Transformer oil for fuel??

Joe_Meehan · Feb 22, 2011

I wonder if it would have some of the expected additives that our engines need.

BKmetz · Feb 22, 2011

Do diesel engines need:

Dielectric stability additives?

Arching and corona suppression additives?

Silicate additives?

Gassing additives? organic additives anthraquinone, benzophenone, and diphenyl

None of this stuff belongs in any fuel for a combustion engine. The allure of cheap fuel is clouding logic and reason.

This whole transformer oil as a diesel fuel thing is an extreme overreach. I'm this|close to adding transformer oil to the banned subject list.

Stop and think, and even do some research to find out what your playing with. Google is your friend.

Joe_Meehan said:
I wonder if it would have some of the expected additives that our engines need.

UFO · Feb 22, 2011

bluesmoker said:
perhaps the most environmentally irresponsible post i have read during my entire life here at the club

burning ANY pcbs leads to the production of dioxins and furans; two of the most toxic substances known to man

if you have any moral fibre you will stop using this crap today, now, immediately

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_oil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_dibenzo-p-dioxins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_dibenzofurans

+1

Don't do it.

nicklockard · Feb 22, 2011

BKmetz said:
Do diesel engines need:

Dielectric stability additives?

Arching and corona suppression additives?

Silicate additives?

Gassing additives? organic additives anthraquinone, benzophenone, and diphenyl

None of this stuff belongs in any fuel for a combustion engine. The allure of cheap fuel is clouding logic and reason.

This whole transformer oil as a diesel fuel thing is an extreme overreach. I'm this|close to adding transformer oil to the banned subject list.

Stop and think, and even do some research to find out what your playing with. Google is your friend.

I concur. Use of this substance in ANY diesel engine is phenomenally stupid.

jimmybling31 · Feb 22, 2011

you know when i came to this thread the first thing i thought was " those stability agents are so toxic that this could kill people" and yet the thread hasn't been closed with a sticky that says don't ever try it or post about it.

MayorDJQ · Feb 22, 2011

BKmetz said:
[snip]
The new transformers use PCB free oil. Older transformers are flushed and the new oil is PCB free. BUT, there are thousands and thousands of old transformers out there that still have PCBs in them. The EPA made using PCB treated oils illegal in 1979, but that does not mean that overnight all the utilities went out and flushed or replaced its transformers. Replacing small transformers and flushing large ones is done on an as needed basis so there are still a lot of transformers out there with PCB treated oil.

[snip]

As an aside, if you have utility poles with transformers mounted up there, those are 'wet' transformers that do contain oil. If you live in a more modern subdivision with underground electric service and you have those green transformer boxes humming at the end of the block, those are 'dry' transformers. There is no oil inside those.

Only plant oils are used for biodiesel and SVO/WVO.

I hope this dispels some of the misinformation.

aja8888 said:
Believe it or not, I still occasionally run across old PCB transformers in my project work now. Old oil fields that were electrified back in the 1940s - 1960s used lots of PCB type pole mounted transformers. Many have not been replaced or removed when wells went dry or were taken down and stored in a pipe yard.
One asset sale I worked on last year had a shed with scores of old transformers in it. The seller did not want to pay to have them sent to the Deer Park, TX incineration plant so the value of the asset was reduced to compensate for it.
There are still skeletons in the closet with respect to PCBs, but the numbers are dwindling.
Brian, thanks for the essay on the chemicals in PCBs (not my expertise).

I can attest to there still being PCB-containing and PCB-contaminated transformers out there. I work for an electric company in Massachusetts. During the New England "Ice Storm of '08" I came across a broken pole with a three-base transformer bank down in the parking lot of an old restaurant. They were the large garbage can sized cans that were 3 or 4 feet tall. All three transformers had broken open and the oil was everywhere. I was able to get close enough to see that there were no labels stating "PCB-Free" or "<50PPM PCBs". Clean Harbors was called in. The customer's front yard and parking lot had to be dug up and replaced. These transformers were on a main feeder, along a very busy road, so it was hard to believe that they hadn't been replaced or at least decontaminated.

As for dry transformers, the only ones I've ever seen are in the utility rooms of industrial customers that have 277/480V service or old delta services, where they need another transformer to get 120V for the offices. They look quite different from an ordinary pad mount.

I know the larger three-phase pad mounts are definitely oil filled, as I've reported several that I've found leaking over the years. I'll have to look more closely at our smaller single phase URD padmounts. I suppose it could vary from company to company.

