Tsi engines

Fix_Until_Broke

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Very nice write up. Does make sense. Would brand of oil made any difference?

And nice babbitt shine, that's not a switch-a-roo is it? the top bearing in the cap? ;)

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Some brands might be better than others, but if there's not a specification or they're not advertising it, then there's likely no controls in place to insure it's maintained so one batch might be "clean" and the next might not.

No switching on the main bearing :)
 

2.2TDI

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I am not paranoid, I don't own one... LOL.... I drive an ALH every day. 542k miles, no worries here. :D
Yea and my alh was nothing but headaches... LOL

you should see the stack of paperwork I got with the ALH before buying it... So many things went wrong with that car... Then I had to sink a bunch of money into it.

Nevermind the guy who bought it off me asking me where it was losing coolant from 2 weeks later... I wonder what ever happened to it.

But hey, ALHs are supposed to be dead reliable right? Well, not in the case of the original owner and then me.

Point I'm making is even a car like a golf or jetta with an ALH engine, which is supposed to be great for its reliability can be problematic. Other then me, I know several people who have had issues with them but I'm not automatically going to discard it as a bad car overall because of that

End of the day, I'm going to enjoy my gen 3 tsi and not worry about every single one off that shows up in the indie shops or dealer... Do they have weak points? Sure. Does that mean every single one will run into those issues? No.

Gen 1 and 2 are a different story and I wouldn't touch one either
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Revisit this thread in five years, see who wins. :)

BTW, people go gaga over Subaru, too.... I have TWO 2017 Foresters here waiting on parts. One with a broken $1000 downpipe/catalyst and another with a blown up A/C compressor. Barely a year out of the factory.

Stuff breaks. Some more than others. The stuff on older cars that used to break we thought was so awful is trivial in comparison to some of the newer stuff. A main relay in a 2000 Accord is nothing compared to the blown up VVT actuators in the 2013-15 Accords (and there IS a TSB for that, does that make you feel better? :rolleyes: ).

BTW, this morning I had yet another broken EA888 car in here LMAO.... water pump leaking.... 65k miles. SHOCKER!!! :eek: (not).
 

2.2TDI

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Revisit this thread in five years, see who wins. :)
BTW, people go gaga over Subaru, too.... I have TWO 2017 Foresters here waiting on parts. One with a broken $1000 downpipe/catalyst and another with a blown up A/C compressor. Barely a year out of the factory.
Stuff breaks. Some more than others. The stuff on older cars that used to break we thought was so awful is trivial in comparison to some of the newer stuff. A main relay in a 2000 Accord is nothing compared to the blown up VVT actuators in the 2013-15 Accords (and there IS a TSB for that, does that make you feel better? :rolleyes: ).
BTW, this morning I had yet another broken EA888 car in here LMAO.... water pump leaking.... 65k miles. SHOCKER!!! :eek: (not).
What VVT actuator are you talking about? I just pulled up my honda ebiz at work and typed VVT actuator in ESIS and there's nothing. Do you mean VTC actuator? I know VVT and VTC is the same thing but honda doesn't use VVT terminology... But anyways, I've seen many claims for VTC actuator but only CRVs... Bulletin doesn't exist for accord, only for 2012-2014 crv and 2013 accord crosstour and this is in Canada... So not sure what you're on about unless the bulletins in the US are different then here

Yes stuff does break and it's fairly obvious that when it does it's more complicated on newer cars then old ones, diesel or gas...

Like I said, I'm not worried
 
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jason_

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Yeah, well...

Sounds like I'll just check vcds occasionally for chain stretch....

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2000alhVW

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I'm more than a little disappointed reading this thread.
How could VW get something so rudimentary, so wrong?

Nearly every I4 engine I've seen or owned, going back to the late 80s, was chain drive. It's simply...superior in every way. Timing belts are awful, which is why the industry has abandoned them.
Then...somehow, there's VW who insists on a belt for the diesel. Didn't make much sense to me. The primary reason to choose a belt is for noise consideration. But...it's a diesel...? It's already loud. Mercedes and BMW have used chains on their USDM light diesels for decades.

