EA288 confirmed across the board by year end

really?

Really

We got 330k miles out of a gaser bug with zero breakdowns. A diesel golf would of went 50O easy

52172 said:

Diesel VW's regardless of the year run 500k miles easy with simple maintenacnce. Cams last 300k miles heads and valves last 500k. Most importantly is high quality full synthetic oil is used and changed at proper intervals. 10k is pushing it, I change mine at 8k.

Click to expand...

Based on the number of engine internal parts we sell (valves and guides, piston rings, rod and crank bearings, etc.) a lot of them aren't making it that far. And if you replace a cam and lifters like you did you've already got the belt off, what's the big deal in replacing it?

Keep in mind that you're in CA, where car bodies last far longer than in rust belt states. Most VWs, even with the better rust prevention they now have, are pretty ratty by the time they get over 250K on them unless they're well cared for. I had to have rust repair on my wagon and it's always been garaged, and washed nearly weekly in winter My point is that by 300K or so most owners are ready to move on. We can buy 250-300K TDIs here for very short money, both because they need work and because the current owners are done with them. They do wear out.

I think the reason you sell so many engine parts is due to the fact that so many of these cars do NOT get the proper care. There is no reason a stock, well cared for 4 cyl VAG engine cannot last "indefinitely" under most circumstances.

Even my heavy assed 4Mo B5 Passat's high strung 170hp 1.8t AWM engine is still running like new at 208k miles. No smoke, no sludge, no MIL, and very minimal oil consumption... maybe a liter in 10k miles. Since it was cared for PROPERLY since new, with proper oil, filters, etc. and it was never allowed to run low...

Now I have rebuilt/replaced/unsludged/untooefed more AWP, AWM, AEB, AWW, etc. 1.8t engines over the years than I can possibly remember to count. They all had poor PM history, and this is an engine family that is NOTORIOUS for problems.

I really don't think TDIs are any different. PDs don't eat cams every 100k miles if properly cared for.

The first thing that truly "wears" in them is the valve guides. But even at that, it generally isn't cause for concern. I see too many AHUs, ALHs, BEW, BRMs, BHWs with over 300k and never had anything done to them (save for the BHW's balance shaft) to think that they are ALL "worn out" after 200k miles. You just have to take care of them.

I completely agree. When I was shopping for a replacement for my son's wrecked Golf this winter I found a high percentage of TDIs with new cylinder heads. This is, I'm certain, because of poor maintenance resulting in failed timing belts. Maybe we should go back to pushrods. .

We have three TDIs with over 250K on them that, aside from a bit of smoke on start up and some oil consumption, show no signs of wear. All are stock or nearly stock, all have been well cared for. And all of them were bought used and needed significant catch-up maintenance at purchase. When I bought my B4, it was a reasonably well-cared for car, one owner, But it cost as much as the purchase price in catch-up maintenance. Most owners of older cars are unable or unwilling to spend that money.

It's been noted here many times that VWs require more maintenance than some of their Japanese competition. And more than a few owners seem reluctant to provide that. So the cars suffer.

I'm not saying they're all worn out at 200K miles. But a relatively low percentage of TDIs (or any car, for that matter) make it past 300K. Sure, we all know of some. I drive one daily that's just about to hit 300K. But at some point owners (mistakenly, in my opinion) decide that maintaining at 300K car is good money after bad. Doesn't make sense, but that's the way it seems to be.

oilhammer said:

Snip... I think the reason you sell so many engine parts is due to the fact that so many of these cars do NOT get the proper care. There is no reason a stock, well cared for 4 cyl VAG engine cannot last "indefinitely" under most circumstances.

Click to expand...

A comment about engine longevity, from a retired BMW power plant engineer -

My understanding from talking to a retired BMW power plant engineer, living in the Netherlands, is that the design life was typically 500,000 KM (310.6k miles) for the 1980's production engines (M10, M20, M30, M88, S38, etc.), before you may have to open it for an inspection and refresh. This did not include any service necessary to address any revision during the coarse of the products production history.

However, he was quick to comment that American owners wouldn't get this kind of service out of their powerplant, because Americans don't maintain them to German specified levels! We simply do not maintain BMW powerplants to the levels clearly specified and necessary, to obtain such engine longevity.