BKmetz · Feb 22, 2011

I'll defer to you on the small pad transformers as that is the area I have the least experience with. Most of my work is with the big electrical generation stuff; 765KV, 345KV, 138KV, 34KV, 4KV, & 480KV.

MayorDJQ said:
As for dry transformers, the only ones I've ever seen are in the utility rooms of industrial customers that have 277/480V service or old delta services, where they need another transformer to get 120V for the offices. They look quite different from an ordinary pad mount.

I know the larger three-phase pad mounts are definitely oil filled, as I've reported several that I've found leaking over the years. I'll have to look more closely at our smaller single phase URD padmounts. I suppose it could vary from company to company.

b4black · Feb 22, 2011

BKmetz said:
Stop and think, and even do some research to find out what your playing with. Google is your friend.

I took your advice and googled it. Seems it's quite commonly used in diesel engines with success. The key is to know what the base oil is. Much of it is mineral oil (hydrocarbons). Some is even vegetable oil. Others are silicon based.

BKmetz · Feb 22, 2011

There are still those out there that want to believe the misinformation. I'm going to leave the thread open for now so the pros & cons of this 'alternative fuel' can be properly vetted out. I think there are more details of how toxic non-PCB transformer oil is that need to be fleshed out.

jimmybling31 said:
you know when i came to this thread the first thing i thought was " those stability agents are so toxic that this could kill people" and yet the thread hasn't been closed with a sticky that says don't ever try it or post about it.

b4black · Feb 22, 2011

manual_tranny said:
What sort of maniacally idiotic standards are you using to define "success"?
Oh wait, let me guess: IT RUNS WITHOUT BREAKING THE ENGINE. AMAZING!

Yep, using it for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems. What are your other concerns?

Somebody above asked how do they dispose of used (PCB-free) transformer oil? Anybody know?

b4black · Feb 22, 2011

BKmetz said:
There are still those out there that want to believe the misinformation. I'm going to leave the thread open for now so the pros & cons of this 'alternative fuel' can be properly vetted out. I think there are more details of how toxic non-PCB transformer oil is that need to be fleshed out.

Thanks for leaving it open. I'd like to here some more legitimate reasons not to use it and not just assumptions. If the base fuel is mineral oil, that part isn't bad. What exactly are the problems related to the additives? Most will be consumed by the combustion process.

manual_tranny · Feb 22, 2011

b4black said:
Yep, using it for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems. What are your other concerns?

manual_tranny · Feb 22, 2011

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/06/birds-dying-in-italy-thou_n_805541.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...alling-from-sky-bird-deaths-arkansas-science/

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/03/birds-bees-and-fish-why-are-so-many-ceratures-dying-in-2011/

But hey, why not just mess around with nature and see what happens?

Heck, lets all assume that this stuff is great for the environment. Lets burn it. Lets burn it ALL.

b4black · Feb 22, 2011

manual_tranny said:
Did you seriously read this thread before you posted?

I did. Obviously there is an issue with PCB oils, but the discussion moved beyond that a while ago. You must have missed that part while you were typing your rants.

We are now talking about non-PCB transformer oil.

How about you delete your posts and contribute meaningful discussion.

manual_tranny · Feb 22, 2011

Lol... if I were ranting you would know it!

I am sorry I misunderstood you, however I still disagree with you.

The idea that something is OK to burn until we know for sure that there will be negative consequences- absolutely does not work with my morality. Prove to me that the additives are as safe or safer to burn than diesel; then I'll talk about whether it has merits as a fuel.

BKmetz · Feb 22, 2011

BKmetz said:
Do diesel engines need:

Dielectric stability additives?

Arching and corona suppression additives?

Silicate additives?

Gassing additives? organic additives anthraquinone, benzophenone, and diphenyl

None of this stuff belongs in any fuel for a combustion engine. The allure of cheap fuel is clouding logic and reason.

This whole transformer oil as a diesel fuel thing is an extreme overreach. I'm this|close to adding transformer oil to the banned subject list.

Stop and think, and even do some research to find out what your playing with. Google is your friend.

b4black said:
Yep, using it for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems. What are your other concerns?

Somebody above asked how do they dispose of used (PCB-free) transformer oil? Anybody know?

Yes, in special high temperature incinerators. The flame-retardant additives have to be heated to at least 2500F for a certain time period so they can break down and combust. Diesel engines cannot do this.

b4black said:
Thanks for leaving it open. I'd like to here some more legitimate reasons not to use it and not just assumptions. If the base fuel is mineral oil, that part isn't bad. What exactly are the problems related to the additives?