This isn't to say there haven't been minor issues along the way. My 1989 Nissan 240sx (single cam in those days) had a habit of the plastic chain guides getting brittle and breaking off. This is a somewhat common issue of chain-drive motors from the 80s and 90s(cough cough BMW). But it really just causes some chain slap on start up, and sometimes a bit of noise at idle.
Sometimes chain tensioners, which are/were typically controlled by oil pressure, would "fail" or become sticky over time. I replaced the chain tensioner on a friend's 1998 Corolla (1.8 I4 dual cam). I think it took like 45 mins? 10mm wrench and a youtube video. Likely booked at ".3 hrs"

Larger, more complex engines stuck with timing belts for a bit longer. My 1994 Nissan pickup truck (VG30E 3.0L V6 motor) had a belt. The early, "high maintenance", ones were rated for 60k, and they increased it to either 90k or 120k later on.
Then I got my 2000 Toyota Tacoma. 3.4L V6. The 4-bangers (in those trucks) had been using chains for 10-15 years at that point, same with Nissan. Timing belt interval was 100k, I believe.
Then I moved onto 2005 Tacoma 2.7L 4-cyl. Chain. And later upgraded to a 4.0L V6 (chain) truck of the same year.
2005, the first year of that model iteration, is when Toyota did away with the belts entirely. As with Nissan, and most of the industry, by that time, I assume. Again, I'm assuming materials availability finally caught up with the engineering, and allowed them to finally make the jump to chains entirely.

The reason they didn't use chains on the V6 engines prior was due to the added complexity and noise. A 4cyl has one chain that's pretty direct. Crank sprocket, cam sprocket, tensioner.
Here's the timing setup on a Nissan KA24E motor. An engine from the late 80s.


On V motors, you either have to have multiple chains or...some really complex routing.

This is a Toyota 4.0L v6 variable valve timing motor, by the way. Introduced in ~2003.

And then you've got fancy-pants Cummins with their timing GEARS


Now, I wasn't in the design room when Cummins made the 5.9 in the 80s, but I assume they had reliability in mind, as that's somewhat important to their customers - truckers. I'm sure you're familiar with the high regard for reliability that the Cummins motor receives. This is one of the many reasons why. Also, if you'll notice, that smaller, recessed gear to the right of the 2 large gears - that's the power steering. Yes, the power steering is gear driven off the timing gears. Also, one of the gears at the bottom is for the fuel pump, and the other is water pump. Cummins didn't play games with silly timing belts - for a reason. You can literally drive this truck home with no battery, and no alternator. Sold from 1989-1997 until they added computerization from 1998-2002, but kept the same block until 2009 (?) and continue to use gears presently.

The only benefits of a belt are that it's much cheaper, and a much easier to produce system. In the past 5-10 years, it's very occasionally seen, pretty much only on very cheap cars/motors. Economy cars primarily - think: Ford Fiesta. Literally everything else has a chain.
But why would you burden the customer with a belt if you didn't have to? Talking to someone about timing belt intervals is like when you grandmother says to you "be careful driving in the rain so you don't get your points wet." Huh? What are you talking about? "Points"?? Burdening your customer with a cumbersome $1500 maintenance job, that they're going to ignore anyway, that you could prevent? It seems like a win-win. Customer doesn't have to pay unnecessary main't fees, AND car manufacture doesn't get bad rap of "unreliable cars smashing valves after 5 years".
 

Matt-98AHU

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I don't know how many chains you've personally replaced, but they tend to be a lot easier to jump time when they don't have adequate tension. Belts don't skip time very easily, believe it or not. And material science has allowed modern timing belts to last around 150,000 miles now, which to most engineers in the industry is the entire vehicle's "designed lifetime."

Belts are far cheaper and less labor intensive to replace as well. And to someone who wants to go well over 300,000 miles, you can ensure the engine stays better in time throughout that period when it's a belt. Any chain will eventually stretch and require replacement. The unfortunate thing with chains is there is no specified change interval and they will jump time largely without warning. Whereas a belt, if you simply change it on time, you simply don't have to worry about that little "what if".

I suspect why VW stubbornly clings to timing belts on the 4 cylinder diesels in particular is because of how much less prone belts are to skipping time with the harsh vibrations inherent to a 4 cylinder, high compression diesel engine. They stick with them because they are more reliable in this duty cycle if you're following manufacturer recommendations.

I suppose the only OHC chain 4 cylinder diesel that is reliable is the double chain Mercedes used to use a long time ago. Those are prone to eventual stretch as well, but having two chains certainly helped longevity and reliability.

