Injector nozzles

Jmaitland806

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Location
Tennessee
TDI
1997 passat b4
Anyone ever just buy a set of .205 or .216 nozzles and put them in without having them calibrated? I have recently bought a b4 passat and it has stage 2 tunes. It uaed to have .216 nozzles but previous owner swapped them back to stock to use the .216 for another car. Id like to put some back in but wondered if i could get out a little cheaper and just drop a new set in. Any advice would help
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
when it comes to mufflers, air fresheners, radar detectors, go cheep, when you put a part on your engine that is responsible for its ability to run, dont compromise on the part. have it pop tested, no debate, ESPECIALLY a nozzle that is responsible for putting fuel into the engine, dont want to burn anything up do we?
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
There are a number of options to install nozzles on a B4.

If you want the best, go with DBW's swap service.

If you want to be more frugal, read up on what it takes to swap the nozzles in these injector bodies, and install them.

The key is quality control. You need to make sure that the nozzle and the install are working correctly. Over time, the springs in the injector settle some and pop at a slightly lower pressure. This leads to slightly less than optimal burn, but for years was OK with DIY replacements.

Every so often, a nozzle would get installed with no Quality control (check spray pattern, check injector balance in VCDS) and the nozzle streamed and cut through a piston.

If you feel up to installing the nozzles (CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN - Operating room clean!), and you have a way to check the spray pattern and injector balance #'s in group 13, then go for it.

Otherwise get someone to do them for you.

<- self installed several sets of nozzles with checking primary pop pressure (very expensive / more complicated equipment required to check/set secondary pressures), spray pattern and VCDS balance - never had an issue.
 

h4vok

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Location
Denver (ex MN)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDi 5sp 171k
when it comes to mufflers, air fresheners, radar detectors, go cheep, when you put a part on your engine that is responsible for its ability to run, dont compromise on the part. have it pop tested, no debate, ESPECIALLY a nozzle that is responsible for putting fuel into the engine, dont want to burn anything up do we?
I will second this. On these cars the injectors are vital to running properly. People have done it before, but unless you are going to build some simple testing machines for them you will probably have mismatched opening pressures and dripdown. I bought new nozzles and had them mounted over the summer and yes $550 is hard to swallow for nozzles + mounting. BUT the car runs better than it did stock and I know they will last for as long as I want to drive the car.
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
One of the nice things about having DBW recalibrate and upgrade your nozzles is his warranty on his work. Yes it is a big chunk of cash up front, but for me peace of mind was priceless.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
$500 is not a hard pill to swallow considering fuel injection is the #1 biggest corner stone on any build, upgrade set up. Turbo is next in price and depending on what you get and from whom you get it from, the tune is the 3rd. those things are paramount and you cant go cheep or try and save a few bucks.
Learn how to weld, and save money by building your own custom exhaust, its not that difficult, same with a light port and polish on your head, cam work, and various other engine upgrades you can DIY the heck out of and save money, but this is NOT the place to do it, spend it when you need it. I should know, i have a set of pp.764 5hole nozzles in my AHU pop tested at stage 4 on an engine thats blasting out about 250~hp, Im dumping so much fuel into the engine that if its not warmed up to normal 170*F, it will hydro lock the bowl with fuel and do bad things. If those nozzles were not pop tested, i grantee on the first hard pull i ever did with them, that the engine would have a hole shooting out the side of it like a lazer cutter!

TLDR, this is not the place to screw around by saving a few bucks now vs blowing SH!T up
 

Jetta_Pilot

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Location
West Hill, Ont.
TDI
2015 Passat Highline TDI Candy White (SEL Premium) long gone 2002 Jetta TDI
On my former 2002 Jetta automatic an acquaintance installed .205 nozzles out of the box.
No pop test! No expensive spray test et.
It was definitely an exhilarating experience. More Hp and torque. Never had a " blown" piston or anything else go wrong until I changed to my Passat and the engine was still going strong. I think some people are a bit anal.
Operating room clean? Give me a break, we did it in the driveway!
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
well, 520 or other large injectors you do need configs

smaller injection i guess its not as critical but risky as hell.

