2009 2.0 140 CR tuning .. going beyond the software

if you're interested in what I've done to my car so far, the history of the car, etc., please check the link in my sig for details before asking questions. I update that page regularly to match current info.

first, I've had Revo software on the car since November. I know my Revo dealer well and was talking to him about a few minor issues I had noticed. He talked to Revo and they mentioned having some updated software, but they suggested that I take my car into a VW dealer first to have my ECU's software updated to the latest available for my car. I then took the car back to the Revo dealer, who passed the new software code on to Revo. Revo stated they'd never seen the code before so they had us scan the ECU and send them the file. A month later Revo got back to my dealer and told us that VW had updated my ECU to the ~2009.5 & later software, which is locked out. So now the ECU needs to be benched. I expect to take the car in today to have it rescanned and then we'll go from there.

So that's where the car sits right now. I've tracked and autocrossed the car a few times and am looking for ways to work on increasing the power while maintaining daily driver reliable status. I've averaged around 30k miles each year on this car, and I'd like to continue to be able to do so for the foreseeable future. I'm not looking for or expecting huge numbers.. I'm looking for something that can get the whp up to around the 170 - 190hp range, and ft-lb torque above 300 to the wheels.

One thing I will be doing at some point is working on limiting heat soak issues. Whether this means upgrading the intercooler or just spraying something onto or into the system to keep it cool.. I don't really care. I just want to work on limiting issues with the car getting slower as it's being used throughout the day.

Has anyone here done more work on these engines beyond software tuning, exhaust, and removing emissions parts yet? I'd like to try and upgrade the injectors, similar to what the 170hp European version sees, but I'm figuring that this will require custom software as well?

That's my basic question though. It's not easy searching for 2.0 CR specific threads on a site that's mostly dealing with mk4's and 1.9L engines. If you know of any existing threads that might help I'd love for the links. Are there suggestions for who I could call or talk to who might have some experience with these engines? Has anyone done this at all?

Most every 2.0 CR car I've seen online has had only the basic work done: software, pulley, software tuning, intake, exhaust, dpf removal. I won't be removing the dpf any time soon, and I'm well aware that intake & exhaust will do mostly nothing for the car. I'm looking for some real answers... or maybe just a lot of people who can tell me that no one's done this yet

the car:

These cars are very software friendly once you crack the ecu. Most do 30 bhp gains with chip alone. The exhaust is a really big power robber, but I understand you want to keep it intact(were I live, emissions are a necessity). I suspect some great gains are had in head work, though this isnt cheap. If you look at the ports, and the valve pockets, you will wonder how these engines make the power that they make now. Check with your tuner and see if they can give you the euro tunes and still stay within USA emissions.

rootrider said:

I'm looking for something that can get the whp up to around the 170 - 190hp range, and ft-lb torque above 300 to the wheels.

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rootrider said:

That's my basic question though. It's not easy searching for 2.0 CR specific threads on a site that's mostly dealing with mk4's and 1.9L engines. Has anyone done this at all?

Click to expand...

There is a 2010 Jetta 2.0 TDI 169.9whp/334.32wtq dyno chart and video, see the blue Facebook button in my signature. Can't post details here because tampering with emissions equipment in new TDIs is discouraged by the TDIClub staff, which is understandable. The smoke is still very small compared to most 170whp TDIs here.

This is an old dyno video of a 2009 Jetta 2.0L TDI manual with its emissions system fully intact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gULtk0b4vRA . No smoke at all with the DPF/cat still in place. The only mod is an ECU tune. Without line smoothing 168 whp and 315 wtq is the result, again just 2whp shy of your goal. Can make at least 175whp with ease, but it's not practical in the real world as it can keep hitting the 1650+ F EGT limiter in 3rd gear. Airflow improvements is recommended if more power is desired. Also, a different and more optimistic dyno 20 minutes away here (Dyno Dynamics) can actually add another 10-15whp to this car.

I have a client in North America with a 2011 Jetta MK6 TDI and upgraded injectors are going in soon (bigger than 170hp injectors). They tried fitting a GTB2260VK turbo a couple weeks ago but no luck yet. Hoping to see progress this Summer!

In Europe a 170HP TDI was tuned with GTB2260VK turbo and it made 235bhp. That translates to roughly 200-205whp. Stock rail pressure and virtually no smoke. The stock 170HP injectors can't flow much more fuel. We must install larger injectors or start raising the rail pressure if this client wants more than 240-245bhp.

Cheers,
Mark

I had the kinds of numbers you're talking about already with mine with just the chip (Malone stage 2 is 184/335). The exhaust and intake can help with heat management, but are you sure heat soak is an issue? The stage 2 tune only raised my intake pressure by 1 psi, so charge air by roughly 10 degrees, with the DPF out of the engine compartment, under hood temps and EGT's are both lower.

