no corners were cut. The total job took only 20 minutes compared to the 2hrs labor the dealer charges you.

In this particular scenario, you save over $500 compared to going to the VW dealer. The dealer charges $60 per glowplug.... you can get the set of 4 for $60.... They inflate the cost of parts up to 4X what they actually cost, replace things that do not need to be replaced, and tack on extra labor time.

There are many many nice people on this site that will help you and NOT rip you off. Search the VAG-COM list for your particular state for a TDI trusted guru....Also, find reputable parts vendors:

- tdiparts.com
- kermatdi.com
- metalmanparts.com
- dieselgeek.com

Just to name a few...

I have saved thousands of dollars in less than a years time being a member of TDI Club. The money I saved on actual problems with the car alowed me to continue Modding. $500 saved on a glowplug problem paid for chip tuning and upgraded injector nozzles.

If I had not found this site, I would have spent as much in repairs as I did modding and I'd be driving a slow stock TDI.

Joe TDI said:

If I had not found this site, I would have spent as much in repairs as I did modding and I'd be driving a slow stock TDI.

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X2... plus I get to help out a ton of people...

Bump for a good thread to keep up top....

I'm up to 5 dealer botched timing belt jobs this year.... I have one in the shop right now that looked like it had *most of the right parts changed, but the tensioner was a chinese knock off, some no-name belt, and the engine mount bracket was completely stripped on one bolt, the other was loose... Probably another few miles from the engine falling out... Good stuff...

I'm going tomorrow to rescue another one from a dealer before it gets screwed up... Estimate was over $2k for a timing belt and alternator replacement. I'll know more details tomorrow when I go get the car, but I don't think the estimate was including the rollers or the water puimp... More good stuff...

The dealers around here, crap some even a few hundred miles from here, seem to have incompetent TDI techs... I bet I work on more TDI's in a week than some of them do in a few months...

Bump bump bump. There should be a release saying you have read and understand this thread before being allowed to purchase any TDI. Seriously.

I build custom bikes for a living so I also do a lot of customizing and Hot-Rod stuff to Harleys. The stories that I have heard about what the dealers have told customers is unbelievable. Everything from "If you don't use Harley parts your bike will burst into flames" to " Your frame is bent because you used aftermarket shocks and you need a new frame".........ALL DEALERS ARE SCAM ARTISTS!!! PERIOD!!! I don't care what label is on the front door! Harley, VW, Chevy Dodge, Whatever. They all hire new kids just out of school for mechanics.
I bought a brand new Dodge/Cummins pick-up. It was NOT CHEAP!!! I could have bought a new Mercedes instead. The transmission did not shift, at all, from day one. It was stuck in first gear. THREE times the dealer gave me the truck back and it didn't even make it home. Finally they put a new transmission in it and it did the same thing. After three months of dicking around, had the transmission out and apart three times and put a new transmission in and even talked about getting me a new truck they found it was a loose battery terminal!!!!!!!!! Was screwing up the computer. No, I wasn't angry at all........

chopprs said:

(snip) After three months of dicking around, had the transmission out and apart three times and put a new transmission in and even talked about getting me a new truck they found it was a loose battery terminal!!!!!!!!! Was screwing up the computer. No, I wasn't angry at all........

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__. Chop, that sounds like a lot of VW horror stories. I'm thinking that most of what happens in VW places isn't scam but ignorance and poor training. And my guess is that it's systemic -- the whole VW stealer network is set up with marginal product at a high price, so they're not going to be able to sell many except by cutting the price down very low; once you don't make anything at the front end, you gotta screw down on the service dept really hard. That means good techs and well-meaning inexperienced ones are pushed to cut corners, sell unneeded parts and processes, flat-rate/rush stuff, etc. The stealership management is going to try to pull as much $$$ out of the service dept as possible, meaning that there's little in it for the techs -- and "send you to VW Service School -- certainly not, that's too expensive". Is it any wonder that good techs in a VW service shop (stealer) is going to make mistakes when he's pushed into rushing, cutting corners, lacking training, and being guided by "service advisors" whose job is to screw the customer rather than help make the service experience work better? And is it any wonder that most good techs leave stealers' service depts ASAP?

__. The only way to make things better will be for VW to really overhaul how things work and I don't expect to see that happen.

went to the stealership for oil and a filter [got a pd and want a record for the file] the goober behind the desk tried to provide the wrong oil and filter after being told what the car is never heard of 507 oil then wanter 46bucks for a fuel filter and 26bucks for a air filter and never heard of a cabin filter

TDIJetta99 said:

Bump for a good thread to keep up top....

I'm up to 5 dealer botched timing belt jobs this year.... I have one in the shop right now that looked like it had *most of the right parts changed, but the tensioner was a chinese knock off, some no-name belt, and the engine mount bracket was completely stripped on one bolt, the other was loose... Probably another few miles from the engine falling out... Good stuff...

I'm going tomorrow to rescue another one from a dealer before it gets screwed up... Estimate was over $2k for a timing belt and alternator replacement. I'll know more details tomorrow when I go get the car, but I don't think the estimate was including the rollers or the water puimp... More good stuff...

The dealers around here, crap some even a few hundred miles from here, seem to have incompetent TDI techs... I bet I work on more TDI's in a week than some of them do in a few months...