oh and as for clean room vs your garage work, as long as your clean when assembly on them, your fine, if you so much as get a sand sized or dust sized speck of hard crap in the plunger on the nozzle, you will melt out a piston, i guarantee you that. how does a enormous sized burning jet of diesel sound vs a fine mist? yea, ive seen the aftermath. there is a video of some Mexicans doing a nozzle change for this ALH they had, they were using welding tip files and wire brushes to clean the holes. the moment it fired up it melted the piston, they took down the video of the after math.

not one serious builder here will advise someone to do it dirty, another way to destroy the injectors are to let them dry out, keep them wet with diesel fuel as you take them apart and store them.

Small nozzles, probably ok with as long as you follow the DIY and stay clean, just dont touch the things your not supposed to. I would and have always paid for the pop test, kerma is not that costly.

here is that video, prepare to cringe, if you can make it though the entire video, its hard for me to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guYFnOMlR_k
 
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PB_NB

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Location
Vancouver, B.C.
TDI
1999 New Beetle
I put a set of .205 nozzles in the Beetle many years ago. I bought them from a reputable diesel performance shop. I didn't get them tested or balanced. Just put them in and drove.

They worked great and I ran them for about 5 years. I also had Digi10 tuning box. Lots of power but lots of smoke too.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
well, 520 or other large injectors you do need configs

smaller injection i guess its not as critical but risky as hell.

oh and as for clean room vs your garage work, as long as your clean when assembly on them, your fine, if you so much as get a sand sized or dust sized speck of hard crap in the plunger on the nozzle, you will melt out a piston, i guarantee you that. how does a enormous sized burning jet of diesel sound vs a fine mist? yea, ive seen the aftermath. there is a video of some Mexicans doing a nozzle change for this ALH they had, they were using welding tip files and wire brushes to clean the holes. the moment it fired up it melted the piston, they took down the video of the after math.

not one serious builder here will advise someone to do it dirty, another way to destroy the injectors are to let them dry out, keep them wet with diesel fuel as you take them apart and store them.

Small nozzles, probably ok with as long as you follow the DIY and stay clean, just dont touch the things your not supposed to. I would and have always paid for the pop test, kerma is not that costly.

here is that video, prepare to cringe, if you can make it though the entire video, its hard for me to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guYFnOMlR_k
Please stop talking out of your backside.

Nice version. Please provide one verifiable instance where you confirm that a sand sized dust speck melted a piston.

PP520's will install fine with a little bit of precaution. Make sure they're installed clean and check spray pattern and balance with VCDS.

Stop trying to scare people - we're gonna think you're a slightly less abrasive version of DBW.
 
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Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
well im not going to go back to the scrap yard where we dumped a cummins internals after the aftermath of a nozzle hole getting deformed and putting a hole though the piston and the sidewall.
Here is a good read and this is exactly what happened to our beloved 5.9 cummins but ours was way worse damage
http://www.sacea.org.za/docs/sait%20referaat%20inspuiters_2_shrunk.pdf

"CONSEQUENCES OF POOR SPRAY PATTERNS
When a poor spray pattern exist, as described above, the following actions
usually take place:
3.3.1. Washing away of the oil film on the cylinder wall
Whenever a jet of diesel fuel is directed onto the cylinder wall, the thin film of
lubricating oil is washed away. This leads to dry rubbing of the piston and piston
ring on the cylinder wall. Due to the absence of the lubricating film, the friction
coefficient rises and excessive heat is developed. Damage to the surfaces,
leading to eventual seizing of the piston usually results. In some cases
accelerated wear can also take place. In the initial stages of piston failures, the
position where the jet of fuel is directed onto the cylinder wall can clearly be seen
on the piston crown and on the piston side where seizing starts. The damage
usually starts above the top piston rings and then gradually works downwards,
towards the skirt of the piston. The following photograph, Fig 9, shows such a
piston, which is in the initial stages of seizing. "

"Dripping from nozzle
Another possibility is that due to poor closure of the needle on the seat in the
injector, fuel might drip from the injector tip and wet the surface of the piston
crown. This then results in combustion taking place directly on the piston crown.
The protecting stationary gas layer, which normally protects the piston material, is
no longer present and this eventually results in melting of the piston crown, which
is shown in photograph Fig 10 below."