A few cars out there are running around now with GTB2260VK's and aftermarket injectors. Haven't actually seen numbers for them though. Probably around 230/375. That's around $2k worth of bolt ons though.

I'm fairly sure heat soak has been an issue.. yeah. I don't have anything to back that up other than my own experiences though. On ~60F and higher days, and often above 1500 - 2000', the car slows down quite a bit after being pushed for a while. I've given the engine some pretty good floggings, including on the track, and it's been pretty reproducible. I'll admit that the higher altitude may play a part in this, but in my experience the ECU has compensated pretty quickly, to the point where I've had similar power at 5000 - 9000' as I'm used to having at sea level.

Mark.. I've seen a couple mentions of the ~170whp range being reached with software & deleted dpf. I'm happy to know that at least a couple of people have made similar power without deleting any of the emissions system. Is software available now that would work well with larger injectors on this engine? That's something I would definitely be interested in working on this year.

also, it looks like the dyno in that video might be reading a lot higher than the one I've been using (a Mustang dyno). My stock numbers were 126hp/212ft-lb.. quite a bit lower than what is reported there.

When you felt the power limitation, did you also hear or feel any oscillation? Most 2009-2011 TDIs bouncing off the EGT limiter has a subtle oscillation sound or feel.

Also, traction control is a major issue according to the 2010-2011 TDI owners who actually race their cars on a track. Need to pull fuses to disable traction control properly but that throws fault codes.

If you're looking for a 44-64whp gain (from that 126hp baseline) or more accurately a 42% gain (e.g. 126hp->180hp on your Mustang dyno, 133hp->190hp on our Mustang dyno), then you will likely need a bigger turbo at least. Not sure if headwork (porting & cam) will suffice but it would be interesting to try.

I don't think increasing fuel alone (by upgrading the injectors) is a good solution as I can't see that helping the EGT issue. A restrictive turbo and/or a restrictive DPF may be contributing to high EGT. We will experiment with just upgraded injectors soon.

Installing the turbo and potentially higher flowing (lower EGT) DPF from a 170HP TDI seems like a good idea, but that isn't bolt-on (vacuum vs. electronic VNT actuation is one problem).

Thanks Mark.. wishing you had made it to the Lake Stevens GTG last Saturday

when you say 'oscillation', are you referring to a throttle response that isn't very smooth? It'd be tough for me to answer that since when I'm driving in a way where this issue comes into play I'm usually pushing the car enough to lose some traction while accelerating out of a turn, or the road is bumpy enough to cause some traction issues. I've never considered the throttle to be very smooth on my car anyway, with or without the Revo software.

I have experienced a sort of blip in the throttle when wide open somewhere in the middle of the rev range.. usually in 3rd gear.. where the throttle drops for a split second before coming back on. This was much more apparent when we tried to dyno it with the Revo software.. but the issue appeared to go away when we used the dyno to turn the rear wheels as well (this had the affect of decreasing power output quite a bit.. so maybe this drop in power eliminated the momentary power drop we were seeing?).

I would be very happy if I could get close to the 170hp mark.. meaning a roughly 40hp gain.

Thanks for the other information. It's all new to me.. so anything is helpful. Are you aware of any turbo upgrade that could bolt on to the existing manifold & piping in these cars? What other work are you expecting to do on the car where the injectors and turbo are being upgraded (new piping? anything else?).

I have yet to get a good run with the Revo software on the same dyno I have used before (due to the above mentioned issue). I am expecting to see about 145 - 150hp on that dyno.. so an extra 20hp beyond that would be great, if possible.

Timeline-wise, I'm going to Europe in August so all of my current money is going toward that. Once I come back I'll start looking into spending money on the car again. Because of this I obviously don't need answers now, but if you do have any reasonable guess as to what sort of reliable power can be made without the removal of the dpf or working on the head then what mod-path would you suggest right now?

Bump for an old thread.

Any updates in tuning or adding another turbo to a 2.0L CR?

-P.

heh.. I'll be checking back in here some time next year when I'm ready to start playing with my engine more. Hopefully there's more information and more examples of what others have done to their cars by then

reading your blog of your JSW, looks like you also had the icy intercooler issue many have had. There's now a TSB with a fix for it. It's number 21 11 01 / 2025464 dated May 24, 2011, titled "Frozen Charge Air Cooler – Engine Will Not Start". It calls for installing a 1K0-198-803-B Cold Weather Intercooler Kit. Maybe you can get the dealer to do it for you.

