09 and 10 TDI's Keep or Buy Back?

geez · Mar 6, 2017

I apologize...there are so many threads in here and I'm not finding the right one via my search verbiage.

I have an 09 TDI sportwagen auto. 151K
I have a 10 TDI jetta sedan stick. 151K

1. Does anyone know what the fix will be and the affects on performance and mpg?
2. Will the fix take up room in the trunk or the passenger foot area?
3. $5100 per to keep them.
4. $13K per to turn them in and we owe on them about 7K each.

1. Both HPFP's have been replaced by VW free just before they got caught in the emissions screw up.
2. Both have new AC pumps
3. Both have new Timing belts/water pumps at 125K
4. Both have $500 tinted windows
5. The Stick has a new Clutch too.

Which threads should I be learning from?

Thank you all!!!

miniion26 · Mar 6, 2017

Honest advice: turn them in. At this mileage, a HPFP failure will set you back thousands. Not to mention that the cars are 7 and 8 years old.
You could chose to keep one car, if you desire to do so, but think about getting a 2 Micron setup installed, just in case.
Again, this is just my opinion.

geez · Mar 6, 2017

Good points...here are more details.

miniion26 said:
Honest advice: turn them in. At this mileage, a HPFP failure will set you back thousands. Not to mention that the cars are 7 and 8 years old.
You could chose to keep one car, if you desire to do so, but think about getting a 2 Micron setup installed, just in case.
Again, this is just my opinion.

1. Both HPFP's have been replaced by VW free just before they got caught in the emissions screw up.
2. Both have new AC pumps
3. Both have new Timing belts/water pumps at 125K
4. Both have $500 tinted windows
5. The Stick has a new Clutch too.

Motodude · Mar 6, 2017

Had an 09, hpfp went out 3 times on that stupid thing. About every 40,000 miles. I would dump those things the first chance you get.

S2000_guy · Mar 6, 2017

Why don't you think about it this way?

(Buyback_amount - restitution_for_fix)/(1 + Sales_tax_rate) where a 10% sales tax rate is .10.

Would you pay this amount of money to buy the fixed car on the open market? Because that's the decision you're making.

GoFaster · Mar 6, 2017

The warranty on the fix changes that situation, though.

How much warranty do you have left on the HPFPs that were replaced?

If the warranty on the fix is anything like what it is on the Gen 3 (and it is expected to be), you'll get another 48,000 mi of warranty coverage after the fix gets applied. Using the formula supplied above, the car is basically "worth" about $7000. If the HPFP explodes 48,001 miles after the fix gets applied and the car is worth 0 at that point, essentially you are driving for about 14 cents per mile worth of depreciation and you are covered by a pretty good warranty during that time. In reality it's pretty unlikely that the HPFP would fail at exactly that point and it's pretty likely that you'll still have a running car after the extra warranty coverage has expired.

In my view it's pretty close to 6 of one, half-dozen of the other, in terms of buyback or fix.

If you get the fix applied, it will almost pay off your car loan, too. Driving the car for another 48,000 miles with warranty coverage and while not making payments sounds pretty good to me. And then you can still drive it for whatever it lasts past the end of the warranty even with the assumption that the car is worth nothing at that point.

geez · Mar 6, 2017

GoFaster

GoFaster said:
The warranty on the fix changes that situation, though.

How much warranty do you have left on the HPFPs that were replaced?

If the warranty on the fix is anything like what it is on the Gen 3 (and it is expected to be), you'll get another 48,000 mi of warranty coverage after the fix gets applied. Using the formula supplied above, the car is basically "worth" about $7000. If the HPFP explodes 48,001 miles after the fix gets applied and the car is worth 0 at that point, essentially you are driving for about 14 cents per mile worth of depreciation and you are covered by a pretty good warranty during that time. In reality it's pretty unlikely that the HPFP would fail at exactly that point and it's pretty likely that you'll still have a running car after the extra warranty coverage has expired.

In my view it's pretty close to 6 of one, half-dozen of the other, in terms of buyback or fix.

