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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old February 19th, 2020, 22:31   #5341
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I'm also surprised by the broader appeal of the Cybertruck than I had expected. It's such a radical departure from convention. That 1/8" stainless exoskeleton is amazing.
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Old February 21st, 2020, 07:24   #5342
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Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
Apologies if this article has already been posted, but I found it interesting:

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...v-sales-fizzle

Reinforces what I've heard from several sources: People are buying Teslas because they want to own or be seen in a Tesla. That it happens to be an EV is somewhat ancillary, although it does form some of the car's appeal. The abysmal sales of non-Tesla EVs supports that theory. For example, at least on paper the Chevy Bolt is an entirely acceptable EV, but they were only able to sell about 16,000 of them. And the Tesla sales success story is limited to the Model 3: Model S and X sales are falling. Audi and Jaguar EV sales are especially low. Even Hyundia and Kia, whose EVs have gotten good reviews, are barely moving any vehicles.

I wonder why this is: One could argue that Tesla's far superior charging network is a reason, although I wonder how many EV drivers actually regularly charge somewhere other than home. Otherwise I can only surmise that reasons are what the article says: Range anxiety, cost, style (not an SUV), and low fuel prices.
A few thoughts on that subject.

While the Bolt is entirely adequate for commuting or a bit of intercity travel along the densely populated east coast, it is problematic for longer road trips due to its slow charging speed of about 50 kW. Compare to a Tesla's average charging speed of well over 100 kW, with max charge rates of up to 250 kW. The Bolt just doesn't compare favorably on long trips, which is a sticking point for many car buyers. The Bolt also has an ergonomics problem for larger people, although GM has improved that we redesigned seats in recent months.

EV fast charging infrastructure for non-Teslas is inadequate in much of the US. Electrify America is building their network out as fast as they can, but there are still gaps along the major travel routes, with some travel routes completely unserved.

The range of many non-Teslas is still poor. The Audi e-Tron, for example, has a range of about 204 EPA miles. Typical highway travel speeds of 70+ miles per hour will reduce that. Cold weather will also reduce that. Expect winter road trip range to be between 125 and 150 miles, which is poor, especially considering the aforementioned limited charging network. This is due to the vehicle's poor efficiency, which also results in higher per-mile charging costs.

Hyundai and Kia can't build cars fast enough due to battery cell shortages. They actually make some very compelling vehicles that offer fast charging rates of 70-80 kW, a compelling form factor for many buyers (CUVs and hatchbacks) and have reasonable prices.

As many here know, I have always been a major road tripper. I drove our Passat TDI across the country several times. Tesla was the only option due to high vehicle efficiency, high performance and a robust and rapidly expanding fast charging network. Add to that high resale value, compelling technology and good ergonomics, and the Tesla ended up being the obvious decision.

But everyone has their own set of desires and must-haves. It will be good for everyone when the legacy auto manufacturers start offering compelling EVs in higher quantities. Unfortunately, they seem to have found themselves significantly behind the curve due to Ostrich Syndrome - convincing themselves that their current offerings are fine and that building EVs is easy (some have likened it to flipping a switch).

After 55,000 miles in 17 months, I'm still very happy with our choice. I've been all over the country in it and have a 7,000 mile cross-country road trip to visit family planned this coming May. I've had no trouble traveling or charging, even in the dead of wither with sub-zero temperatures and snow in Michigan. The car continues to receive improvements via over-the-air updates and the Supercharger network continues to expand rapidly, especially across smaller state routes now that most of the interstate highways are covered.
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Old February 21st, 2020, 07:36   #5343
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Interesting thoughts, Lawson. However, if I were to purchase an EV it would be for local use, not road trips. I have cars I prefer for that. Because of that I expect I'd rarely charge anywhere but home, so the charging rate and network isn't that important. I suspect there are a fair number of people considering EVs who would use them the same as I think I would.

I do wonder if it's battery availability or lack of interest that's keeping sales down for some EVs. The number of i-Paces I saw on cars.com would indicate there's plenty of supply. But that may not be true for other vehicles.

I also wonder if lower cost EVs are going to struggle, since customers shopping in that segment may (a) be more price sensitive, making ICE a more appealing option; and (b) be more likely to own just one car, so the limitations of an EV may be more concerning. Just speculating.
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Old February 21st, 2020, 07:51   #5344
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Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
Interesting thoughts, Lawson. However, if I were to purchase an EV it would be for local use, not road trips. I have cars I prefer for that. Because of that I expect I'd rarely charge anywhere but home, so the charging rate and network isn't that important. I suspect there are a fair number of people considering EVs who would use them the same as I think I would.

I do wonder if it's battery availability or lack of interest that's keeping sales down for some EVs. The number of i-Paces I saw on cars.com would indicate there's plenty of supply. But that may not be true for other vehicles.