Me and a dutch forum member did tests with both 140cr and 170cr engines, and we concluded the same thing. 190BHP with a 140cr is not safe because the EGT is higher then 850° and the ecu pulls fueling when that happends. This results in a powerdrop at 3800. So the only way to make 190BHP without the powerdrop with this engine is by raising the EGT limiter. We allso tested with DPF delete and the EGT wasnt much lower ( i allmost dare to say nothing at all). We feel that 180BHP is the max safe power that this 140cr will do with an EGT less then 850°.

The max safe power the 170cr will make is 205-206BHP ....

Did any of you guy's had the chance to log EGT on those 170WHP cars?

What if you just swap the 170cr turbocharger onto the 140cr motor? Apparently, the injectors and rail pressure are the same on all the Euro 2.0cr engines (120, 140, 170). The only difference between the 170cr engine and the other two engines appears to be the clutch and turbo.

Ash

K.I.T.T. said:

What if you just swap the 170cr turbocharger onto the 140cr motor? Apparently, the injectors and rail pressure are the same on all the Euro 2.0cr engines (120, 140, 170). The only difference between the 170cr engine and the other two engines appears to be the clutch and turbo.

Ash

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Do you have a source for this information? The reason I ask is that I've talked to people who have CR170 injectors and they wouldn't even be a straight bolt in upgrade to the CR140, suggesting different injectors and head at the very least. We also know for a fact that the CR170 uses a bigger turbo than the CR140. Finally, after talking with someone who's gotten a whole CR170 long block and is planning a big power build about my future plans, he suggested I look into going the same route he did, since the block is more robust.

I am talking about the Euro engines. I've got a hunch the US 140cr may have different injectors than the Euro engine.

IIRC, Ruben posted this info some time ago. He managed to squeeze around 220bhp out of his 120cr engine with a tune, dpf delete and 170cr turbo. I'll see if I can find the original post.

Ash

Update
Here ya go:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2960219&postcount=5

I thought the TDI cup cars (the racing class) were stock CR140 cars with a different ECU. Otherwise stock turbo, DPF, etc.. and made 175 hp.

When you say the CR170 block is more robust, are you talking about the whole block or different rods/pistons? I thought they were the same CR.

In typical VW fashion, I doubt we will need to worry about breaking bottom ends until we surpass the 250hp mark.

Brendan

K.I.T.T. said:

I am talking about the Euro engines. I've got a hunch the US 140cr may have different injectors than the Euro engine.

IIRC, Ruben posted this info some time ago. He managed to squeeze around 220bhp out of his 120cr engine with a tune, dpf delete and 170cr turbo. I'll see if I can find the original post.

Ash

Update
Here ya go:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2960219&postcount=5

Click to expand...

Gotcha, the specs for the injectors are the same. across the board for Europe.

Lord_Verminaard said:

I thought the TDI cup cars (the racing class) were stock CR140 cars with a different ECU. Otherwise stock turbo, DPF, etc.. and made 175 hp.

When you say the CR170 block is more robust, are you talking about the whole block or different rods/pistons? I thought they were the same CR.

In typical VW fashion, I doubt we will need to worry about breaking bottom ends until we surpass the 250hp mark.

Brendan

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The TDI cup cars are running an off the shelf CBBB engine, complete with emissions components. These engines are common in Europe but have never undergone emissions certification for the US (which is why we get hosed on great cars like the CC TDI, which I totally would have bought). The rods and pistons are different on the CBBB compared the the CBEA but I'm not clear on other differences yet. This is still early research for me, though others have done quite a bit more. Incidentally, I was planning a build well beyond that 250 hp mark, though now I'm debating on just building a dedicated toy and leaving the VW super reliable. Either way, still planning on the AWD swap towards the end of this year or early next year.

Our Superb runs the 2.0 CR TDI 170 and its rated at 200bhp with just a remap - ours has got exhaust and uprated air filter on it as well but its having huge issues with its DPF keep cutting in - at the moment its more or less permanently bouncing between limp-home mode and reduced power mode so its actually getting very annoying.

Aren`t Revo working on unlocking the MED17 ECU? I know we have a tuner in the UK who can apparently do them - its been done to a few Skoda`s on the owners forum that I am a member of, including some of the Yeti`s (one of which is a MY2010/11 i think)

If only they'd put the 2.0cr engine in the new Polo, I would have got one. Stupid VAG, the new Ibiza got the 2 litre engine, but the Polo has to make do with the 90ps 1.6l engine

Ash

Might happen now the Mini SD has come out - thats got the 2.0 TDi 140 in it!