If you get the fix applied, it will almost pay off your car loan, too. Driving the car for another 48,000 miles with warranty coverage and while not making payments sounds pretty good to me. And then you can still drive it for whatever it lasts past the end of the warranty even with the assumption that the car is worth nothing at that point.

I'm feeling like dumping the 09 auto and keeping the 10 stick is looking best. The auto, when it needs replacing is probably 3-5K. Keeping the 10 and driving it to about 200K then selling it seems financially best. Maybe?

tvmaster · Mar 6, 2017

geez said:
I'm feeling like dumping the 09 auto and keeping the 10 stick is looking best. The auto, when it needs replacing is probably 3-5K. Keeping the 10 and driving it to about 200K then selling it seems financially best. Maybe?

we have a 2010 JSW, 82k lightly driven. One HPFP replaced under extended warranty due to scandal ($8200 if not), and one DPF at about 6k, which, is ready to be replaced again ($3200 - no warranty). So on a car that's 6.5 years old, which was $27k to buy, we've had nearly $14.5 in emissions failure costs (on paper).
Easy decision for us - take the money

geez · Mar 6, 2017

99.9%

Man...thank you all...it is financially looking best to off both of these TDI's. Take the money and go in a different direction.

daesania · Mar 6, 2017

I got rid of my 2010 jsw with 52k miles with no regrets at all.

meerschm · Mar 7, 2017

from: https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/871306/download

and as repeated several times here:

For Gen 1:
Quote:
3.2.1 Require the installation of a new exhaust flap, EGR filter, and NOx Trap
that meets the specifications of BASF TEX2064, as proposed by Settling Defendants to
EPA and CARB on January 28, 2016, or, subject to EPA/CARB approval, such other
functionally and effectively equivalent hardware or software, provided that Settling
Defendants propose such other hardware or software in the applicable Proposed
Emissions Modification.

above is the only real info we have on the fix for your cars (and mine)and a few reliable rumors that VW has millions of dollars worth of parts for the fix.

my advice would be to get the fix, take the incentive cash and pay off as much of your car loans as you can, and motor on. (saving car payments for the future)

I plan on getting the fix, and just went over 193,000 on my car.

When running numbers for options, include the cost of a new/different car. more sales tax, higher insurance, more car payments, unknown maintenance issues.

miniion26 · Mar 7, 2017

[/B]When running numbers for options, include the cost of a new/different car. more sales tax, higher insurance, more car payments, unknown maintenance issues.[/QUOTE]

This is good advice right there.

miniion26 · Mar 7, 2017

I took the money from my 2010 Jetta and purchased a W211 diesel. Best decision I ever made, car wise. Do not be afraid to go a different route.Right now exceptional cars can be had for very little money.

compu_85 · Mar 7, 2017

IMHO I'd wait to see what the extended warranty is going to be. If they offer 120,000 miles of coverage, like on the 15s, it might make the most $$ sense to get the fix done.

-J

DanB36 · Mar 7, 2017

compu_85 said:
IMHO I'd wait to see what the extended warranty is going to be.

The minimum extended warranty is 10 yrs/120k miles from new, or 4 yrs/48k miles from the fix, for Gen1 and Gen2 cars. If, and when, they get the fix approved and installed on your car. Which may never happen.

chief poncho · Mar 7, 2017

Here's my 2 cents, since you asked with a little financial analysis thrown in.

1. Assuming a fix is approved and you keep both cars you get $10,200 for your trouble, plus an additional 4yr/48k warranty on all of the major engine components and emissions components including the HPFP, turbo, short block, egr, etc. You still have the same two cars you started with, both being high mileage 7 and 8 year old cars respectively. You can payoff the loan on one of the cars and still have $3,000 leftover to put away for repairs or whatever you want later.

2. Sell both cars back to VW for a net gain of $26k - $14k outstanding loans = $12k in your pocket and no debt. You most likely aren't going to find two used cars that are equal or better to what you currently have for $6k a piece. You could use the $12k towards a single new car and reduce your payment, but if you need two vehicles this still doesn't fix your problem.