Just wait until you realize Ford's Ecoboost 3 cylinder uses an oil-bathed timing belt!
 

x12gt

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Welp I was strongly considering replacing my mk5 with a mk6 gti but oilhammer has me more than a little spooked
 

2.2TDI

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Well given the BPY 2.0t wasn't the most reliable engine either, I doubt a mk6 gti engine would be worse. Not sure if you're aware of the mk5/6/7fourms....lots of info there. I do agree that Gen 1 and 2 ea888 has a lot of issues, more so then the gen 3 engines, but no offense to oilhammer, he makes it sound like these engines are ticking time bombs... With that thinking you might aswell not buy a CR tdi either as the HPFP might blow up any minute
 
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jason_

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Awesome thread.

I'm going to change my oil every 9800 miles.

And yeah, all my equipment around the farm and attachments on property are mocked for 5.9 12v...

Honestly their size, fuel consumption, reliability, much less moving parts then a newer power joke (but not the ih444 Navistar) or a duracraps, and cost to rebuild if needed...

Absolutely impressive.

The 8.9 isn't all bad either. Just an God damn ****er to start, no glow plugs or grid heater. All battery and starter when it's zero out, all 4 batteries and even then you're hoping for a lucky morning....

I have 5 of those in the more larger loaders.

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Powder Hound

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Does anyone use a carbon deposit fuel additive to help prevent the issue? It would seem logical to use something like Red Line.
The reason the intakes clog on a direct injection gasser is the same reason the ALH intakes clog: soot from EGR and crankcase vapors creating sludge that sticks there. Direct injected gassers no longer have fuel in the intake charge air to wash the deposits off, so you get what we've battled for ages: clogged intakes.

Oh, and those wonderful and horribly expensive plastic water pumps are one of the big reasons my son sold their tig. Whoever says german engineers don't screw pooches is a fool.

Cheers,

PH
 

2.2TDI

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Who makes a durable and reliable drive train today?
Apperantly no one. What bothers me about all this is as I have mentioned before, you can sit behind a desk and nitpick every single damn manufacture and you will be able to find common problems amongst all of them that you can consider the make/model unreliable.

I can easily, and I mean easily, tell you to not buy a relatively new Honda because of so many different things breaking on them which out of warranty will cost a small fortunate, but I'm not going to because just because of some weak points as it doesn't mean every single Honda on the road will have those specific problems
 

turbobrick240

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I'm more than a little disappointed reading this thread.
How could VW get something so rudimentary, so wrong?
Nearly every I4 engine I've seen or owned, going back to the late 80s, was chain drive. It's simply...superior in every way. Timing belts are awful, which is why the ...
Well, I've owned too many timing belt I4 vehicles to keep track of. The belt was never a problem. My redblock Volvos with belts easily outlasted my 'yota 22r's with chains. One of them went over 400k miles before the rust dissolved it. The tdi's don't seem to have any problem racking up high miles either. The timing chain on my uncle's Porsche cost him a small fortune when it jumped and completely destroyed the engine.
 
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2000alhVW

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I don't know how many chains you've personally replaced, but they tend to be a lot easier to jump time when they don't have adequate tension. Belts don't skip time very easily, believe it or not. And material science has allowed modern timing belts to last around 150,000 miles now, which to most engineers in the industry is the entire vehicle's "designed lifetime."
Belts are far cheaper and less labor intensive to replace as well. And to someone who wants to go well over 300,000 miles, you can ensure the engine stays better in time throughout that period when it's a belt. Any chain will eventually stretch and require replacement. The unfortunate thing with chains is there is no specified change interval and they will jump time largely without warning. Whereas a belt, if you simply change it on time, you simply don't have to worry about that little "what if".
I suspect why VW stubbornly clings to timing belts on the 4 cylinder diesels in particular is because of how much less prone belts are to skipping time with the harsh vibrations inherent to a 4 cylinder, high compression diesel engine. They stick with them because they are more reliable in this duty cycle if you're following manufacturer recommendations.
I suppose the only OHC chain 4 cylinder diesel that is reliable is the double chain Mercedes used to use a long time ago. Those are prone to eventual stretch as well, but having two chains certainly helped longevity and reliability.
Just wait until you realize Ford's Ecoboost 3 cylinder uses an oil-bathed timing belt!
Lol. Never replaced a timing chain, and likely never will. ;)
You're losing me on the inconsistent logic here.

You say:
  • Timing belts are now able to last 150,000 miles
  • Timing belts are superior because they are much easier to change
  • Engineers consider the "designed lifetime" to be 150,000 miles
If the belt lasts the entire "Designed lifetime" then why worry about designing it to be 'easy to change'?

hint: 'designed lifetime' isn't 150,000 miles (at least for non-VW cars). Some parts may be designed to break after 150k, but the entire car is still good. This is for the buyers who justify their $35k purchase on "we're gonna drive the wheels off it!" If a car was only designed to be good for 150k, then the resale value would approach that of a Hyundai from 2001......