K.I.T.T. said:

What if you just swap the 170cr turbocharger onto the 140cr motor? Apparently, the injectors and rail pressure are the same on all the Euro 2.0cr engines (120, 140, 170). The only difference between the 170cr engine and the other two engines appears to be the clutch and turbo.

Ash

Click to expand...

US spec injectors are in fact different than the European versions.

I will see if I can get the PN's later for you.

Mark@MaloneTuning said:

There is a 2010 Jetta 2.0 TDI 169.9whp/334.32wtq dyno chart and video, see the blue Facebook button in my signature. Can't post details here because tampering with emissions equipment in new TDIs is discouraged by the TDIClub staff, which is understandable. The smoke is still very small compared to most 170whp TDIs here.

This is an old dyno video of a 2009 Jetta 2.0L TDI manual with its emissions system fully intact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gULtk0b4vRA . No smoke at all with the DPF/cat still in place. The only mod is an ECU tune. Without line smoothing 168 whp and 315 wtq is the result, again just 2whp shy of your goal. Can make at least 175whp with ease, but it's not practical in the real world as it can keep hitting the 1650+ F EGT limiter in 3rd gear.



Cheers,
Mark

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Why 1650F? The limit on that turbine is 1040C sustained or 1900F. I see no reason why that motor cannot safely run at 1700-1850F with a time limit of 30 seconds at 1900F (conservative). Typically for these alloys in turbine applications a temperature deviation north of the sustained limit typically falls to around 2 minutes and 50-75C beyond the sustained limit (strictly a wag).

Also depending on the EGR in the tune, this can further limit (reduce) the EGT's generated in the bowl, FWIW the combustion temperatures in the bowl are north of 4,400F just in case one of the "Aluminum melts at XXXF" guys want to chime in.

There are other factors to consider, but 1650F was a VNT-15/17 limitation. The higher temperature alloys were employed starting in the PD KP series turbos and adopted by Garrett around the same time.

Newer alloys are in the works that are approaching 1250C sustained...

Just throwing that out there as a possibility to raising the peak power (safely) without exceeding any of the component limits.

there are a few threads on this forum now talking about Revo being closed to releasing a v2 or stage 2 software that raises the EGT limit. I'm looking forward to hearing some technical information on this (what they've changed to increase the power safely)

Drivbiwire said:

Why 1650F? The limit on that turbine is 1040C sustained or 1900F.

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The stock EGT limiter in a 2010 CR 2.0L TDI ECU is around 800C (1472F) and I have raised it as high as 900C (1652F) in a customer's aggressive tune. I did not say that 900C should be the limit, but that is already a pretty big bump from the factory limit. 1040C is much, much higher that I'm not willing to experiment with yet, unless a customer wants to.

So does stage 2 boost the egt limit mark?

Remember back in those days with my first 2009 CRD tune... the egt sensor went fried but was it from factory. That was the question... If you look for EGT while doing a recycle(regen) you will notice that you can rise the temps a little without ecu limiting the fuel all the time.

@Savageman69 Yes our Stage 2 tune raises the EGT limit by 50-100C depending on the customer. The first Stage 2 tune installed in March 2009 has a 900C limit (raised from 800C) and it still runs great to this day. That car still has a stock exhaust system so it runs a bit hotter than a straight-thru exhaust setup too.

Okay so with the egt limit raised there is no power loss issues or anything?.....I probably will go full exhaust at the same time anyway specially seeing you guys are starting to produce exhaust now to. Just trying to figure out if theres any issues i may expect

Also is the cr experiencing any boost creep with full large piped exhaust like the pds do?

Drivbiwire said:

US spec injectors are in fact different than the European versions.

I will see if I can get the PN's later for you.

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What engine codes do you guys have in the US?

Note the Euro 110ps (CBDC), 140ps (CBAA, CBAB) and 170ps (CBBB) engines use identical injectors, part no. 03L 130 277

Another 140ps engine, CJAA, uses 03L 130 277 A. Not sure how this differs from the other part no.

Ash

Engine code CJAA, smaller nozzle design, lower flow. Actual targe hole sizes were 112um vs the 124um for the European versions.

PN for European spec TDI's are: 03L 130 277

For European cars the VW PN# converted to Bosch are the following options:
0 445 116 005
0 445 116 004
0 445 116 030
0 445 116 029
0 986 435 360

For US production models the VW PN#: 03L 130 277 A US Spec Injectors
0 445 116 011
0 445 116 010

Thanks for clearing that up.

Was wondering what engine CJAA was. It does appear to be a tiny difference though, would 12μm make a significant difference in fuelling capability? Also, does the Cup edition (170ps right?) use 03L 130 277A as well? I'd hazard a guess it uses a slightly bigger turbo like the Euro 170ps engine.

Ash