3. Again assuming a fix is approved, sell one back and keep the other. You would net $6k from selling one car back (buyback - loan) and pocket another $5,100 for the other. Granted you still have a loan on one of them. Again you get the extended warranty and still I assume own a car you seem to like. In this scenario, you would still have $11,100 to put down on another vehicle or you could purchase a nice used vehicle for that price as a replacement. IMO, financially for you, this may make the most sense. You could essentially eliminate $7k in debt and replace one of the TDI's with a used, but newer, lower mileage vehicle. Even if you decided to buy another brand new car, and applied the $11k towards the downpayment, you most likely would still not increase your current monthly payments.

If you need to have two cars, I think choice 3 is the best choice. If you only need one car, then it is still the best choice, because you eliminate $7k of your debt, have $11k left over and still have a car to drive. You could pay off the 2nd car and still have $4k in cash leftover, thus completely eliminating your debt.

If you are ready to move on to something else, then the choice becomes more about what you want than what makes the most financial sense. Personally, if I really liked the 2010 stick, I'd keep it and sell the 2009 back.

However, if a fix is not approved, your only option may be to sell both back or forgo any compensation if you decide to keep them.

DanB36 · Mar 7, 2017

chief poncho said:
1. Assuming a fix is approved and you keep both cars you get $10,200 for your trouble, plus an additional 4yr/48k warranty on all of the major engine components and emissions components including the HPFP, turbo, short block, egr, etc.

The warranty actually covers the long block.

k1xv · Mar 7, 2017

Normally, in most cases, I recommend selling the cars back. But in your case, you have relatively new timing belts and HPFPs. Assuming there is nothing else wrong, you should be good to go with the modification, particularly with the enhanced warranty.

You get $5100 each to keep, and $13,000 each to sell. (Forget about what you owe. You owe that money either way.....except as I mention later). So, basically, to sell your car, you get $7900 more. That is really what is at stake in your decision.

Now, if you sell, you will have to replace the cars with something. You will be left with $6000 per car after you pay off the loans. To buy replacement cars, you are going to have to come up with a fair amount of cash, or newer, bigger loans, to finance the purchase.

On the other hand, if you keep the cars, you have nothing out of pocket, and you will get $5100 to apply to your $7000 car loans. Essentially, the ability to keep your cars, but get rid of the bulk of the debt associated with them.

As it appears, from your description, that the cars have been well maintained, I would keep them.

Of course, if no fix is ever approved, you may have no choice but to sell.

IndigoBlueWagon · Mar 7, 2017

No one here has the information you need to make a decision. If you're willing to drive and maintain the cars until the fix is available or you're told it's not going to happen, then you could do that. If for any reason you're unable or unwilling to drive the cars until that information emerges, then turn them in. Everything in this and other threads is speculative.

turbobrick240 · Mar 7, 2017

It seems to me that once a car has experienced the first hpfp failure, the odds of future failures go up exponentially. As evidenced by many with 2 or more failures vs. the majority of owners who never have a failure.

tvmaster · Mar 7, 2017

meerschm said:
from: https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/871306/download

and as repeated several times here:

For Gen 1:
Quote:
3.2.1 Require the installation of a new exhaust flap, EGR filter, and NOx Trap
that meets the specifications of BASF TEX2064, as proposed by Settling Defendants to
EPA and CARB on January 28, 2016, or, subject to EPA/CARB approval, such other
functionally and effectively equivalent hardware or software, provided that Settling
Defendants propose such other hardware or software in the applicable Proposed
Emissions Modification.

above is the only real info we have on the fix for your cars (and mine)and a few reliable rumors that VW has millions of dollars worth of parts for the fix.

my advice would be to get the fix, take the incentive cash and pay off as much of your car loans as you can, and motor on. (saving car payments for the future)

I plan on getting the fix, and just went over 193,000 on my car.

When running numbers for options, include the cost of a new/different car. more sales tax, higher insurance, more car payments, unknown maintenance issues.