The effect of both these types of failure, is that the needle becomes sticky in his
movement and that bigger droplets are emitted and in some cases jets of fuel are
emitted from the injector tip. This would then result in piston failure and/or bigend
bearing failure.
The effect of the stickiness of the needle is that the seat of the needle gets
damaged and Fig 31 shows such a needle under the microscope, indicating the
rough sealing surface which is no more in a position to seal properly


here is another good read
http://dfcdiesel.com/warranty-info/failure-analysis/

The DIY for nozzles specifically says "Although this is an easy job, cleanliness is extremely important! The nozzle holes are very small and particles can damage and clog the injectors. While the injector tips withstand thousands of psi of combustion in the engine, having dirt stuck behind the tiny nozzle orifice is like squeezing out an apple sized kidney stone - you're at risk of a blowout."
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/tdi-fuel-injector-nozzle-upgrade-replacement-diy/
How am i talking out of my backside when i have had a few engines completly destroid by this, i was on the mechanics side of this build was was on the assembly of the engine, the guy (Francis) who worked for our company did the fuel system and he literally did this job in 30 minutes and did a piss poor job. other than a hole though the piston and the side wall, the nozzle had a hole in it and when we took it apart and scoped it with a microscope, the inside of the seat for the plunger had scaring damage like if a piece of sand or grit was bouncing around and blew out one of the holes causing a strait shot of fuel to melt the engine to death.

Right from kerma, i think they know what there doing!
http://www.kermatdi.com/injector-calibration-with-hotswap-option/
 
Last edited:

Yourbuddysatin

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
2013 Jetta tdi
Like everyone else is stating. Having DBW do the mounting and pop testing is a small price to pay for having assurance and a warranty the injectors will be tip top. I’ll say I’m a very savvy mechanic and I wouldn’t attempt this myself. Just my $.02
 

PB_NB

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Location
Vancouver, B.C.
TDI
1999 New Beetle
Like everyone else is stating. Having DBW do the mounting and pop testing is a small price to pay for having assurance and a warranty the injectors will be tip top. I’ll say I’m a very savvy mechanic and I wouldn’t attempt this myself. Just my $.02
I did the DIY nozzle swap with my .205's but after much reading and discussions, I got my DLC1019's setup by DBW. It took a while with all the shipping back and forth but I think it was worth it.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
well im not going to go back to the scrap yard where we dumped a cummins internals after the aftermath of a nozzle hole getting deformed and putting a hole though the piston and the sidewall.
Here is a good read and this is exactly what happened to our beloved 5.9 cummins but ours was way worse damage
http://www.sacea.org.za/docs/sait%20referaat%20inspuiters_2_shrunk.pdf

"CONSEQUENCES OF POOR SPRAY PATTERNS
When a poor spray pattern exist, as described above, the following actions
usually take place:
3.3.1. Washing away of the oil film on the cylinder wall
Whenever a jet of diesel fuel is directed onto the cylinder wall, the thin film of
lubricating oil is washed away. This leads to dry rubbing of the piston and piston
ring on the cylinder wall. Due to the absence of the lubricating film, the friction
coefficient rises and excessive heat is developed. Damage to the surfaces,
leading to eventual seizing of the piston usually results. In some cases
accelerated wear can also take place. In the initial stages of piston failures, the
position where the jet of fuel is directed onto the cylinder wall can clearly be seen
on the piston crown and on the piston side where seizing starts. The damage
usually starts above the top piston rings and then gradually works downwards,
towards the skirt of the piston. The following photograph, Fig 9, shows such a
piston, which is in the initial stages of seizing. "

"Dripping from nozzle
Another possibility is that due to poor closure of the needle on the seat in the
injector, fuel might drip from the injector tip and wet the surface of the piston
crown. This then results in combustion taking place directly on the piston crown.
The protecting stationary gas layer, which normally protects the piston material, is
no longer present and this eventually results in melting of the piston crown, which
is shown in photograph Fig 10 below."


