Confusing US Government

In the age of higher fuel costs due to dwindling supply and increasing demand the US Government finally acknowledges that the use of biofuels is a step in the right direction.
Hold on a sec, now the "White House" wants to go ahead puts a new spin on things. They have turned around saying that car pooling is insignificant and new user fees for roads should be charged. Personally I think it's nutty that people pay for taxes to support road construction and then have to pay AGAIN!!! Maybe the Bush government should be using some of the billions of dollars being squandered in Iraq and put it to good use in America. Maybe these new road usage fees will be used to help finance the war in Iraq or a pending war in Iran. Like I said, "NUTTY!!!"

We Understand your confusion.

Say, how is that thing where only criminals get to carry handguns going for y'all up there? That makes so much sense, especially to felons.

Don't feel bad about being confused.... royal subjects often become confused when observing a free people. Our system of government is messy, but it works.

Hey to your Queen.

Bill

Not sure I know anything about what you are saying...I haven't really heard anything on it. But here is the truth about all of this.

No conventional logic will ever work when speaking about the government and energy. What makes sense and would work are very small variables in the equation of what they decide when it comes to energy. I am a very very optomistic person if you ask anyone but the truth is until something of unimaginalbe proportions happens to this country nothing will ever be done to change it.

Not that i don't beleive in this country....I serve in the military.....but when it comes to issues like this our citizens and enviroment are not put first.

I feel we can complain for ever, but at least there are those that break free of the conventional chains and others that pull on them everyday by making a difference in the right direction. I think it is these people that will have paved the path centuries before those who will desperatley need their knowledge, of which will be necessary to save our planet.

Wow I really didn't even come close to sticking on topic with your post... Sorry sometimes I get going to.

" I am a slave as well, knowingly, yet I do very little about it"

You guys should read "The Bottomless Well". Interesting at the very least

If you really want to confuse the government send them a thank you card with your tax.

Here is what confuses me about one particular politician named Hillary Clinton. She was stumping in Iowa recently and bragged about how she supported alternative fuels such as ethanol to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. She got applause for her comments but NO ONE in the general media bothered to investigate or report the fact that she has voted 19 times against ethanol while in the Senate. Fairly recent quotes from her before she announced her candidacy for president, stated she opposed ethanol because she didn't want her constituents to pay higher fuel prices.

Another blatant example of media bias that choses to ignore "the news".

What I don't get sometimes is why the government hasn't encouraged serious research into solar power. I don't mean big power stations powered by solar, rather affordable technologies for everyone to slap on their roof. Around here , it would cost about $70k for me to cover my roof with solar panels. I don't think I'd get even a 25% tax credit for it. Sad really. With all of the juice you could pull in during the day, you'd be able to put electricity on the grid while you are at work, and both take stress off the grid, and save yourself some money. The sun shines every day, seems like a no brainer to me to cover surfaces that aren't utilized for anything else besides providing cover, plug us all into the grid so we can give back whenever we have surplus. As far as big stations go, there are technologies, such as the Stirling engine, that would produce massive amounts of solar energy, something like a 10 square mile area in the Mojave could pull in enough to basically power the country. I heard a great interview on NPR last year about the Stirling engine. However, we don't have the battery capability to store the power efficiently once the sun goes down, and I think there might be transmission issues. Seems like with a little effort, solar would quickly be a viable, profitable option. However, most politicians seem to be content sponsoring bills that rely on technologies that are still in their infancy. ie. coal liquification, carbon capture, etc. Anyway, my two cents.

DrewD said:

Here is what confuses me about one particular politician named Hillary Clinton. She was stumping in Iowa recently and bragged about how she supported alternative fuels such as ethanol to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. She got applause for her comments but NO ONE in the general media bothered to investigate or report the fact that she has voted 19 times against ethanol while in the Senate.

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Ug. I'm no fan of Hillary, but you can't rely on these silly "talking points" as if they are realistic. The way parties come up with talking points like that above ("she voted against ethanol 19 times..."), and the Republican party has become the masters of it lately, is by relying on the fact that most significant bills in Congress are over 1,000 pages long - and all are a mix of some good and some bad. So, no matter how a person votes on them, you can accuse them of having voted for or against something.