That's good advice we did: insurance on three, NEW alternatives were the same as the 6.5 year old VW. Guess they know something about repair costs. Sales tax is a drag - we all should have had that refunded if we took the buyout. With KIA, for example, FIVE years bumper to bumper. Losing the VW still makes sense.

tvmaster · Mar 7, 2017

DanB36 said:
The minimum extended warranty is 10 yrs/120k miles from new, or 4 yrs/48k miles from the fix, for Gen1 and Gen2 cars. If, and when, they get the fix approved and installed on your car. Which may never happen.

and it is rather hard to trust them, you know? If the fix were available today, that would help. But as you say, it may never be. A bird in the hand....

CHawk · Mar 7, 2017

IndigoBlueWagon said:
No one here has the information you need to make a decision. If you're willing to drive and maintain the cars until the fix is available or you're told it's not going to happen, then you could do that. If for any reason you're unable or unwilling to drive the cars until that information emerges, then turn them in. Everything in this and other threads is speculative.

+1

If you're asking the question, then you might as well keep the cars until you get some clarity on the nature of the fix (if any).

One thing to keep in mind with fix versus buyback: with the fix, you get restitution, partial warranty, and the (repaired) vehicle. With buyback, you get restitution, vehicle value plus transaction costs, and up to 3 years of depreciation-free driving (since value is pegged at September 2015). For many of us, the buyback is a no brainer, especially those of us whose transportation needs have changed since we bought our cars (I'm only driving about 4,000 miles a year now--I don't need a TDI).

The most important question: what will you do if you sell one or both of them back? If you need two vehicles, what will you get to replace them? That's a question only you can answer taking into account your financial situation and transportation needs going forward.

geez · Mar 7, 2017

Meerschm

meerschm said:
from: https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/871306/download

and as repeated several times here:

For Gen 1:
Quote:
3.2.1 Require the installation of a new exhaust flap, EGR filter, and NOx Trap
that meets the specifications of BASF TEX2064, as proposed by Settling Defendants to
EPA and CARB on January 28, 2016, or, subject to EPA/CARB approval, such other
functionally and effectively equivalent hardware or software, provided that Settling
Defendants propose such other hardware or software in the applicable Proposed
Emissions Modification.

above is the only real info we have on the fix for your cars (and mine)and a few reliable rumors that VW has millions of dollars worth of parts for the fix.

my advice would be to get the fix, take the incentive cash and pay off as much of your car loans as you can, and motor on. (saving car payments for the future)

I plan on getting the fix, and just went over 193,000 on my car.

When running numbers for options, include the cost of a new/different car. more sales tax, higher insurance, more car payments, unknown maintenance issues.

Meerschm, thank you!
I'm I to understand that they do have a fix for my vehicles based on what you quoted?
That is very helpful information...I keep hearing, including from the stealership, that there is no fix yet.
Thank you again!

geez · Mar 7, 2017

Chief...

chief poncho said:
Here's my 2 cents, since you asked with a little financial analysis thrown in.

1. Assuming a fix is approved and you keep both cars you get $10,200 for your trouble, plus an additional 4yr/48k warranty on all of the major engine components and emissions components including the HPFP, turbo, short block, egr, etc. You still have the same two cars you started with, both being high mileage 7 and 8 year old cars respectively. You can payoff the loan on one of the cars and still have $3,000 leftover to put away for repairs or whatever you want later.

2. Sell both cars back to VW for a net gain of $26k - $14k outstanding loans = $12k in your pocket and no debt. You most likely aren't going to find two used cars that are equal or better to what you currently have for $6k a piece. You could use the $12k towards a single new car and reduce your payment, but if you need two vehicles this still doesn't fix your problem.

3. Again assuming a fix is approved, sell one back and keep the other. You would net $6k from selling one car back (buyback - loan) and pocket another $5,100 for the other. Granted you still have a loan on one of them. Again you get the extended warranty and still I assume own a car you seem to like. In this scenario, you would still have $11,100 to put down on another vehicle or you could purchase a nice used vehicle for that price as a replacement. IMO, financially for you, this may make the most sense. You could essentially eliminate $7k in debt and replace one of the TDI's with a used, but newer, lower mileage vehicle. Even if you decided to buy another brand new car, and applied the $11k towards the downpayment, you most likely would still not increase your current monthly payments.

