Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

I know there is no word on a fix yet from VW, but here are my thoughts: For the newer cars and Passats that have the urea injection system the fix could or should be pretty straight forward: increase the frequency/amount of urea used and shorten the service cycles for urea refills. I think the reason the VW with the Ad-Blue system failed in the independent testing is because not enough urea was being used to scrub the exhaust (probably because they wanted the urea fill to correspond with the scheduled oil changes).

Cars like mine however are a different story. We know a software update will allow the cars to meet the emissions standards, but the effect on performance and mileage will almost certainly be detrimental. Also there are questions about how the other emissions components will fare as a result of running this richer mode, which lowers NOx, lowers operating temperature, but increases CO2 and fuel consumption. Diesel particulate filters and the EGR and EGR-filter will certainly fail faster. So it seems a software only fix won’t be the answer.

Even if the software only fix can meet the standards without affecting the durability of the parts the cars were advertised as having 140hp, 236 lb-ft of torque and getting 40 mpg on the highway. If any of these parameters fall short they are guilty of false advertising. A few tears ago Mazda bought back RX-8s for a 5% hp discrepancy.

Adding a urea injection system to all of the 2009-2014 Golfs and Jettas would require a large, costly engineering effort to retrofit the systems to fit in the car: A 6 gallon tank for the urea solution, sensors before and after the DPF and the injectors themselves. This seems cost prohibitive to me, as they may not be able to use much of the exhaust system that is in place, relegating it to the recycling bin. After this kind of retrofit the EPA will require them to warranty the new exhaust system to the federal 8 year 80000 mile standard, without the benefit of any real world extended testing… A buyback may actually be cheaper.

I'm certainly not holding my breath for a buyback though...

One thing regarding the EPA knowing about tactics like this being done in the past, is that the EPA has limited resources, and relies largely on manufacturers performing their own testing. They'll test when they think there's an issue, like this case where it was brought to their attention, but generally they're not set up for random testing. (And, even when they are, they're generally concerned with automakers not quite complying with the rules of the tests (see Ford and Kia/Hyundai's MPG issues, which were related to the tests not being implemented properly by the manufacturer due to misunderstandings about how they worked (fraud couldn't be proven)), not cases like this, especially because it's very difficult to create a real world driving scenario that's fair to all cars.

That said, with the NOx issues in Europe, European regulators actually are mandating real-world driving scenarios be part of compliance testing now, so the EPA may follow.

In any case, I want to see some retesting of the 2007-2009 E320 Bluetec, as it may actually offer the best possibility for a system that could work to retrofit the CBEA and CJAA cars - LNT plus a SCR that works off of ammonia emissions from the LNT, no urea tank needed.

zellerj said:

(482,000 cars in US X 200,000 miles X 0.8 gm per km) / 0.62 miles per km = 2.8 X 10e12 grams NOx per fleet = 124,387 MT NOx emission per fleet over the life of the car.
Now how significant is this:
According to UN date, the US emits 100 Kg NOx per capita X 300 million people in the US = 30 million MT total per year X 15 years life of car = 240 Million MT NOx emitted by USA over 15 years
Percent VW NOx emissions in the US = 124,387 MT / 240 million X 100 =
0.027%
Which is pretty insignificant. As Shakespear said - much ado about nothing.
Regards

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I like math and I agree except still the number doesn't mitigate the fact they activity seaked a way to break the law.

bhtooefr said:

That said, with the NOx issues in Europe, European regulators actually are mandating real-world driving scenarios be part of compliance testing now, so the EPA may follow.

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The push for on-road testing in Europe was in the context of people thinking that the dyno test failed to mirror on-road driving as a technical matter. Now that they know it was at least in part due to cheating, the focus may change to catching or preventing fraud.

That could be something as simple as a non-negotiable massive fine + all profits returned.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150923/OEM11/150929933

He is actually right that the changes may not actually be that big to bring it into compliance, but then there's the reasons why VW felt they had to cheat that have to be considered. I'm thinking there's a reliability problem, a drivability problem, or maybe just a fuel economy problem that is causing it, and I'm leaning towards reliability and fuel economy due to more retarded timing and more DPF regeneration events.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-kirkland-ellis-in-pollution-controls-scandal

In other news, VW hired the firm that defended BP in the Deepwater Horizon scandal.