For example, many people have voted against Bush's Energy Bills each year, because they are absolutely pathetic - for example, this year due to his energy bill, almost $1 billion was given to silly "clean coal" research (since those coal companies are so poor), and at least as much to oil companies through various credits and grants. Yet, there was NO funding for biodiesel research through the DOE, and no real strategy about getting us off of oil. But, it did include some funding for ethanol programs. So, all of the politicians who voted against the bill because as a whole it was pathetic, can now be accused of voting against ethanol.

By not researching these things more, and just repeating these pathetic talking points, you're just playing into their hands (and this applies to people who blindly follow talking points of *either* party).

BTW, is anyone going to actually address the original poster's post, or just start new topics?

What is this "user fee" that you're saying Bush is supporting?

Carpooling is insignificant in the sense that not many people do it - but it is very significant in the sense that it does more to reduce fuel usage than almost anything else you do (and certainly more than anything Bush has proposed).

DrewD said:

Another blatant example of media bias that choses to ignore "the news".

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Our current "media" mostly care only about sensational stories of sex, drugs and corruption; whatever is most sensational and whatever will drive the ratings the most.

It is why I support Public Radio and Public TV.

Neither of those are perfect, but they aren't driven entirely by ratings. We need that.

nh mike said:

BTW, is anyone going to actually address the original poster's post, or just start new topics?

What is this "user fee" that you're saying Bush is supporting?

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Geez, Mike, the original poster's post? What kind of crazy talk is that!

Yes, I suppose allowing these threads to be about what they start out as ...does make sense >bows own head<.

I've not read up on this issue. I do know that carpooling is a simple and effective thing just regular people can do.

thenewguy said:

What I don't get sometimes is why the government hasn't encouraged serious research into solar power. I don't mean big power stations powered by solar, rather affordable technologies for everyone to slap on their roof. Around here , it would cost about $70k for me to cover my roof with solar panels. I don't think I'd get even a 25% tax credit for it. Sad really. With all of the juice you could pull in during the day, you'd be able to put electricity on the grid while you are at work, and both take stress off the grid, and save yourself some money. The sun shines every day, seems like a no brainer to me to cover surfaces that aren't utilized for anything else besides providing cover, plug us all into the grid so we can give back whenever we have surplus. As far as big stations go, there are technologies, such as the Stirling engine, that would produce massive amounts of solar energy, something like a 10 square mile area in the Mojave could pull in enough to basically power the country. I heard a great interview on NPR last year about the Stirling engine. However, we don't have the battery capability to store the power efficiently once the sun goes down, and I think there might be transmission issues. Seems like with a little effort, solar would quickly be a viable, profitable option. However, most politicians seem to be content sponsoring bills that rely on technologies that are still in their infancy. ie. coal liquification, carbon capture, etc. Anyway, my two cents.

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Couldn't be because the coal lobby is much, much, much larger than the solar lobby, could it?

Nahhhhhh

Maybe...just maybe. Think of how many panels you could put up on just public buildings, let alone people's homes for the price of a new coal fired plant.

BIOWERX said:

In the age of higher fuel costs due to dwindling supply and increasing demand the US Government finally acknowledges that the use of biofuels is a step in the right direction.
Hold on a sec, now the "White House" wants to go ahead puts a new spin on things. They have turned around saying that car pooling is insignificant and new user fees for roads should be charged. Personally I think it's nutty that people pay for taxes to support road construction and then have to pay AGAIN!!! Maybe the Bush government should be using some of the billions of dollars being squandered in Iraq and put it to good use in America. Maybe these new road usage fees will be used to help finance the war in Iraq or a pending war in Iran. Like I said, "NUTTY!!!"

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IMO is sort of nutty to expect an administration currently involved in funding wars and reconstruction (well sort of) in Iraq and Afghanistan to take money currently being spent on those conflicts and use it anywhere in America. Even if billions of dollars fell out of the sky for us to use, by the time the different legislators all got done with trying to fund their pork barrel projects, nothing much would end up being done for the "public good", especially road works. We have a complicated system here, I love some aspects of it, and really dislike some aspects of it...it definitely isn't perfect. However for all of its flaws, I still believe that America is the best country in the world. What do your astronomical taxes go towards paying for in Canada? Sure, everyone might nominally have access to things like health care, and if you end up living long enough to get to your scheduled surgery date, things work out. Otherwise, you are on a waiting list. Now THAT is nutty. Just one example. I know that is comparing apples to oranges, since I haven't been up into Canada recently enough to remember what condition your roads are in, but things aren't sterling up there either!