I also wonder if lower cost EVs are going to struggle, since customers shopping in that segment may (a) be more price sensitive, making ICE a more appealing option; and (b) be more likely to own just one car, so the limitations of an EV may be more concerning. Just speculating.
Based on our previous conversations, I think a Bolt would suit you very well. You don't really plan to use it for long trips, you like the looks and the hatchback form factor. There are some incredibly good deals on new Bolts right now since, as you said, GM is having trouble moving them. A friend in Frederick, MD just bought one for his wife for something like $24,000 all-in... crazy considering the MSRP.

The I-Pace struggles from the same issues as the e-Tron ... limited charging network, low efficiency, low range and high price. That said, it's very nice inside with nicely appointed leather seats and premium materials. Many of the controls are more conventional than Tesla, which appeals to some people, although I've come to prefer the Tesla interface over a sea of buttons knobs and slow touch screen radios. I think price and range/efficiency are the biggest issues for the i-Pace. Not far behind are Jaguar's poor reliability and inept service departments.

I think the upcoming EV to keep an eye on is the Ford Mach-E. I checked it out in person and I have to applaud Ford for copying several design cues from Tesla. If Ford can secure a good supply of batteries, I expect the Mach-E will have strong sales.
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Old February 21st, 2020, 11:29   #5345
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Based on our previous conversations, I think a Bolt would suit you very well. You don't really plan to use it for long trips, you like the looks and the hatchback form factor. There are some incredibly good deals on new Bolts right now since, as you said, GM is having trouble moving them. A friend in Frederick, MD just bought one for his wife for something like $24,000 all-in... crazy considering the MSRP.

The I-Pace struggles from the same issues as the e-Tron ... limited charging network, low efficiency, low range and high price. That said, it's very nice inside with nicely appointed leather seats and premium materials. Many of the controls are more conventional than Tesla, which appeals to some people, although I've come to prefer the Tesla interface over a sea of buttons knobs and slow touch screen radios. I think price and range/efficiency are the biggest issues for the i-Pace. Not far behind are Jaguar's poor reliability and inept service departments.

I think the upcoming EV to keep an eye on is the Ford Mach-E. I checked it out in person and I have to applaud Ford for copying several design cues from Tesla. If Ford can secure a good supply of batteries, I expect the Mach-E will have strong sales.
What are your thoughts on the Kia Soul EV in about three years, used. To be used around town only. Meaning it would be a 2019 model or so for maybe $12K or $13?
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Old February 21st, 2020, 11:45   #5346
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Tangentially, is there any hard data or use cases on older electrics? Like a 2013 Model S with 120K miles on it?

I'm curious as to what the lifespan of our A3 e-tron is going to be; worst case, I guess, the battery becomes useless and we drive a 150hp 1.4TSI A3 - which isn't terrible.
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Old February 21st, 2020, 13:20   #5347
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What are your thoughts on the Kia Soul EV in about three years, used. To be used around town only. Meaning it would be a 2019 model or so for maybe $12K or $13?
If that's the 100 mile range model, I think that would be a good buy. I've driven the old Soul EV several times and liked it a lot. Very comfortable for four people and lots of practical storage space, given its boxy shape. It drives and handles well, too. Plenty of torque off the line but is a bit down on power overall ... still feels better than a gas Soul.

The new 240 mile range Soul EV should be available soon or now in select states. I met a Canadian couple at Fully Charged LIVE in Austin, Texas who drove their new Soul EV down from British Columbia. Sweet little vehicle.
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Old February 21st, 2020, 13:24   #5348
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Originally Posted by Nuje View Post
Tangentially, is there any hard data or use cases on older electrics? Like a 2013 Model S with 120K miles on it?

I'm curious as to what the lifespan of our A3 e-tron is going to be; worst case, I guess, the battery becomes useless and we drive a 150hp 1.4TSI A3 - which isn't terrible.
Lots of data available on the Model S. Some vehicles have 300,000+ miles - a few of those are on the original battery and others had batteries replaced under warranty (early growing pains). That said, given the choice between a new Model 3 standard range+ and a used Model S, I'd go for the three because they have much faster charging (faster on road trips), are more nimble and, for me, more comfortable. But the Model S does have some very unique features and has a boatload of cargo space with its huge rear hatch.

I have no idea how the e-tron plug-in hybrid will hold up. Ford's CMax Energi is starting to cause problems later in life and dealerships are having trouble fixing them. On the other hand, the Volt is super reliable. Personally, I wouldn't want to hold onto the e-tron plug-in hybrid for too long, as I expect resale values will be poor in the future, especially if they end up having problems.
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Old February 21st, 2020, 13:53   #5349
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What are your thoughts on the Kia Soul EV in about three years, used. To be used around town only. Meaning it would be a 2019 model or so for maybe $12K or $13?