I asked about other German vehicles and if they had the same longevity history and he said 'yes, certainly Mercedes and VW, where he had friends working and discussed, as engineers, their desires to create engines of significant power, economy and longevity'. Given the large number of poorly maintained BMW E28 models I've had personal experience with, including my own 1983 BMW 528e <http://www.mye28.com/tech/rods_pages/> which I had for 31 years since new, I have to say this gentleman was correct. Our typical level of auto service is pretty grim, as Oilhammer has noted.
-Rod

ROD-TDI said:

A comment about engine longevity, from a retired BMW power plant engineer -

My understanding from talking to a retired BMW power plant engineer, living in the Netherlands, is that the design life was typically 500,000 KM (310.6k miles) for the 1980's production engines (M10, M20, M30, M88, S38, etc.), before you may have to open it for an inspection and refresh. This did not include any service necessary to address any revision during the coarse of the products production history.

However, he was quick to comment that American owners wouldn't get this kind of service out of their powerplant, because Americans don't maintain them to German specified levels! We simply do not maintain BMW powerplants to the levels clearly specified and necessary, to obtain such engine longevity.

I asked about other German vehicles and if they had the same longevity history and he said 'yes, certainly Mercedes and VW, where he had friends working and discussed, as engineers, their desires to create engines of significant power, economy and longevity'. Given the large number of poorly maintained BMW E28 models I've had personal experience with, including my own 1983 BMW 528e <http://www.mye28.com/tech/rods_pages/> which I had for 31 years since new, I have to say this gentleman was correct. Our typical level of auto service is pretty grim, as Oilhammer has noted.
-Rod

Click to expand...

Great information Rod. Thanks!
Got lost in the E28 forest there.
My UrS4 as stated in my sig was still running exceptionally when sold to a tuner shop in AZ in 2010.
They drove out in a highly modded 93 christened the "vette killer" (lowered, 700+hp) did the purchase, and drove right back with no problems. Last I heard from them when they were tearing down the engine for the HP increase rebuild was that it was still in great shape.
Damn Germans!!! LOL.

Bottom line they will run for AT LEAST 500k miles when cared for. I'm running mine to 600k without a rebuild. All on original valve guides btw.

Lots of people come here asking about which car to buy for "the best economy". With little to no knowledge of the cars requirements or maintenance history. They don't take the suggestions to get it inspected by an expert first or to just change the belt system as a general rule after purchase. They spend their wad on buying the car and have little to nothing left for catch up maintenance. If they aren't DIY they are then in trouble and unhappy about what just transpired. I have bought and flipped a few of these and I always have had runonbeer change the belt system before selling just so they can at least put that out of their mind (for a while).

I bought my daughter an 03 passat gasser a few years back with very low miles. Talked to OH about needed catch up service. Took his list to my local dealer, who has been doing a very good job. Cost about $1000, but only basic maintenance since then. You're right lightflyer1, if you're not willing to pay for it or unable to diy, a used VW may not be for you.

Belt life on the 2012-2014 Passat is 130,000 miles. Belt life on 2015+ TDI is supposed to be "lifetime." I would plan on changing it around 150,000 miles for good measure.

VW's chains are notorious for short life, wearing out the guides, stretching, or the tensioner failing. I'm in oilhammer's camp of belts being a good thing on TDIs.

52172 said:

Diesel VW's regardless of the year run 500k miles easy with simple maintenacnce. Cams last 300k miles heads and valves last 500k. Most importantly is high quality full synthetic oil is used and changed at proper intervals. 10k is pushing it, I change mine at 8k.

Click to expand...

The TDI in your signature is nearly 15 years old, and is pretty simple compared to the design of modern TDIs. If you're expecting any TDI newer than 2009 to go 500,000 miles with only simple maintenance, then you're in for a very rude awakening. Very few things on the new cars are simple. While you might not have a catastrophic failure, routine maintenance and replacement parts will be more expensive than what you're used to due to the massive increase in the number of components.

300k on a PD cam? That'd be rare too.

I went 280 on a ve cam. I think going 500 on an ea288 is feasible. The injection pump will need a rebuild at around 280k and cams replaced probably around the same time. The turbos seem to last between 300-500k miles. I will be expecting all that to go the distance. Along with proper filter replacements and oil changes which are the most important. Good German additives also.

A lot of common rail turbochargers are dying before 200,000 miles. In addition, members are reporting some issues with the exhaust fluid systems and particulate filters. Hopefully the particulate filter issues are a thing of the past, but it would appear that exhaust fluid (and general NOx reduction system) issues are still in the "teething" phase.

At the end of the day, you really can't compare a pre-2009 TDI to a post-2009 TDI.

Yea I'm thinking by the second or third year of the ea288 the bugs should be worked out.

2016 or 2017 Tdi mk7.

Eternally hopeful, I see. Time will tell.

VeeDubTDI said:

At the end of the day, you really can't compare a pre-2009 TDI to a post-2009 TDI.

Click to expand...

Yep. It is a mystery to me. I guess it goes hand in hand with what I see in electronics: nothing is built to last for an appreciable length of time anymore.