Politics

Nothing makes sense when it comes to energy policy and government. Ethanol is simply another governement subsidy. Debate rages on as to if producing ethanol actually produces an energy benefit, as many argue it takes more energy to produce the fuel than it produces when burned.
Same with BIO diesel. Millions of gallons of waste veggie oil is disposed of every year, yet government is only focusing on bio-diesel from soybeans (yet anohter subsidy). Big oil killed the electric car, and it will likely kill any alternative fuel effort.

Scott_DeWitt said:

Nothing makes sense when it comes to energy policy and government. Ethanol is simply another governement subsidy. Debate rages on as to if producing ethanol actually produces an energy benefit, as many argue it takes more energy to produce the fuel than it produces when burned.
Same with BIO diesel. Millions of gallons of waste veggie oil is disposed of every year, yet government is only focusing on bio-diesel from soybeans (yet anohter subsidy). Big oil killed the electric car, and it will likely kill any alternative fuel effort.

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Yeah.

DrewD said:

Here is what confuses me about one particular politician named Hillary Clinton. She was stumping in Iowa recently and bragged about how she supported alternative fuels such as ethanol to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. She got applause for her comments but NO ONE in the general media bothered to investigate or report the fact that she has voted 19 times against ethanol while in the Senate. Fairly recent quotes from her before she announced her candidacy for president, stated she opposed ethanol because she didn't want her constituents to pay higher fuel prices.

Another blatant example of media bias that choses to ignore "the news".

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And the media has her at number 1 or at least if they tell the people enough times that she is number 1 people with be brainwashed into thinking she is number 1 choice... What the saying in advertisments?? Get people to view an Ad X times and they will belive it even if its false.

All the media does is brainwash ignorant people... The mass media is to blame for alot of things.

Scott_DeWitt said:

Nothing makes sense when it comes to energy policy and government. Ethanol is simply another governement subsidy. Debate rages on as to if producing ethanol actually produces an energy benefit, as many argue it takes more energy to produce the fuel than it produces when burned.
Same with BIO diesel. Millions of gallons of waste veggie oil is disposed of every year, yet government is only focusing on bio-diesel from soybeans (yet anohter subsidy). Big oil killed the electric car, and it will likely kill any alternative fuel effort.

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That waste veggie oil is not just thrown away..... It is used for
other purposes.
The gov'mt is pushing ethanol as well as soydiesel... We have the infrastructure and expertise to grow corn and beans..... not rapeseed, etc..

Bill

Do not feed the trolls, DO not feed the trolls, do NOT feed the TROLLS!

Well .... maybe just a little snack.

now the "White House" wants to go ahead puts a new spin on things

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WHAT?? You mean the Canadian government has NEVER done an about face on policy??

Personally I think it's nutty that people pay for taxes to support road construction and then have to pay AGAIN!!!

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Mmmmm, living in a tax haven like Canada I can understand why you would think that, but my question to you is: "Why do you care, how, or why, we are taxed?"

Say, how is that thing where only criminals get to carry handguns going for y'all up there? That makes so much sense, especially to felons.

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Based on their low incidence of firearm crime per capita, I'd say it works pretty good. BTW you don't think that the unrestricted access to nearly any kind of non-automatic firearm just across the worlds longest unprotected border has anything to do w/that do you? And before you start, I belong to 3 gun clubs, I'm a lifetime certified Wisconsin Hunter Safety Instructor, and I have enough guns and ammunition to start a war in a third world country. And I will not re-join the NRA until LaPierre is gone.

Our system of government is messy, but it works.

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So does theirs, and they can kick the government out, anytime they want to. We can only do it on four year cycle.

until something of unimaginable proportions happens to this country nothing will ever be done to change it

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Sad, but true. But that's human nature.

With all of the juice you could pull in during the day, you'd be able to put electricity on the grid while you are at work,

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They now make solar shingles. But you better have a extremely low load home to run on just solar, even when you're gone. One thing you never hear talked about, when it comes to electricity usage, is getting "off grid". But to do so, you need a combination of solar and wind, (or just wind). Interestingly, in the UK, B&Q (read Home Depot) has selling wind turbines for the home. The price (about 3500 BPS I think) covers everything; site eval, installation and setup, etc. It's a complete turnkey system.

technologies, such as the Stirling engine

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The Stirling holds potential, but still has a long way to go before it will be economically practical for most applications.

the battery capability to store the power efficiently

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there might be transmission issues

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Are you talking on a National basis? If so, ain't never gonna happen (of course neither was space travel). Power is generated according to the need of the grid. There is no way you could store that much electricty.