My first thought is that it may not be that easy to find one in that price range. Less than 100 Kia Soul EV's were sold in the US in 2019. Here's an article with a pretty comprehensive list of PEV's and US sales figures.

https://insideevs.com/news/343998/mo...les-scorecard/
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Old February 21st, 2020, 13:57   #5350
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I'm very interested in the VW Id Crozz that should come out late this year. It would probably be another year after that before I might be able to swing the cash. That will give time for any Beta Bugs to pop up anyway.
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Old February 23rd, 2020, 15:20   #5351
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Originally Posted by VeeDubTDI View Post
If that's the 100 mile range model, I think that would be a good buy. I've driven the old Soul EV several times and liked it a lot. Very comfortable for four people and lots of practical storage space, given its boxy shape. It drives and handles well, too. Plenty of torque off the line but is a bit down on power overall ... still feels better than a gas Soul.

The new 240 mile range Soul EV should be available soon or now in select states. I met a Canadian couple at Fully Charged LIVE in Austin, Texas who drove their new Soul EV down from British Columbia. Sweet little vehicle.
Yes the 100 mile range model. It will be the last year produced with the relatively smaller battery. I am thinking that when it comes out of the typical three year lease it will be much cheaper than the 2020 model after it becomes available used in 2023-24.

On the average it will get less than 40 miles around town on a day with some occasions getting up to 60 miles in a day.

Thanks for the helpful feedback. A hatchback is very useful in my view.
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Old February 23rd, 2020, 15:33   #5352
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My first thought is that it may not be that easy to find one in that price range. Less than 100 Kia Soul EV's were sold in the US in 2019. Here's an article with a pretty comprehensive list of PEV's and US sales figures.

https://insideevs.com/news/343998/mo...les-scorecard/
Thanks for the link. I am betting that Kia is going to continue to bring more EVs and as such the support/qualified technicians is going to keep growing. The warranty on the battery is also attractive:100K miles or 10 years which ever comes first. How Kia treats their customers regarding this warranty I do not know telling you the truth so something to research further. Another thing is that the Kia Soul EV is one of the more affordable EVs is a minimal thermal management system for its batteries something that an equivalent priced Nissan Leaf or Fiat 500e does not have.

Also you are right, one would have to go more towards $14000 to get a three year old Kia Soul EV right now (source https://www.autotempest.com)
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Old February 28th, 2020, 07:09   #5353
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Thanks for the link. I am betting that Kia is going to continue to bring more EVs and as such the support/qualified technicians is going to keep growing. The warranty on the battery is also attractive:100K miles or 10 years which ever comes first. How Kia treats their customers regarding this warranty I do not know telling you the truth so something to research further. Another thing is that the Kia Soul EV is one of the more affordable EVs is a minimal thermal management system for its batteries something that an equivalent priced Nissan Leaf or Fiat 500e does not have.

Also you are right, one would have to go more towards $14000 to get a three year old Kia Soul EV right now (source https://www.autotempest.com)
The Fiat 500e does have an active thermal management system consisting of a coolant loop through the battery, a 6 kW battery heater and a connection to the air conditioning system, just like its premium EV brothers. In my opinion, it's a very good EV if you don't mind a small car.
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Old February 28th, 2020, 14:11   #5354
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The Fiat 500e does have an active thermal management system consisting of a coolant loop through the battery, a 6 kW battery heater and a connection to the air conditioning system, just like its premium EV brothers. In my opinion, it's a very good EV if you don't mind a small car.
I appreciate the correction on the Fiat 500e! It is a tad on the smaller side for my taste as I think with the Kia Soul EV you might be able to fit certain oversize items (let's say from Home Depot or similar) that might not fit in the Fiat 500e.

I can also see that the Fiat 500e used can be bought real inexpensive like $8000 or so.
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Old February 29th, 2020, 08:34   #5355
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I appreciate the correction on the Fiat 500e! It is a tad on the smaller side for my taste as I think with the Kia Soul EV you might be able to fit certain oversize items (let's say from Home Depot or similar) that might not fit in the Fiat 500e.

I can also see that the Fiat 500e used can be bought real inexpensive like $8000 or so.
Let me know if you want some more info on the 500e. I have a 2013 that’s an excellent commuter and run-about. Paid $8k for it with a CPO warranty off-lease. It was one of the first off-lease vehicles to make it out of California.

Despite its small size, it’s pretty roomy inside for a couple of big adults. It even fits a third adult in the back seat. Cargo room is small but folding the back seats down allows it to carry quite a bit of stuff.

I recommend it very highly for a starter EV, in-town run-about or a car for young adults who you don’t want to get too carried away with their newfound freedom.
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