Winterkorn is deeply sorry.

SageBrush said:

The push for on-road testing in Europe was in the context of people thinking that the dyno test failed to mirror on-road driving as a technical matter. Now that they know it was at least in part due to cheating, the focus may change to catching or preventing fraud.

That could be something as simple as a non-negotiable massive fine + all profits returned.

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There's other reasons for the real-world cycle being useful, though (in addition to the much harder WLTP cycle being used for emissions and fuel economy testing) - Europe also has a problem with small-displacement heavily-turbocharged gasoline cars that do amazingly well on NEDC, but then go ridiculously rich when they get onto boost, so they don't blow up, and get nowhere near the claimed fuel economy (and in all likelihood, emit a lot more PM than intended by the standards, although I'd expect their NOx performance to actually be decent).

This isn't an illegal form of cycle beating, as driving like the NEDC does will actually get the claimed mileage and emissions performance (it's not detecting the cycle and changing behavior for it, it's merely using different behavior for conditions like those in the cycle than for normal conditions), but it is something that Europe doesn't want to happen, especially given the extreme fuel economy penalty those vehicles are taking in the real world.

VW has something up their sleeves. A company this big doesn't make a move that big without holding a pair of Aces...

bhtooefr said:

There's other reasons for the real-world cycle being useful, though (in addition to the much harder WLTP cycle being used for emissions and fuel economy testing) - Europe also has a problem with small-displacement heavily-turbocharged gasoline cars that do amazingly well on NEDC, but then go ridiculously rich when they get onto boost, so they don't blow up, and get nowhere near the claimed fuel economy (and in all likelihood, emit a lot more PM than intended by the standards, although I'd expect their NOx performance to actually be decent).

This isn't an illegal form of cycle beating, as driving like the NEDC does will actually get the claimed mileage and emissions performance (it's not detecting the cycle and changing behavior for it, it's merely using different behavior for conditions like those in the cycle than for normal conditions), but it is something that Europe doesn't want to happen, especially given the extreme fuel economy penalty those vehicles are taking in the real world.

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Yep, but that can be solved with a harder dyno test. Is that the WLTP ? If the on-road fuel economy of the (turbo GDI ?) is really as poor as you say, I'm surprised that market forces have not corrected the matter, at least in Europe where fuel is $8+ a gallon.

An on-road test is going to be a mess. Perhaps they will just have something ad-hoc to screen for VW type cheats.

dubStrom said:

I felt that way for one day. Then I realized that I emit LESS carbon than the EPA compliant tune, AND I get better mpg. The only significant difference is the NOx. But don't forget that by driving a more efficient vehicle, you still emit less NOx than a compliant V8 (Ford/GMC) or inline 6 (RAM) turbo diesel truck. You made the right decision buying the SEL, and it is STILL the right car.

You are out of warantee. Ignore this situation, DO NOT get your car flashed/reprogrammed. Switch to a TDI guru and stay away from the dealership from now on. You'll be fine. I had a 2013 Passat and it got better mileage than ANY other TDI I have owned. Only reason I sold it is because I really like the Sportwagen. I won't complain about 40+mpg (100% real combined, 80% city), and near 50 mpg on the highway. That's a clean diesel!

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Okay...this sounds like a plan! Is there a listing for gurus on this site? I am in Doylestown PA and looking for a guru. My Jetta has 121k miles on it. I love it...the pep...the mileage. I also need to get my timing belt done and the dealer says it will cost $1300. I passed on that last time I was at the dealer...so another question to the group: When did you get your timing belt changed? Am I flirting with danger at 120k?

It's just too funny.
My Wife and I just bought our 2015 Jetta on September 3rd, right after the 2nd Seahawks Pre Season Game, where we saw the VW Tele Commercial for '2015 Blowout deal'.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Blow out indeed!!
2nd Fill up actual miles divided by gallons needed to fill up: 52.6 MPG That's combined with about 40% Highway.
Next two week driving MPG Actual miles divided by fill up gallons, this time 30% Highway miles driven and 70% city: 42.1 MPG, still kicks butt in my opinion.
So I'm happy, and you know, as long as the car breaks in well, I'm not even going to give this a second thought and when a year or 10000 miles goes by (whichever comes first of course) then we'll see what happens. I'm just honestly glad this came out After we bought the car cause we got a very good deal on it.