And regarding Ms. Clinton:

The rank and file are not philosophers, they are not educated to think for themselves, but simply to accept, unquestioned, whatever comes.

SB Anthony​

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thenewguy said:

...we don't have the battery capability to store the power efficiently once the sun goes down...

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Actually, you can store a lot of power with existing technology, without batteries and pretty efficiently (78% recoverable).

Here is a nice Wiipedia article on using water pumping for electricity storage. Until I read this recently, I had no idea that we already have 25 such facilities operating right this very minute here in the good 'ole US of A and others world-wide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity

DrewD said:

Another blatant example of media bias that choses to ignore "the news".

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There is no "liberal" media bias. How can it be proven? Dick Cheney shot a guy in the face and it was swept under the rug. Bill Clinton shot someone in the face and they tried to impeach him.

Hahahah. That is a good point.

Scott_DeWitt said:

Nothing makes sense when it comes to energy policy and government. Ethanol is simply another governement subsidy. Debate rages on as to if producing ethanol actually produces an energy benefit, as many argue it takes more energy to produce the fuel than it produces when burned.

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Yup. As long as if by "many" you mean two professors (Ted Patzek who runs the Chevron funded UC Oil Consortium and long-time biofuels opponent David Pimentel), and those who are duped into media outlets into believing that those two represent the opinion of many scientists.

I have to do this in "reverse order":

RabitGTI:

Dick Cheney shot a guy in the face and it was swept under the rug. Bill Clinton shot someone in the face and they tried to impeach him.

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ROFLAO!

But to be fair, the tried to impeach Bill 'cause he lied. I think its interesting that both sides (liberal/conservative) complain about equally how the media is "liberal" or "conservative". Probably means that they're treating both about the same, which IMO is with kid gloves. The media should be the watchdog of government. I think they let too much slide, on both sides. Did you ever wonder what would have happened if the Cheny shooting had been reversed? BTW I have it on good report that Cheny and his lawyer buddy were playing that time-honored red-neck game, shooting beer cans off each other's head. They flipped a coin and Cheny won.

What's the last thing a red-neck says before he dies?

HEY! Looky HERE!

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ikendu:

I'm glad you brought that to my attention. I had forgotten about it, And it is one way to "store" electricity. But I found the picture of the Wales installation more interesting. Here's why:



The wife and I drove across it in June! I had no idea that it was that kind of setup. One thing to note though, the power/turbine house (I assume that's what it was, it was humming. Sounded like "Land of Our Fathers") is the little white thing you can see at the base of the dam. It's smaller than a one car garage. For perspective, there is a RAV-4 sized SUV on the left size of the dam in the first picture.

(BTW if anyone knows how to shrink photos down before I post on here please PM me.)

Ikendu: That is really cool.

40X40 said:

Say, how is that thing where only criminals get to carry handguns going for y'all up there? That makes so much sense, especially to felons.

Don't feel bad about being confused.... royal subjects often become confused when observing a free people. Our system of government is messy, but it works.

Hey to your Queen.

Bill

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Well, he does have the right to speak his mind....

But I agree with you 100%.

Politics and problems are such confusion.....and the regular people think they have it all figured out,,,,,

addicted said:

Not sure I know anything about what you are saying...I haven't really heard anything on it. But here is the truth about all of this.

No conventional logic will ever work when speaking about the government and energy. What makes sense and would work are very small variables in the equation of what they decide when it comes to energy. I am a very very optomistic person if you ask anyone but the truth is until something of unimaginalbe proportions happens to this country nothing will ever be done to change it.

Not that i don't beleive in this country....I serve in the military.....but when it comes to issues like this our citizens and enviroment are not put first.

I feel we can complain for ever, but at least there are those that break free of the conventional chains and others that pull on them everyday by making a difference in the right direction. I think it is these people that will have paved the path centuries before those who will desperatley need their knowledge, of which will be necessary to save our planet.

Wow I really didn't even come close to sticking on topic with your post... Sorry sometimes I get going to.