If you need to have two cars, I think choice 3 is the best choice. If you only need one car, then it is still the best choice, because you eliminate $7k of your debt, have $11k left over and still have a car to drive. You could pay off the 2nd car and still have $4k in cash leftover, thus completely eliminating your debt.

If you are ready to move on to something else, then the choice becomes more about what you want than what makes the most financial sense. Personally, if I really liked the 2010 stick, I'd keep it and sell the 2009 back.

However, if a fix is not approved, your only option may be to sell both back or forgo any compensation if you decide to keep them.

Thank you Chief Poncho!!!

Your options are spot on for us and helped with clarity. After reading all of the posts, we will wait to hear if a fix even comes, and then go for "Curtain #3 Bob" keeping the 10 stick (I love that vehicle).

Thank you for helping sort out too many unfocused thoughts!!! Thank you all!!!

Again, I love tdiclub.com for so many reasons...all stem from intillegent people.

Motodude · Mar 7, 2017

The last time our hpfp failed there were 2 other ones at the dealership w failures. One was brand new and only had 1800 miles when it failed and the other was a 2nd failure that happened 8200 miles after being replaced. I could not see any situation that makes it worth it to keep either of those turds but this is coming from a guy that has been thru 4 hpfp failures.

geez · Mar 7, 2017

A thousand thank you's!!!

I appreciate more than words can express, value the opinions of others here, and will always look for help here from the VERY intelligent community that is tdiclub.com

The sage opinions in several directions helped my brain filled with "mush, frustration, and a bit overwhelmed," find clarity.

Thank you all!!!

Galo · Mar 7, 2017

Motodude said:
The last time our hpfp failed there were 2 other ones at the dealership w failures. One was brand new and only had 1800 miles when it failed and the other was a 2nd failure that happened 8200 miles after being replaced. I could not see any situation that makes it worth it to keep either of those turds but this is coming from a guy that has been thru 4 hpfp failures.

Question for you Californians: is B2 the requisite, mandated fuel in California or is there no mandate for diesel fuel to have a minimum percentage of bio?

I ask because it seems that a very large number of VW diesels with grenaded HPFPs are in Cali and very rare here in Orygun where the very-good-lubricity B2 is mandated, so I was wondering what fuel Cali runs. I've 110k miles on my car and still on the factory HPFP, DPF, everything. Hell, even the front brake pads are the ones that came with the car....

Back OT, my answer if to the 'keep it or not question' is 'it depends'. If the fix does not materially impact fuel mileage or performance, I keep my 2010 6mt, currently at 110k miles. I'll use the $5.1k for timing belt, new suspension including GLI springs and a stiffer RSB, fixing my crapped out radio and new tires. If the fix futzes the car up, I'll change my mind and have VW buy it back.

I love my car and don't want a 2nd car payment, so....keeping it would be my 1st choice, but that will depend on 'da fix' and what it entails & results in.

meerschm · Mar 8, 2017

geez said:
Meerschm, thank you!
I'm I to understand that they do have a fix for my vehicles based on what you quoted?
That is very helpful information...I keep hearing, including from the stealership, that there is no fix yet.
Thank you again!

VW described this fix in a letter to the EPA/CARB the end of January 2016.

We found out from the excerpt of a court document in June 2016.

We have seen an Audi dealer training video that describes a fix consistent with the quote, and have seen reliable rumors that VW has spent $10 Million on parts for the gen 1 fix, and that we should see the fix soon.

what is still not known is how the testing went, what, if any impact to emissions and performance (including mpg) and when we will see the final approval.

Your dealer is accurate that they do not yet have parts on the shelf, and charge codes to do the work.

GoFaster · Mar 8, 2017

If everyone stayed on the originally-described schedule then it should be known sometime this month whether there is an approved fix for the Gen 1 cars. If someone is on the fence contingent on whether a fix gets approved or not, hang in there!

09 and 10 TDI's Keep or Buy Back?

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