Read my quote above. All the reasons mentioned in this thread are legitimate. The additives are very specialized to their intended purpose, which have nothing to do with being used as a fuel in any internal combustiuon engine.

Assumption #1: that if the oil is PCB free, then it's all good. WRONG! The replacement additives are just as bad, just as toxic.

Assumption #2: The guys who handle this stuff know what kind of oil they are working with. WRONG! All they know is if it is PCB free or not. They handle all the used transformer oil the same way. They do not know if the oil is paraffinic based, aromatic based, or silicone based. They do not know what additives are in it.

Then we get into the very complex chemistry of used transformer oil. The oil was removed for a reason. If a transformer had excessive gassing, that means the oil has broken down and contains a lot of corrosive impurities. The worst are copper sulfide compounds from reaction to the copper inside the transformer.

I'm going to try to contact some people within my industry to get more information. This will take some time. I can just imagine the horror when I tell them why I am inquiring about burning used transformer oil in a diesel engine.

manual_tranny · Feb 22, 2011

BKmetz said:
I'm going to try to contact some people within my industry to get more information. This will take some time. I can just imagine the horror when I tell them why I am inquiring about burning used transformer oil in a diesel engine.

Geez, yeah. I imagine it might even be a little embarrassing bringing the subject up at all!

UFO · Feb 22, 2011

b4black said:
I did. Obviously there is an issue with PCB oils, but the discussion moved beyond that a while ago. You must have missed that part while you were typing your rants. We are now talking about non-PCB transformer oil.

How about you delete your posts and contribute meaningful discussion.

And you know this stuff is PCB-free? How? And whether it is silicon-based? I have some old oil-based paint I need to get rid of -- would you like to put that in your fuel tank too?

nicklockard · Feb 22, 2011

b4black is always right. How dare you question His Kingly wisdom?!

Heretic!

b4black · Feb 22, 2011

nicklockard said:
b4black is always right. How dare you question His Kingly wisdom?!

You seem to have a habit of personally attacking me, but never supporting you position.

Here's an MSDS for transformer oil (just picked one randomly)
http://www.marcnelsonoil.com/MSDS_PDFs/Industrial_oils/transformer_oil.pdf

Intersting parts:

99+% Lubricant Base Oil (Petroleum)
This material is not considered hazardous according to OSHA criteria.

[FONT=Arial,Bold][FONT=Arial,Bold]Ingestion (Swallowing): [/FONT][/FONT]No harmful effects expected from ingestion.
[FONT=Arial,Bold][FONT=Arial,Bold]Hazardous Decomposition Products: [/FONT][/FONT]Combustion can yield carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide.

[*]This material does not contain any chemicals subject to the reporting requirements of SARA 302 and 40 CFR 372.
[*]
This material does not contain any chemicals which are known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm at concentrations that trigger the warning requirements of California Proposition 65.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing the danger here. It can be ingested without harmful effects, but burning it in an engine automatically makes it toxic? I realize we are now focusing in on the additives, but I'm not conviced that they will be bad, just because they weren't intended for diesel fuel. Most are organic and will be consumed by combustion. And they start out at ppm levels to begin with.

I'm not for or against this. Just trying to sort the facts from the opinion.
Bottom line is that we won't know for sure one way or the other without some serious emissions testing, which isn't going to happen.

BKmetz · Feb 22, 2011

For a guy who works in the oil refining industry, all I can say is you are incredible.

A diesel engine cannot burn it properly to burn off the additives.

b4black said:
Sorry, I'm just not seeing the danger here. It can be ingested without harmful effects, but burning it in an engine automatically makes it toxic? I realize we are now focusing in on the additives, but I'm not conviced that they will be bad, just because they weren't intended for diesel fuel. Most are organic and will be consumed by combustion. And they start out at ppm levels to begin with.

I'm not for or against this. Just trying to sort the facts from the opinion.
Bottom line is that we won't know for sure one way or the other without some serious emissions testing, which isn't going to happen.

manual_tranny · Feb 22, 2011

b4black said:
Sorry, I'm just not seeing the danger here. It can be ingested without harmful effects, but burning it in an engine automatically makes it toxic?

Wait... have you been drinking this stuff?

That might explain a lot!

b4black · Feb 22, 2011

manual_tranny said:
Wait... have you been drinking this stuff? That might explain a lot!