" I am a slave as well, knowingly, yet I do very little about it"

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I agree with your post. There are so many variables and so many competing interests...and ironically, no one party or one way will solve this problem. No matter what route is taken, there will be naysayers...for better or worse.

Well, that is democracy.

We do need to find alternatives as well as extenders of fuel. We do need to find other sources, including dino oil....

From an englishmen

I thought this was a tdi club by the way??!! But since you seem to be on the topic of the enviroment and how America is one of the biggest pollutionists in the world then let me point out the bleeding obvious.

Every European country pays tax on the road. And the tolls. And the cities. And the bigger the car the more you pay. Hence why they all drive diesels and cute little smart cars that get 50mpg or more. There is no free parking in the cities, you pay for that too. You pay 75% more in taxes for your gasoline than you do here, so it works out out $7.50 a gallon. If your car is three years or older, you pay for an annual inspection of your car so you don't pollute the atmosphere or drive a death trap because you haven't checked the brakes or tyres since you bought the car. You get taxed on that too.

And as for dams producing electricity, you never heard of the Hoover dam?? Or the new dam that the Governator proposed recently? I live 5 minutes away from a hydro dam that was condemned in the 40's, the potomac flooded.

As for the Clintons,
Clinton Global Initiative which help fund www.nativeenergy.com that build windfarms.

RabbitGTI said:

There is no "liberal" media bias. How can it be proven? Dick Cheney shot a guy in the face and it was swept under the rug. Bill Clinton shot someone in the face and they tried to impeach him.

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LOL......good one...

But there is media bias on both sides...and for zealots on each side. YOu can spot them when they start calling names when they don't agree with your opinion....

When Clinton shot someone, they tried to sweep it into the washing machine, but she had other ideas....

beachkokopelli said:

I thought this was a tdi club by the way??!! But since you seem to be on the topic of the enviroment and how America is one of the biggest pollutionists in the world then let me point out the bleeding obvious.

Every European country pays tax on the road. And the tolls. And the cities. And the bigger the car the more you pay. Hence why they all drive diesels and cute little smart cars that get 50mpg or more. There is no free parking in the cities, you pay for that too. You pay 75% more in taxes for your gasoline than you do here, so it works out out $7.50 a gallon. If your car is three years or older, you pay for an annual inspection of your car so you don't pollute the atmosphere or drive a death trap because you haven't checked the brakes or tyres since you bought the car. You get taxed on that too.

And as for dams producing electricity, you never heard of the Hoover dam?? Or the new dam that the Governator proposed recently? I live 5 minutes away from a hydro dam that was condemned in the 40's, the potomac flooded.

As for the Clintons,

[SIZE=-1]Sponsored Link[/SIZE]​

Clinton Global Initiative which help fund www.nativeenergy.com that build windfarms.

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I agree....we rant and complain about our fuel costs, yet we have relatively low fuel prices... mainly due to less taxes.

Here in US....driving is taken for granted by all of us. I wonder how many people would support higher taxes on our fuel..so that we will conserve more and use less? Or would that just squeeze the less rich and the economy ?

the bigger the car the more you pay. Hence why they all drive diesels and cute little smart cars

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Actually, this is why they drive little cars:

Typical two way road in rural Wales. Legal speed limit 50 MPH!

They drive little cars because they have little roads!! The car in the pict is a Vuxhall, 'bout the size of a Golf. There is not enough room on either side of the car to open the doors and get out. And they don't ALL drive diesels, the majority of cars are still gas powered (but you don't see many, if any gas trucks). They do however have a lot more diesels to choose from such as:
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=21562
I know it may be heresy, but I'd like to get my hands on one of those. (or the v-dub equivalent).

And as for dams producing electricity, you never heard of the Hoover dam??

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They're now taking the water from below the Hoover Dam and pumping back into lake Mead? Bet that's gonna p-off the folks in Laughlin, Needles, Lakes Havesu City, etc. when the water stops flowin' (maybe you should read the posts and the links?)

America is one of the biggest pollutionists [sic] in the world then let me point out the bleeding obvious.

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Unless I'm mistaken, we are the biggest polluter. We have 5% of the worlds population; we use 25% of the worlds energy, and produce an equal amount of the greenhouse gases. But making a direct comparison of the US to Europe and the UK is silly. In Europe, a hundred miles is a long way (in the US a hundred years is a long time).