Now, if the Government gets a check for $37000 for my car that costs $23000 and I get 6 years of payments, I'm a gonna be Pi**ed.

the Beave, loving Our 2015 Jetta.......................

Pretty hard to wade through all the newbie repetition and gloom and doom. Honestly folks, there's no need to panic if you have a TDI and it's running well. I just drove our TDI with my wife to a cycling route yesterday; we averaged 4.5 L/100 km (and it's had the latest reflash of the ECU) on a 160 or so km round trip, and it drove like a charm. In 2 years and 9 months it has been an excellent, reliable and versatile automobile. Though I could understand maybe re-badging it to "2.5" to avoid nonsense from crazies out there (maybe I should get an "it's NOT a diesel" license plate frame for my TSI )

Yes we are all concerned about what the next steps are, such as a reflash that reduces performance/increases consumption, with corresponding loss in resale value. However we have no plans to trade the vehicle for many more years so resale isn't an immediate concern for us. We need to wait and see what VW comes up with before deciding what to do, or more likely, what not do do.

I do feel for our dealer, a small independent in a rural area with a large percentage of TDI sales and a few 2015s left in inventory plus 2016s held at port. That's got to hurt financially, big time.

Anybody trading now, before waiting to see what VW has in play for us, is acting in haste and risks repenting at leisure. I did trade one of our TDIs just before all this happened, but it was because it was a problem child, nothing to do with emissions or this issue. Our other one has been great so it's here to stay. But in the words of my wife "Unless I absolutely have to, I'm going to refuse any messing with the engine that reduces performance or increases fuel consumption; I like my car just the way it is".

And I wouldn't feel an ounce of guilt over this, given the number of people that drive SUVs and pick-ups certified under more lenient "truck" rules, as personal automobiles. It just goes to show the inanity of regulations when you can drive a truck as your personal vehicle when you can't drive a diesel. How many more SUVs and pick-ups are on the road as personal vehicles than TDIs in North America? TDIs are a fart in the breeze in comparison.

dubStrom said:

The only significant difference is the NOx. But don't forget that by driving a more efficient vehicle, you still emit less NOx than a compliant V8 (Ford/GMC) or inline 6 (RAM) turbo diesel truck.

Click to expand...

Not so.

NOx is measured as the amount emitted per distance traveled, as in grams/mile.

the beave said:

It's just too funny.
My Wife and I just bought our 2015 Jetta on September 3rd, right after the 2nd Seahawks Pre Season Game, where we saw the VW Tele Commercial for '2015 Blowout deal'.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Blow out indeed!!
2nd Fill up actual miles divided by gallons needed to fill up: 52.6 MPG That's combined with about 40% Highway.
Next two week driving MPG Actual miles divided by fill up gallons, this time 30% Highway miles driven and 70% city: 42.1 MPG, still kicks butt in my opinion.
So I'm happy, and you know, as long as the car breaks in well, I'm not even going to give this a second thought and when a year or 10000 miles goes by (whichever comes first of course) then we'll see what happens. I'm just honestly glad this came out After we bought the car cause we got a very good deal on it.
Now, if the Government gets a check for $37000 for my car that costs $23000 and I get 6 years of payments, I'm a gonna be Pi**ed.
the Beave, loving Our 2015 Jetta.......................

Click to expand...

I'm sorry that your team still has Pete Carroll.

lt2334 said:

Everyone that owns one of these cars that are affected. We need lawyers that will sue for our money back or a credit towards another vehicle.

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and get rich in the process.....NO THANKS!!

oilhammer said:

We don't know the specific algorithms involved, and likely won't ever. So it is impossible to say exactly what parameters must be met and for how long to make the ECU go into the "I better behave myself or Baby Jesus may cry and birds may fall out of the sky and polar bears may have to start swimming" mode. But it would appear that the steering angle may indeed be a big input here. Kind of a sneaky thing to do. It though it was kinda clever that MB was using steering angle trends to map the variable PM scheduling for tire rotations. I never thought that it could be used for this.