"Belts don't skip time very easily, believe it or not."

LOL right! They just break with zero warning causing this forum and craigslist to be littered with "driving on the highway, downshifted from 5th to 2nd (lol oops :p), and SUDDENLY! no power???? I managed to coast to the shoulder, and now can't get car to restart. It sounds funny! :confused:"

"[timing chains] will jump time largely without warning."

Huh? Timing chains spend their entire lives stretching, according to you, then they jump time "without warning"???

Whereas a belt, if you simply change it on time, you simply don't have to worry about that little "what if".

Ahhh...the good ol' 'what if' that motivates people based on fear and paranoia. Such a self-serving bias. You can literally use it to justify ANYTHING.
"If you simply buy a new car every 3 years, you simply don't have to worry about that little "what if" your airbags went bad"

The reason the intakes clog on a direct injection gasser is the same reason the ALH intakes clog: soot from EGR and crankcase vapors creating sludge that sticks there. Direct injected gassers no longer have fuel in the intake charge air to wash the deposits off, so you get what we've battled for ages: clogged intakes.

Oh, and those wonderful and horribly expensive plastic water pumps are one of the big reasons my son sold their tig. Whoever says german engineers don't screw pooches is a fool.

Cheers,

PH
I think The Hound is taking pooch fornication pretty seriously here.

It's true though. Seems the gasoline being mixed with the air prior to the combustion chamber helped clean things up a bit, as gasoline is a solvent. When the fuel injector is moved into the cylinder (direct injection), it the fuel can't clean the valves.
This is a big reason why a lot of manufacturers have moved to DI, but kept the older port injection technology (count 'em! TWO fuel injection systems!) to help clean valves , aid in starting, and other emissions reasons.
Who makes a durable and reliable drive train today?
My girlfriend beats the piss out of her 2012 Camry daily... TIMING CHAIN MOTOR, BY THE WAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH
130k miles and no complaints.
I feel so bad for this car. It makes me cringe whenever I drive with her. She goes through tires in like 25k miles.
Her driving is literally 100% throttle - brakes - 100% throttle - brakes.
Parks on steep hills, never uses parking brake. When it jerks on the parking pawl, I die a little bit inside.
130k miles, zero motor problems. Original ball joints, tie rods, axles. I'm pretty sure nothing's ever been replaced except brakes and tires. There ain't a pothole in town this girl misses.
Oh, there was some weird issue with a torque converter lockup issue. Toyota extended the warranty to 150k miles and replaced the TC for free.

Oil changes typically escape her memory, must be why it has an oil change reminder light on the dash. God forbid this girl had to devote mental energy to worrying about a timing belt replacement. Good thing that's an issue of the past!
 

Pat Dolan

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I am speaking of all of them (read my post again). I am NOT nitpicking. The only reason the newest ones (again, like I said, phase in starting in 2014 depending on model) have not had as much problems is simply because they haven't been on the road as long. The crappy dumbass rear main seal design is STILL the exact same. The water pump is only slightly different, and WE'VE ALREADY seen those failing. Breather system is only slightly different, and WE'VE ALREADY seen those failing.

When you have to explain to someone why their 3 year old car needs its transmission pulled out, and it is out of warranty, trust me, there is no nitpicking. :mad:

By the way, the trade magazine "Der Fix" this month has several good articles about these all too common issues with EA888 engines.

And yes, there are certainly issues with diesel engines,.... They also do not have some idiotic plastic water pump housing bolted to the side of the block buried under the intake.
You have raised a fair number of points.

In a previous life, I made lubricants. I can strongly agree that shorter oil change intervals are NOT necessary except under special circumstances. IIRC, there is some data out there that the contamination of oil from the change is of greater significance than the contamination from a decently filtered oil in service. Speaking of which, changing filters at short intervals is about the worst thing you can do. Filters work best when they have built up a "filter cake" of filtrate on the surface of the medium. Really good filtration systems use a filter pressure differential system to define best time to change (have never seen such a thing in cars, but have in truck engines).