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I bought our '03 wagon from a dealer with ~135,000 miles on it. It was priced right for the work that it needed but while test driving I noticed a few things that I had no problem telling the dealer and having them replace there. One being the MAF was shot. When I returned from the test drive I told the salesman about the issues I had with the car and a few minutes later the service manger pulled around with the car and asked me to hop in for a test drive.
While riding, he basically told me that he has no idea what these cars are supposed to feel like because they only get bout ONE TDI IN ABOUT EVERY 3 MONTHS. That's 4 TDIs a year they see through their service dept. I had VAG with me and told them that I could hook up and show them the MAF was bad in about 10 minutes. They just replaced it and we went for another test drive. Service manager was amazed at how much of a difference it made.
It also needed a timing belt done so I worked out a deal to buy the timing belt components at a discount through thier parts dept. You should have seen the look on their face when I listed out the components I wanted. They told me all I needed was a timing belt and water pump. I told them that the list of parts I requested are the parts necessary to do a proper timing belt change and this is what happens when one is not done properly. They were the ones that did the timing belt and water pump ~10,000 miles prior to the purchase. I ended up buy the parts from Dieselgeek anyway.
Just goes to show that they don't know how to work on them. I'm sure they have a tech that was trained on them but as the old saying goes, "if you don't use it, you lose it".

Sounds like a fimiliar story... It happens a lot...

I can't count how many people that were suprised at how well a stock TDI runs when everything is right.. Those same people are absolutely blown away when they go for a ride in a tuned one.. Even more shocked when they learn that the tuned TDI gets the same mileage as the stocker.. Hehehe

I disagree my dealer came highly recommended by my analy retenative lawyer .Sure he is expensive (both of them ) but so far the sevice has been 100%

when I blew thru town on vacation with a defective air mass sensor at 12noon buddy came out & plugged in,changed the sensor and had me out in 20 min

when I kacked an oil pan buddy (they go thru 10 a year)even came down on a sunday at dinner time to open the compound (dealer is in the "Hood") for the tow truck driver ,had it fixed by 3pm the next day

I don't mind paying good money for good work ... last time I looked we all wanted to get paid for what we do

XXX_er said:

when I kacked an oil pan buddy (they go thru 10 a year)even came down on a sunday at dinner time to open the compound (dealer is in the "Hood") for the tow truck driver ,had it fixed by 3pm the next day

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If they go through 10 oil pans a year, you'd think they would have sold you a VW skidplate, and you would have gladly installed one

That's amazing.. There aren't any dealers around here that would even think about doing something like that...

the service manger is a 2nd generation german VW mechanic

when I bought my 2001 golf the car the salesman introduced me to the father of the presant service manager , he said "and for any service issues you will be dealing with our service manager Carl"

I looked up ,carl had snuck into the room and was standing at attention ... it was actualy kind of un-nerving ,but they take their service seriuosly



I didnt ask and they never told me there were after market skid plates,I don't know why or if they even know

The skid plates are NOT aftermarket. They are a VW part!

My 02 golf just has a plastic fairing but whatever ... we were talking about dealers here

they gave great service & fixed the oil pan.So far they have made no mistakes in the 7 years I have dealt with them and my lawyer bud who always seems to be in **** has been dealing with them for over 20 years and has no issues .

I think there are good AND bad dealers out there ,just like there are probably good AND bad guru's out there .

I doubt that any dealer really sets out to have unhappy customers on purpose ,I wonder if there JUST are not enough TDi's down there for a dealer to get any good at ,I know there are lots of TDi's up here ?


any body know a bad guru,no names just your bad experiance?

I just got the evolution skid plate and my oilpan issues should be over

XXX_er said:

any body know a bad guru,...//...I just got the evolution skid plate and my oilpan issues should be over

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I don't think you'll find a "bad" guru... they didn't get to be considered TDI-Club "Gurus" if they didn't really care about these cars and the level of their work. In this internet era, their reputation is what keeps them in the forefront.

As for your believing that the Evo skidplate will take care of any and all oilpan calamities... I did manage to get my oil pan cracked even with the Evo plate... Of course, I wouldn't drive a TDI without one...

I'm glad you found a reliable dealership... in a perfect world, a VW dealer would be the perfect place to service your car, but... I was glad to get my oil pan replaced in a jiffy at the dealer, but I did pay about four times what it would have cost me to fix it myself... of course, I was far from home at the time...

Yuri

PS: when your dealer does a timing belt job on a 2002 TDI such as yours, do they use the 2003 model year large roller? Do they routinely replace the water pump and 3 idlers as well as at least 5 "stretch" bolts ??

ymz said:

As for your believing that the Evo skidplate will take care of any and all oilpan calamities... I did manage to get my oil pan cracked even with the Evo plate... Of course, I wouldn't drive a TDI without one...


PS: when your dealer does a timing belt job on a 2002 TDI such as yours, do they use the 2003 model year large roller? Do they routinely replace the water pump and 3 idlers as well as at least 5 "stretch" bolts ??

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you must have really hit hard

I have no idea what they do on a TB job ,I know mine has held together

XXX_er said:

I have no idea what they do on a TB job

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That is the scary part.