Click to expand...

Not to quote just you, this thread is blowing up fast, but for my opinion for all...

Programming is limitless, especially now that processors can crunch serious data extremely fast. In the hacker world, if you need to do something and there isn't software to do it, then write it.

Anything is possible with enough input, clock cycles, and a constant electric supply....

More then one way to skin a cat! Sounds like VW nicked their finger on this one.


A big question in my head, has the emissions equipment been pushed past the limits or mechanically compromised because of the software? Cracked dpf? Clogged filters? Etc? Is my cracked dpf warrantied now since it's a 09, but 240k? Curious how far the ripples will go on this headache....


Sent from my One using Tapatalk

Interesting part of the research white paper: The passat was observed to go thru dpf regeneration on a constant schedule of every 756 km.

Is there an equivalent of the FlashZilla for 2009 to 2016 cars?

I have one for my 2004 and it will read and write the ECU program. Before tuning, the original program is read into the device, and I can flash it back to stock programming whenever I want.

Normally, the purpose of these devices is to extract the program and e-mail it to a tuner. They send a file back to you which you use to load into the ECU through the OBD-II port. However, I don't see why you couldn't just use it to backup your current program so you can put it back after a visit to the dealer.

It would be a lot easier than buying a spare ECU, which some people are talking about. (I don't blame you though, I have three ECU's for my Golf.)

As an added bonus, once you have one of these devices, getting a tune is just an e-mail away, should you choose to do it.

imurrx said:

I'm sorry that your team still has Pete Carroll.

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I'm not!

VWclassaction said:

Will be interesting to see how much of the $7.3Billion that VW has set aside is given to each TDI owner. Wonder if this the biggest consumer fraud case of all time.
Here's a website I found http://www.emissionsripoff.com/ for those who are interested in joining the lawsuit.

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so i am already seeing advertisements for class actions lawsuits as above. Im hesitant to join in without knowing what action VW is goin to take to make this right.

What are all your thoughts on this? Like many of you, I bought my 09 TDI bc i do a crazy amount of driving and i wanted to save on fuel but not compromise driveability.

If I end up having to get a reflash that ruins MPG's or need to retrofit of one of these "urea holding tanks" that i heard mentioned (which im guessing may also hurt MPGs???) what am I to do? suck it up and drive it? join a class action lawsuit bc any money is better than no money? hold out to see if VW comes up with a better option for the owners that are affected?

My car wasnt cheap and i feel its been devalued pretty bad. Id keep it if i can have it run the way it does now but if not id rather be bought out and move on.

Im really curious if my 2010 is stuck in "test" mode... or something... I NEVER see above 40 or 42mpg on a VERY good day!!!! closer to mid to high 30's on a typical tank of highway driving, yes I do keep up with traffic doing 65 to 70 on average and sit in rut hour traffic too, and I do tend to drive my car a bit harder (my other cars are an Audi S4 that I just sold and an Audi S6 LOL) but even before I picked up either of the Audi;s and came from my old '00 Golf tdi I NEVER saw above 42mpg... When I hear of other people getting mid to high 40's and even into the 50's with their SWs I get jealous and then I think about this entire thread of everyone complaining that they might start getting 40ish mpg... LOL welcome to my world from day one!!! but it is what the car is "supposed" to get, and it is about twice what either of my Audis get LOL

billmn said:

Im really curious if my 2010 is stuck in "test" mode... or something... I NEVER see above 40 or 42mpg on a VERY good day!!!! closer to mid to high 30's on a typical tank of highway driving, yes I do keep up with traffic doing 65 to 70 on average and sit in rut hour traffic too, and I do tend to drive my car a bit harder (my other cars are an Audi S4 that I just sold and an Audi S6 LOL) but even before I picked up either of the Audi;s and came from my old '00 Golf tdi I NEVER saw above 42mpg... When I hear of other people getting mid to high 40's and even into the 50's with their SWs I get jealous and then I think about this entire thread of everyone complaining that they might start getting 40ish mpg... LOL welcome to my world from day one!!! but it is what the car is "supposed" to get, and it is about twice what either of my Audis get LOL

Click to expand...

the way you drive it has a big impact. I have been at both ends of the spectrum in my 09 TDI. I have a heavy foot and love the turbo, so I see high-30's low-40's. However when I challenge myself to stretch the limits, I've seen 50+. Trust me, you'd know it if it was in limp mode...worst two weeks of my life.

bhtooefr said:

In any case, I want to see some retesting of the 2007-2009 E320 Bluetec, as it may actually offer the best possibility for a system that could work to retrofit the CBEA and CJAA cars - LNT plus a SCR that works off of ammonia emissions from the LNT, no urea tank needed.