EA888 engines seem typical of VWs inability to do engineering thoroughly these days. I have one in the driveway now that my daughter bought, but I was too lazy and stupid to do the research on why one can not trust VW engineering any more - and it swallowed a few valves when the timing chain tensioner failed. I also measured the chain, and it was considerably longer than a timing chain of its relatively low mileage should have been. Pulley wear was also far worse than anything that age should have been. Yeah, maybe Toyota or even Trabant for that matter can make/buy/spec a timing chain that will last the lifetime of an engine, but VW/Audi can not.

Then there is the water pump. Have replaced two on that engine, since what is happening is that the "O" ring gasket material is NOT compatible with VW antifreeze, it absorbs the stuff and expands the gasket in its groove, and the very small bit of plastic that is supposed to contain the gasket is forced enough to crack and leak like a sieve. Yeah, I once again suppose that may be something that Honda or Tata can get right - but VW can not.

Rear main was something I just had to address. The idiotic piece of crap that VW installed is once more a fine example that all of the decent engineers in Germany seem to have emigrated to China or some damn place - because they sure as hell don't work for VW. I installed one of Issam's very nice seal kits and could not be happier with the quality of the part and the service of designing yet another fix for VWs progressive incompetence.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Yep. It is really sad, isn't it? No idea why VAG felt they needed a "clean slate" engine anyway. But boy howdy did they fail miserably at this one. Fortunately, the diesel branch said "um, no", and just modernized the old engine mostly... right in time to have them banned from our shores. :(
 

2.2TDI

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Yep. It is really sad, isn't it? No idea why VAG felt they needed a "clean slate" engine anyway. But boy howdy did they fail miserably at this one. Fortunately, the diesel branch said "um, no", and just modernized the old engine mostly... right in time to have them banned from our shores. :(
Yea right... the petrol engineers screwed up some designs and the diesel ones were too lazy to figure out how to NOT cheat on emissions so they just said ah screw it it's easier to put a defeat device... Don't act like the diesel engineers are any better then the petrol ones... Vw may have screwed the pooch on the gen 1 and 2 ea888 but they sure as hell ruined everything with their little software stunt on diesels... Please, stop defending vw's diesels as if they're the holy grail, they're not
 

2.2TDI

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WHAT??? Oh, the horror! 19 years and a 3 digit member number on this forum wasted!! :(
PH
What? What are you talking about?

Seriously, people need to stop putting vw and their tdis on a pedistal, especially after what they did...
 

sonspot

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I'm getting a headache, this is why I shouldn't read entire threads before posting (bad Idea lol) anyhow my E46 with timing chain was still going strong at 380k km yes I know its a inline 6 and not a 4l.. I'm hoping to pickup a 2016 1.4 tsi tomorrow. I going to drive it and love it, maintain it and love it; if it breaks that would suck but life goes on. Apparently my BRM sucks compare to others VW so I might keep it or see if I can get $5 for it. If I have to leave this forum to get info that's what I'll do but I'm already here so..... lol


Someone asked something about oil, why are you bringing up old shyt...
 
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740GLE

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I have yet to run into any of the issues you speak of in the gen 3, along with many other people who own one of the two gen 3 engines. Time will tell but i'm not worried or paranoid like some...
You're not reading enough of the Mk7 forums/facebook groups. ;)

Another one that scares me is balance shaft seals, similar oil weaping as a rear main seal but I think more complicated to correct.

I'm optimistic but with only 24K on my EA888.3 by no means am I going to say its a trouble free/reliable powerplant. While I'm also not parranoid I'd rather be realistic, I'll let you know at 100K if my opinion is different.

The cost cutting VW put into this "world wide" engine is pretty amazing, there are about 1/4 the sensors compared to a TDI, so the ECU is "guestimating" for parameters all the time, no MAF, no EGT just to name a few. Also VW is very happy at how thin they were able to design the block, something like 2mm in some areas, all to save a few ounces.

As for the timing chain/tensioners, I'm hoping for 100K before I start worrying about issues be it RMS, water pump, intake clogging, and hopefully 150K plus before I worry about anything timing related.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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What? What are you talking about?
Seriously, people need to stop putting vw and their tdis on a pedistal, especially after what they did...
They're on a pedestal because they deserve to be there. My enthusiasm for these engines is unaffected by shenanigans with the EPA and the courts.

When you read about the engine failures described in this thread and compare it to the longevity of a TDI (especially rotary pump ones), it's hard not to be impressed. We have multiple TDIs in my family with over 250K on them. Three of them have never had any major engine work done in all those miles, and stil deliver 40+ MPG consistently no matter how they're driven. I wonder what it would take one of these chain-driven TSIs to get to the 370K my son's ALH Golf has on it. The only engine work that car's had in its lifetime is new injector nozzles.

