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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old February 4th, 2018, 14:22   #1
MB2VW
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Default Florida - Bio-diesel blends

I'm trying to avoid bio-diesel blends here in Florida as much as possible.

I noticed RacTrak has nebulous labeling on their diesel pumps claiming a B5 to B20 blend.

Shell, Wawa, Speedway doesn't have such labeling.

My concern is that these stations that don't label selling bio-diesel blends are. From what I can see, Florida hasn't enacted any bio-diesel mandates.

Asking the clerks at these fuel stations is an act a futility.

I'd like to have a list, so I can instruct my employees to steer clear of bio-diesel blends, but I have not been able to find any comprehensive lists.
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Old February 4th, 2018, 14:53   #2
tdiatlast
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Why the fear of bio-diesel blends? I'm curious.
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Old February 4th, 2018, 15:42   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdiatlast View Post
Why the fear of bio-diesel blends? I'm curious.
My thoughts too. Here in Wisconsin, biodiesel is as rare as hen's teeth. There was one bio-manufacturer that sold to the public and I would buy two 5 gal containers of B100 and blend it to B5 for my car. They since stopped producing so I'm stuck with straight D2. Low blends of biodiesel are actually better for your car as no additives you can add (according to the dated Spicer report) are better than bio for lubricity.

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Old February 4th, 2018, 16:38   #4
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Yeah, why the dislike for bio? My diesels (TDI and CRD) have all run BETTER on bio.

What is the risk factor you ask? Well, if you haven't run a high blend in a long time, it has the potential of running through your fuel system like liquid brillo and scouring off all manner of goo and nasty scum and stuffing it in your filter. This usually only happens once or twice (if you keep it up with the high bio) and then it will calm down. The other risk factor is cold temps, above B50 is a bad idea for less than 40*F, and clouding / gelling is possible below 32*F. B20 is generally OK down to about 20 or so, but B5 or B10 is OK overall in the same ranges as #2 Diesel. Actually, when the fuel is winterized with #1 or K1, having some bio may be helpful to put back some of that lost lubrication value!
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Old February 5th, 2018, 14:12   #5
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I couldn't care less, except how VW likes hanging HPFP failures at bad fuel.
Per 2015 VW owner's manual:
Quote:
Biodiesel use in vehicles registered in a state that has laws or regulations for biofuels
which may restrict the availability of biodiesel blends of B5 or less
Biodiesel is a domestically produced, clean-burning and renewable partial substitute for conventional
(petroleum) diesel fuel.
Your vehicle was originally designed to run on “ULSD” – Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel [ASTM D-975
standard Grade No. 2-D (S15)] that complies with ASTM D-975 specifications and permits up to a
maximum blend of 5 % biodiesel (B5).
In some states, laws or regulations for biofuels may restrict the availability of biodiesel blends of B5 or
less. If your vehicle is registered in one of these states, we want to assure you that Volkswagen will
continue to honor the terms and conditions of the Volkswagen Limited Warranties that came with your
vehicle. Use only Biodiesel from high quality sources, certified by the BQ-9000 label at the fuel station
and complying to ASTM D 7467 S15, B6 to B20.
Using diesel fuel with concentrations of methyl ester biodiesel higher than 20 % (B20), such as B100
is still contrary to the terms of your Emission warranties or any other Volkswagen Limited Warranty
and remains strictly prohibited.
Biodiesel blends (up to B20) may be used in your vehicle; however, please be aware that biodiesel
has characteristics that are different from other kinds of fuel, especially petroleum-based fuels.
Biodiesel can attract water and also deteriorate with age. Small amounts of biodiesel can get into the
engine oil, but unlike petroleum diesel, it does not evaporate over time. This can cause the oil level in
the engine to rise and can affect the quality of the oil.
􀁸 Routinely check the engine oil level. A good time to do this is when you refuel, especially if you
regularly do a lot of short distance or stop-and-go driving. This will help you see if the engine oil level
is getting higher. (A rising oil level beyond the maximum indicator means an oil change is needed due
to the dilution of the oil in the system; a potential characteristic of biodiesel use) ⇒ Engine oil.
􀁸 If you ever notice that the engine oil level has risen or is above the maximum indicator, contact
your authorized Volkswagen dealer, authorized Volkswagen Service Facility or Volkswagen Customer
CARE to schedule an oil change – regardless of the time or mileage that has elapsed since you last
had an oil change performed.
􀁸 Continue to follow the oil change intervals found in the Warranty and Maintenance booklet that
came with your vehicle, and use only engine oil that expressly complies with Volkswagen quality
standard VW 507 00.
􀁸 Refuel only at trusted, commercial fueling stations that are located near main highways. These
stations are more likely to have “fresh” biodiesel fuels that have not aged significantly.
􀁸 If your vehicle will be in storage (or not driven) for several weeks or months, please completely fill
the fuel tank. If possible, fill the tank with Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel [ASTM D-975 standard Grade
No. 2-D (S15)]
Since Florida isn't a mandated state, and VW isn't the easiest people to deal with on warranty claims, and my exposure is five 2015 units in my small business fleet, I thought it would be best to avoid the product.
There was a case in IL that was written up by a local paper that tipped me off on this matter.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...24-column.html
Maybe I'm to worried about this....
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Old February 5th, 2018, 14:41   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB2VW View Post
I couldn't care less, except how VW likes hanging HPFP failures at bad fuel.
Maybe I'm to worried about this....
Yes you are and how many documented HPFP issues have been attributed to biodiesel blends? Relax!
"He wanted me to know, however: "I've checked with Customer Care; we haven't heard of a flood of complaints about the use of B20 with TDI vehicles. In fact, it's one of those things I haven't really heard any issues about."