Click to expand...

Great idea, this sounds good. Hopefully VW will make a phone call to Mercedes and ask for help. Better do this right. VW has to now take some real world driven cars, retrofit them and test them. VW Engineers will work it out, I'm sure they've thought of this, hopefully. Or hopefully they're reading here too.
This will take time to develop a solution which will hopefully make everybody happy, that is the problem, make everybody happy. Mercedes and VW unite ! Pay some of those Mercedes engineers to look at our crappy cars, maybe an outside party can figure it out.

imurrx said:

I'm sorry that your team still has Pete Carroll.

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Yeah, I Love him then I think he's a ding bat.
But boy, he sure looked like he was about to get sick
a couple of times this last game.
But the Seahawks are like riding a roller coaster.
they go up and then they go down..............

So, guys, I need to get some details on the 'Information' center
on my dash, Since i have the Jetta S it just has the standare 'info center' and not the premium one.
The instructions in the cars owners manual is at best almost totally confusing, deferring to the 'premium' info cluster and not really saying how to properly use the standard i center. So if someone could please pop a link to the proper thread on this site I would very much appreciate it.

Oh, and also on VW's Owners site, their 'video's are all for the 'premium' features, kind of stupid not addressing the 'S' model.

Thanks,
the Beave

zellerj said:

(482,000 cars in us x 200,000 miles x 0.8 gm per km) / 0.62 miles per km = 2.8 x 10e12 grams nox per fleet = 124,387 mt nox emission per fleet over the life of the car.

Now how significant is this:

According to un date, the us emits 100 kg nox per capita x 300 million people in the us = 30 million mt total per year x 15 years life of car = 240 million mt nox emitted by usa over 15 years

percent vw nox emissions in the us = 124,387 mt / 240 million x 100 =
0.027%

which is pretty insignificant. As shakespear said - much ado about nothing.

Regards

Click to expand...

this guys world overflows with rationalization and justification to break the law

SageBrush said:

Yep, but that can be solved with a harder dyno test. Is that the WLTP ? If the on-road fuel economy of the (turbo GDI ?) is really as poor as you say, I'm surprised that market forces have not corrected the matter, at least in Europe where fuel is $8+ a gallon.

Click to expand...

Yes, WLTP is the harder dyno test. (Or, more correctly, a set of harder dyno tests, that are applied to different classes of vehicle based on what they are capable of. And, it also solves the problem that the NEDC is concerned with, which made it such an easy test, where a slow vehicle that they want to certify could fail out of the test if it's too hard. If the vehicle's heavy for its class (and therefore would fail out of the test), it gets to run the slower phase again instead.)

I think it's a case that market forces haven't had time to correct, because small displacement turbo gassers in place of diesels or NA gassers is a relatively new trend. And, in most cases, they're not doing any WORSE than the NA gassers they're replacing, and have better low-end torque. It's just that the NEDC especially claims they do a lot better, and they just don't. (The US tests are harder to game by simply staying out of boost at light throttle, which is why small-displacement turbo gassers don't get ridiculously high fuel economy claims relative to their actual performance. The sole exception to that is the F-150 EcoBoost, where they designed to the unloaded condition, but you put a big trailer on, and suddenly the real-world MPG goes into the crapper, worse than the 5.0 V8.)

SageBrush said:

An on-road test is going to be a mess. Perhaps they will just have something ad-hoc to screen for VW type cheats.

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Yeah, repeatability is the real problem with on-road tests.

PlaneCrazy said:

And I wouldn't feel an ounce of guilt over this, given the number of people that drive SUVs and pick-ups certified under more lenient "truck" rules, as personal automobiles. It just goes to show the inanity of regulations when you can drive a truck as your personal vehicle when you can't drive a diesel. How many more SUVs and pick-ups are on the road as personal vehicles than TDIs in North America? TDIs are a fart in the breeze in comparison.