I managed to kill the ALH in my Wagon by making twice stock power with a 6000 RPM redline for 120K miles. at 295K it finally had some blowby, although it was still running fine and delivering great FE. And now, with 80K on its replacement engine, it's going strong. If I can keep the body from rusting I think I can drive this car indefinitely. Doesn't seem that there are many modern engines you can say that about. The EA288, although more complex, may prove to be equally durable, like the OM651 that's in a lot of Mercedes. Good engines are still out there. But it doesn't appear that VW TSIs are among them.
 

crazyrunner33

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To add to IndigoBlueWagon's point, there's a reason there's a reason Cummins chose to work with VW to make small marine diesel engines. Mercury and Mastercraft still use a lot of TDI engines in their marine applications, but will never touch the TSI.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The older gasoline engines are pretty good, too, for the most part. The belt driven 4 cylinders anyway, especially those that share the same basic construction as the ALH/BEW/BHW/BRM/CBEA/CJAA, like the AWP, AWM, AVG, AZH, BEV, etc. My AWM has 230k miles on it, and despite pushing two tons of AWD Passat around through a slushbox, still makes good power and has never been apart aside from the valve cover gasket and the breather tubes. And it makes 170hp, just like a brand new 1.8L turbo does. I have several customers with 2.slo Jettas and Golfs and NBs with well over a quarter million miles... veru dependable, very durable. Use a little oil, but so long as you know how to use a dipstick it isn't a problem.... and that isn't any different than many other engines, including some of the EA888s that gulp down 5+ liters between services.
 

jason_

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Bump.

So the tsi is garbage, or only if neglected, or luck of the draw? I'm half drunk Sunday morning and rereading this flame war I started.

Ha.

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BamaB4S

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Originally Posted by 2.2TDI View Post
"Seriously, people need to stop putting vw and their tdis on a pedistal, especially after what they did.."

So what motivated you to register for this forum?

The VW TDI deserves to be on a pedestal due to their lengthy history of durability and performance. Casting stones at the TDI won't resolve any buyer's remorse you may have with the TSI.
 

2.2TDI

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Originally Posted by 2.2TDI View Post
"Seriously, people need to stop putting vw and their tdis on a pedistal, especially after what they did.."

So what motivated you to register for this forum?

The VW TDI deserves to be on a pedestal due to their lengthy history of durability and performance. Casting stones at the TDI won't resolve any buyer's remorse you may have with the TSI.

LOL


Buyers remorse? Yea a little, only because I still like diesels for what they are.
Had I bought a tdi, it would've only been because of the emotional factor. Instead I chose to use reason in making my purchase and I came to the conclusion that a diesel was completely useless for my given situation, considering that I don't drive enough to ever recoup the 4000-5000 dollar premium that a diesel would've cost me over the TSI

Why am I a member? because I had an ALH tdi for almost 3 years. I truly did like that car, it was great in many respects, and terrible in others... each engine and car has both good and bad

While there are definitely some things which are blown out of proportion regarding diesels to make them look really bad and sway people away from them, I believe the reality is that they are dying and people here seem to want to deny facts and try to blame someone or something because of it...

You guys can keep drinking the diesel koolaid and I would love to do the same, but I am being realistic about what is going on in the world. People in Europe are starting to dump their old diesels as it is becoming harder and harder to register them, or keep them road worthy due to laws becoming stricter. Not only that, their resale value is starting to drop, and at some point the resale value will be utter garbage... just go take a look at Euro 3 or Euro 4 diesels on the market now in some countries. New diesels which are Euro 6d certified have it easier but there are only a handful of them and not everyone is able to afford the latest and greatest technology...

I really don't care what you all think at the end of the day, I just get annoyed with people who have tunnel vision and refuse to believe anything else other then what they think is good. I swear this thread is like 87 vs 91 octane threads in other forums. Some people literally refuse to believe facts and continue with their 91 is good theory based on their feel good assumptions and armchair expertise, or they will find every small factual detail to nitpick about why the 87 may be bad so they make 91 look good. You can easily do the same with the TDI VS TSI debate in this case... go on any other car forum... BMW, Mercedes, Audi or even something like Golf MK7 and see how quickly someone will point out how many things are wrong with a TDI or diesel and will shut down any diesel lover, especially if it's a petrol dominated forum
 
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