The effect of both these types of failure, is that the needle becomes sticky in his
movement and that bigger droplets are emitted and in some cases jets of fuel are
emitted from the injector tip. This would then result in piston failure and/or bigend
bearing failure.
The effect of the stickiness of the needle is that the seat of the needle gets
damaged and Fig 31 shows such a needle under the microscope, indicating the
rough sealing surface which is no more in a position to seal properly


here is another good read
http://dfcdiesel.com/warranty-info/failure-analysis/

The DIY for nozzles specifically says "Although this is an easy job, cleanliness is extremely important! The nozzle holes are very small and particles can damage and clog the injectors. While the injector tips withstand thousands of psi of combustion in the engine, having dirt stuck behind the tiny nozzle orifice is like squeezing out an apple sized kidney stone - you're at risk of a blowout."
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/tdi-fuel-injector-nozzle-upgrade-replacement-diy/
How am i talking out of my backside when i have had a few engines completly destroid by this, i was on the mechanics side of this build was was on the assembly of the engine, the guy (Francis) who worked for our company did the fuel system and he literally did this job in 30 minutes and did a piss poor job. other than a hole though the piston and the side wall, the nozzle had a hole in it and when we took it apart and scoped it with a microscope, the inside of the seat for the plunger had scaring damage like if a piece of sand or grit was bouncing around and blew out one of the holes causing a strait shot of fuel to melt the engine to death.

Right from kerma, i think they know what there doing!
http://www.kermatdi.com/injector-calibration-with-hotswap-option/
Again, please provide non-anecdotal evidence where a nozzle install melted a piston.

Your first link details fuel quality in South Africa, and the problems caused by poor fuel, but has nothing to do with nozzle installation or replacement.

Your second link has to do with engine failure analysis, and has one section on melted pistons, but many other failures which again have nothing to do with nozzles. The section about melted pistons does mention improper spray pattern, but again nothing to do with nozzle replacements.

The remaining links are the myturbodiesel DIY and a shameless plug for Kerma and DBW.

Your direct experience with a nozzle install gone bad? :rolleyes:
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
if you say so!, you have something against kerma or DBW?
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
No not at all. They offer a service and have had many satisfied clients. I have no doubt that DBW knows his stuff and the right equipment to do the job properly.

What I despise are the scare tactics, either knowingly or unknowingly citing melted pistons and other world-ending calamity should one elect not to use their services.

When pressed, nobody, and I mean NOBODY has been able to cite even one documented case where a DIY nozzle install has melted pistons. Folks on this site installed their own nozzles with minimal issues for years until it was suddenly out of favor to do anything but use DBW.

There have been cases of one nozzle in a set of four not popping properly or showing a poor spray pattern. Even the most basic of spray pattern or group 13 balance #'s prior to or after install can prevent any damage. The DIY's like the one you posted even say as such.

Due diligence and disclosure on the risks of DIY nozzle install are fine. Scaring people with unsubstantiated fear-mongering (or fear-Monglering in your case) is BS IMHO.

/rant
 

Caddy 16v

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Location
Hazelton, BC
TDI
2000 Jetta, 2000 Golf
Lol, when I did my nozzles back in the day (hflox warp 3) I even dropped one a couple times on a dirt floor and after 80.000km+ my engine hasn't grenaded! That's with a stage 5 custom tune and other bits and pieces.

If you want to spend the $$$ go right ahead but surely isn't needed.:p;)
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
wish i still had those pictures, HDD crapped out back in 2012, dont have them anymore, it was on a cummins though, not a TDI. To the point of things though, we all thing we know better than what millions of $ has been put in to R&D by car makers. Air filters, engine parts etc. i always say that if a major player in the performance world does it, then its ok to do to your car, but DIY home brew stuff is best left to safer areas of tinkering. I have no issue doing everything my self but when it comes to things like this, i would rather trust someone who has BIG bucks in equipment and expertise knowing way more than 90% of this entire forum put together, other than builders and vendors, in experience in fuel upgrades like nozzles and pop testing. With your argument, you might as well build your own car from scratch. As cited in MANY articles and blogs, improper spray pattern will damage the piston by removing the oil coating on the walls, dripping fuel causes melt downs, and there are plenty of cases where a bad injector has caused substantial damage and its usually due to a user error.