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Old February 9th, 2018, 05:38   #7
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This may be off topic, but do any of you in Florida see a decrease in mpg when running fuel with a bio blend?

I haven't had my Jetta long enough to test, but in my diesel Titan, I consistently see a 1-2 mpg drop when running fuel from Racetrack or WaWa.

As to HPFP failures, it seems from my time on the Nissan forums that the failures are not related to type of fuel as much as bad/ contaminated fuels.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 12:01   #8
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I do not live in Florida, but bio blends do have slightly less energy than straight D2, and most do experience some loss of fuel economy.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 21:03   #9
Geordi
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The potential loss in economy is usually made up for by a gain in lubricity and overall Cetane - I find the difference is often within the standard deviation of mileage tracking, even when filling my tank as fully as possible to completely full-to-the-lip as it is not always 100% possible to get all the air out and replace it with fuel.
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Old February 11th, 2018, 03:42   #10
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The article cited above in the Chicago Tribune is two years old. All pumps I've seen here in IL are labeled 5-20% biodiesel. As was mentioned, it's futile to try to find out what exactly is in the fuel. OTOH, we have been running fuel since the Passat was new in July '13 from pumps labeled this way (we fuel up mostly at Thornton's), and have no issues, and I haven't heard of any, either locally or on this forum.
In the interest of full disclosure, I run Power Service White year-round, dosed according to package directions.
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Old February 11th, 2018, 11:50   #11
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Thank's all for you feedback, much appreciated.

I will try to avoid, but I will have another beer, and try not to worry so much...

"Who am I to blow against the wind" - Paul Simon
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Old February 15th, 2018, 13:50   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB2VW View Post
I will try to avoid, but I will have another beer, and try not to worry so much...
Why try to avoid it? As said before The potential loss in economy is usually made up for by a gain in lubricity and overall Cetane.

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Old February 15th, 2018, 18:13   #13
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Default Po-tay-to / Po-tah-to

I don't have a CR, and one reason is a personal nervousness about using B99 / B100 in a CR, specifically because of the emission controls needed to (almost) manage the issues with petroleum diesel. Those petrodiesel emission treatments prevent the use of high bio blends.
Petrodiesel has a higher volatility than biodiesel. It vaporizes much more easily making it more flammable and prone to evaporation.
The oil level increase is due to the use of the injectors to add another shot of fuel long after any compression ignition could occur. This raw fuel (petro, or bio) stays liquid and gets on the cylinder walls when the piston is down and about to start up on the exhaust stroke. The raw fuel droplets that have not made contact go out the exhaust valve and turbo into the cat where the latent heat causes the fuel to ignite there. Without dirty petro diesel that needs the after burn, there is no need for the after burn.
So, yeah, the chosen emission controls needed for dirtier petro make it unsuited for cleaner bio.
Petrodiesel also has water issues, but the immiscibility means that the slug of water gets in at once when a quantity is reached, rather than being consumed before a concentration level is reached.
How's that for putting a spin on a counterpoint?
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Old February 15th, 2018, 19:10   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
I don't have a CR, and one reason is a personal nervousness about using B99 / B100 in a CR, specifically because of the emission controls needed to (almost) manage the issues with petroleum diesel. Those petrodiesel emission treatments prevent the use of high bio blends.
Petrodiesel has a higher volatility than biodiesel. It vaporizes much more easily making it more flammable and prone to evaporation.
The oil level increase is due to the use of the injectors to add another shot of fuel long after any compression ignition could occur. This raw fuel (petro, or bio) stays liquid and gets on the cylinder walls when the piston is down and about to start up on the exhaust stroke. The raw fuel droplets that have not made contact go out the exhaust valve and turbo into the cat where the latent heat causes the fuel to ignite there. Without dirty petro diesel that needs the after burn, there is no need for the after burn.
So, yeah, the chosen emission controls needed for dirtier petro make it unsuited for cleaner bio.
Petrodiesel also has water issues, but the immiscibility means that the slug of water gets in at once when a quantity is reached, rather than being consumed before a concentration level is reached.
How's that for putting a spin on a counterpoint?
Hey, Lug the op is wary of low Bio Blends and you come on preaching about B100, not the same at all. Are you trying to scare him from using a B5/20 blend?
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Old February 16th, 2018, 06:13   #15
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Also doesn't B100 suffer from the same issue of high NoX that they are already in trouble for cheating on?

I have used bio blends since late 2012 B5 to B20 with no issues at all. Hard to find anywhere that isn't this way. Some states don't even require labeling below a certain point so even that may not help you. Anything above B20 should be discouraged though. High bio blends are not for the common rails with exhaust treatment.
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