I think the new cars are good. They are more complex, as VeeDub points out, and that means more stuff to fail. To many the ALH was unnecessarily complex and trouble-prone when it was launched: now it's considered the standard for diesel reliability.

A couple friends of mine maintain that the best cars made-ever-were built in the 90s. Companies had figured out how to meet safety and emissions standards, they were focused on quality, and many more cars were over-built regardless of cost. The best Mercedes, Toyotas, and BMWs were built in the 90s. And since they were designed and launched in that decade, I'd include MKIV TDIs. Soft-touch plastics notwithstanding (and mine don't look too bad), my MKIV is tighter and feels stronger than my MKVI, despite having more than 10x the miles on it. And whatever goes wrong with it can be fixed at a reasonable cost.

People here are bragging that their MKVII cars are costing what their IVs did over a decade ago. That kind of cost-cutting isn't without consequence. Shorter life may be one.

That is, in part, why I just bought another MKIV. It may replace my MKVI.

DPM said:

300k on a PD cam? That'd be rare too.

Click to expand...

Not in these parts it isn't.

Mine went 280k and had very minor pitting.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I think the new cars are good. They are more complex, as VeeDub points out, and that means more stuff to fail. To many the ALH was unnecessarily complex and trouble-prone when it was launched: now it's considered the standard for diesel reliability.

A couple friends of mine maintain that the best cars made-ever-were built in the 90s. Companies had figured out how to meet safety and emissions standards, they were focused on quality, and many more cars were over-built regardless of cost. The best Mercedes, Toyotas, and BMWs were built in the 90s. And since they were designed and launched in that decade, I'd include MKIV TDIs. Soft-touch plastics notwithstanding (and mine don't look too bad), my MKIV is tighter and feels stronger than my MKVI, despite having more than 10x the miles on it. And whatever goes wrong with it can be fixed at a reasonable cost.

People here are bragging that their MKVII cars are costing what their IVs did over a decade ago. That kind of cost-cutting isn't without consequence. Shorter life may be one.

That is, in part, why I just bought another MKIV. It may replace my MKVI.

Click to expand...

The early Mk IVs certainly had their share of problems: MAFs, relay 109, coolant migration along the main wiring harness, short timing belt life (only 60k km on automatics, 90 on manuals), and one we tend to forget, the EGR (where have I heard that acronym before...) causing the intake to coke up requiring an expensive tear-down and clean (well, expensive if you're not the DIY type).

I dare say that in terms of running costs/consumables, a CR is probably cheaper. Longer service intervals, timing belt lasts more than twice as long, coking not an issue (but IC condensation is... much simpler to deal with preventively by draining the hose from time to time).

But there's more stuff to break, the HPFP is a big ??? especially in Canada which doesn't cover them out of warranty, DPF, and that acronym again, causing the IC issue: EGR. The last two are easy to deal with when they fail, if one isn't concerned about legal technicalities. As a cyclist I don't condone it, I can really tell when a car with poor emissions passes me on the road. Others may feel differently, you do the deed, you assume the risks.

Mechanically, other than the HPFP, the engine and transmission (at least manual) seems solid. The rest of the car... it's a VW. In my climate, the body usually goes first.

Coal Roller said:

The fact that every gas engine that the US auto makers produce now has VVT. I know it's supposed to give better mileage by keeping the engine "on the cam" through its full rpm range. But that's just MORE stuff to go "south" IMO. A friend had the cam phasers and oil solenoids go on his Ford F-150. This is why I went DIESEL. Also glad I bought a left over 2014. No "blue" to have to deal with. So I don't get an extra 10 horses. I can live without it.

Click to expand...

This post made me smile. A CJAA TDI is so much more complex than a normally aspirated F150 there's almost no comparison. And Adblue makes TDIs drive better and get better FE. It's dirt cheap to buy and you only have to add it at oil change time, sometimes not even then.

The standard engine in the F150 is a 24 valve, 4 cam, double VVT, twin path intake V6. I'd hardly call it "simple".

However its exhaust system, with "only" 3 catalysts and 4 lambda sensors, is probably simpler than a CR TDI.

Oh, and they are ALL bolted to a manditory 6sp automatic now. No more manual gearboxes in Ford trucks. Booo....

LOL @ Jasper.... now THAT is a complete waste of time. BTDT, several times.

Ford has updated cam control bits for the 3 valve Triton engines. It is not that big of a deal to update. Biggest problem is their appetite for eating the 5w20 oil, and the owner's incompetence for using these little devices called dipsticks.

oilhammer said:

the owner's incompetence for using these little devices called dipsticks.

Click to expand...

If you can't use one, you is one...