Im not causing a panic, nor am i fear-Monglering* lol > thats a good one, my sides*
Im clearly stating a point of advice i have had first hand experience with, all be it, it was not in a TDI, we learned a lot with that cummins, poor thing!

For OP's question i did state that it would probably be fine as its s light upgrade and as long as its done clean enough and with care, should be fine. IMHO its worth the $200~ for the calibration though with peace of mind and knowing that your not going to have any issues. That and a 1 micron cat filter! everyone says the same thing with the timing belt, its worth doing as the draw back of not doing the extra mile on that job is an engine failure causing major # in repairs. Same thing applies here, Save money on other things, not this.
 
Last edited:

swetbak

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Location
Ft. Myers, FL
TDI
03 Jetta Wagon, 2010 BMW 335d
I think everyone understands and appreciates "best practice", but not everyone has the same risk tolerance. For me, $500 is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
However, I wouldn't have a TDI (or 335d for that matter :) if my brother didn't have one first. He put the cheapest nozzles he could find on his 01 Jetta (520's I think). I loved driving his little race car and get 50mpg to boot. No tune or deletes, just cheap nozzles. That's what got me into this game. Btw, he still has that car after 15yrs.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
does he have a EGT gauge? stock car with pp764's and i was seeing 1600 on the first few pulls even at 4.5 QA, the stock turbo cant usually handle the flow and causes higher than normal EGT's.
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
Like I said before, for me peace-of-mind is priceless. If my TDI were to die, "screwed" would be the most polite word I can use here. Again, $500.00 for nozzles done right is a lot cheaper than having to replace an entire motor.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
If then OP is a risk taker he has a 50/50 shot! Roll the coal dice!!!!
Coal dice* love it!
if you had a 50/50 shot at having your arm broken for some reason, would you take that risk? I would defiantly NOT.
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
Mongler98, that is one of the best uses of defiantly I have ever seen; that is a terrific double negative you made there. Unless you meant definitely, then never mind.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
I should know, i have a set of pp.764 5hole nozzles in my AHU pop tested at stage 4 on an engine thats blasting out about 250~hp, Im dumping so much fuel into the engine that if its not warmed up to normal 170*F, it will hydro lock the bowl with fuel and do bad things.
So how do you warm the car up if you can’t run it because it’ll hydrolock the bowl (??) with fuel unless the engine is warmed up to 170°?

Sounds kinda fishy to me and smells even worse since PP764’s aren’t that big.

To jmaitland806, there is no doubt the car will run better with professionally pop tested nozzles. I have 2 sets I’ve run and can tell the difference between them and the self-installed ones Windex set up. That being said, the ones he did are just fine 70k later with some hard pulls fully loaded. So is ok good enough or do you seek perfection. These cars aren’t exactly cutting edge.

I bought a pop tester and own an ultrasonic, so I clean them occasionally and then check them with the pop tester for spray patterns and opening pressure. It hasn’t been an issue yet. It’s crude by calibration standards but works. There is no changing the pop pressure since the shims are very hard to come by.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
So how do you warm the car up if you can’t run it because it’ll hydrolock the bowl (??) with fuel unless the engine is warmed up to 170°?
Sounds kinda fishy to me and smells even worse since PP764’s aren’t that big.
Only when at WOT. it runs great but if I put it down 100% it will sound like a backfire almost and run like piss until the fuel gets dumped out, the 1st time I freaked out and pulled all the glow plugs and cranked it over, I was messing with my water injection and thought it had dumped too much in. The 2nd time it happened, I figured it out, I was messing with it and decided to pull the head back off, no damage, only a bowl full of fuel about half way full. I spec’d out the deck and head and piston protrusion height and it was the exact same before I did my head work and my new tune and was in spec for the engine.
I’m not going to try and keep replicating it to solve this, soon as it’s warmed up, no issue. I am feeling I’m lucky and I’m not going to press it any more. It’s an autocross and track car now and never gets driven for much of any other reason other than meets and shows and what not.

My hunch is my timing needs to be retarded a bit more.
 
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