Click to expand...

Depends on the emission - for everything but CO2, any vehicle under 8500 lbs GVWR is held to the same standards as a TDI is.

SageBrush said:

Not so.

NOx is measured as the amount emitted per distance traveled, as in grams/mile.

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It's worth noting that for heavy duty engines (diesels above 8500 GVWR, gassers that are not considered "passenger vehicles" above 8500 GVWR, all gassers above 10,000 GVWR), you can choose to certify either the engine or the chassis. If you certify the engine, you're held to 0.2 g/bhp-hr for US, 0.1 g/bhp-hr (or less if you want NOx credits) for California, I believe. If you certify the chassis, and it's 8500-10,000 GVWR, it's held to 0.2 g/mi (a lot more than the 0.07 g/mi a TDI is allowed, yes, but a lot LESS than the as high as 1.4 g/mi that a CKRA makes, or 2.8 g/mi that a CBEA/CJAA makes). If it's 10,000 to 14,000 GVWR, it's held to 0.4 g/mi.

(The EPA doesn't offer chassis equivalence factors above 14,000 GVWR, though.)

billmn said:

Im really curious if my 2010 is stuck in "test" mode... or something... I NEVER see above 40 or 42mpg on a VERY good day!!!! closer to mid to high 30's on a typical tank of highway driving, yes I do keep up with traffic doing 65 to 70 on average and sit in rut hour traffic too, and I do tend to drive my car a bit harder (my other cars are an Audi S4 that I just sold and an Audi S6 LOL) but even before I picked up either of the Audi;s and came from my old '00 Golf tdi I NEVER saw above 42mpg... When I hear of other people getting mid to high 40's and even into the 50's with their SWs I get jealous and then I think about this entire thread of everyone complaining that they might start getting 40ish mpg... LOL welcome to my world from day one!!! but it is what the car is "supposed" to get, and it is about twice what either of my Audis get LOL

Click to expand...

I never get into the 40's either but thats ok because I doubt the people who do run 80+ on the freeway and generally drive "spiritedly"

Jaloosk said:

VW has something up their sleeves. A company this big doesn't make a move that big without holding a pair of Aces...

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In this case I would apply Napoleon's Corollary to Occam's Razor:

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

totitan said:

I never get into the 40's either but thats ok because I doubt the people who do run 80+ on the freeway and generally drive "spiritedly"

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What I never run 80+ on the freeway ok wait whats the speed limit? LOL in MN the speedlimit is 10 over whatever it is posted so goin up north if it is listed at 70, ya ya Im going 80 and usually getting passed and thats with the AC on full blast with 2 or 4 people in teh car loaded down with camping gear, if only 2 people the car is stuffed to teh brim, if 4 then we have a roof bag too LOL

There is a reason my S6 (4.2 v8) only gets in the mid to high teen for MPH... I NEVER drive spiritied LOL

What do you guys want as a fair compensation for all this?

1. Software flash plus a gift card and extended warranty
2. Software flash plus compensation for the discrepancy in performance and gas mileage.
3. Buyback at KBB's pricing plus 10% premium
4. Buyback at Kbb's pricing plus 10% ONLY if you buy another vw(if not, you get the software flash from #1). New vw will be at a special discounted price as well.
5. Same offer as #3 but extends to the entire VW group of cars.
6. Make up your own offer and discuss

Singuy said:

What do you guys want as a fair compensation for all this?

1. Software flash plus a gift card and extended warranty
2. Software flash plus compensation for the discrepancy in performance and gas mileage.
3. Buyback at KBB's pricing plus 10% premium
4. Buyback at Kbb's pricing plus 10% ONLY if you buy another vw(if not, you get the software flash from #1). New vw will be at a special discounted price as well.
5. Same offer as #3 but extends to the entire VW group of cars.
6. Make up your own offer and discuss

Click to expand...

I'd be content with free scheduled service for as long as I own the car, and an extended warranty on the emissions stuff since they will most likely ruin it with the fix. I love my car too much to participate in a buyback, they'd have to give me a nice chunk of change