Well, it is mineral oil and mineral oil is a laxative. And laxatives are used by people who are full of.....

aja8888 · Feb 22, 2011

From the post with the MSDS:

That is only one MSDS for what ConocoPhillips calls transformer oil. It looks like one of their generic products. I would not hold that as gospel for all types of transformer oils out there.

Their MSDS could also be generated by ConocoPhillips for a type in which they could not obtain a MSDS for. Ask me how I know about things like this after 30+ years in the oil business.

I had an opportunity in the early 1990s to witness operational tests (along with some other work) on the two PCB incinerators that Rollins Environmental Services had permitted with the USEPA. Those units were quite complex and had an afterburner to ensure the emissions were incinerated beyond some very high temperature. At the time, they were disposing of the majority of PCBs in the lower 48.

I don't know if there were any heath effects studies done on what else was in the PCB-laden oil, but it would be interesting to find out. In any event, I have looked at way too many MSDS's and I know that OSHA and EPA allow for companies to not disclose the whole formula if the producer feels it is proprietary. In other words, stuff that is in it may not be readily evident.

Jack Frost · Feb 22, 2011

I simply shudder at the legal consequences to anyone found using transformer oil as fuel in this country.

We had a PCB fire here once http://archives.cbc.ca/on_this_day/08/23/

Here is another article on the same PCB fire (bolding is mine);

"By the time the ashes cooled, public attention was focussing not
only on the reamining wastes but the thousands of tonnes of other
PCBs stil in use or in storage awaiting destruction across Canada.
Since then federal and provincial governments have been tightening
the regulatory framework and increasing efforts to phase-out, safely
store and destroy PCBs. However, a deep public fear of these
chemicals sometimes blocks attempts at PCB destruction, particularly
incineration. The opposition flared up again this summer when PCB
wastes, including some from the Saint-Basile-le-Grand fire, were
shipped to Great Britain for incineration. Although Canada had sent
other PCBs to Britain for incineration and followed international
protocols in this case, the shipment was turned away by British
dockworkers. The wastes were brought back to Canada and unloaded
at Baie-Comeau, in the face of citizen protests, and at one point,
a court injunction. Soon after, the chemicals were trucked, under
police guard and against citizen blockades, to a Hydro-Quebec
storage sit at the nearby Manic-2 power project."

http://www.rxn.com/~uffda/archive/science/pcb.txt

Ifixit · Feb 23, 2011

Hmmm... I also know of someone that works in the energy busness and has been brining home unused clean transformer oil from work to burn in his waste oil fired boiler for a few years...
I always wondered about the oil additives although he sated is was pure mineral oil??
I will mention this to him again...

Lee_Taylor · Feb 23, 2011

b4black said:
Well, it is mineral oil and mineral oil is a laxative. And laxatives are used by people who are full of.....

You're not wrong there. This is the most half-witted idea I have ever seen on this forum.

Ski in NC · Feb 23, 2011

If you KNOW what is in the oil, you can make an intelligent decision on what to do with it. The problem with used xfmr oil is you have no idea what is actually in it. Geez.... scary.

smketrny · Feb 23, 2011

bluesmoker said:
define "safe"

the 50 ppm limit is strictly because of contamination of old transformers with pcb, they are refilled with "pcb free" but still contain toxic residues

this should not be used for fuel, period

Reread the thread. Seems the EPA defines under 50ppm as 'safe', not me.

Would I use it? No, definitely not in my 09 TDI, and not in my 89 N/A, even if I could. But with rising fuel costs, it seems any option thought of will come to mind to keep money in ones pocket. So if someone is offered oil to burn in a car, it is kind of similar to that 'wet paint' sign on a bench. Someone will touch it to see, so they will try and use 'free' oil.

I know enough about PCB's to avoid them. Even if one is marked "PCB" free, many of us in my field will still take the side of safety and play it like they are PCB's, 'safe' or not. And more when fire conditions are involved.

No doubt in the future on this site we will read of even more suggestions many will think of as crazy. But it seems many knowledgeable people in different fields have offered enough info on this subject to decide.

Many of us still say 'no', but some will say yes. It's human nature.

Which can be very scary at times........

john.jackson9213 · Feb 24, 2011

So how much $$ is saved by using 25% free transformer oil?

Is that amount of money worth potentially, possibly, maybe, harming someone?

Not to me. How about you?

Transformer oil for fuel??

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