NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

amy1000 · Feb 25, 2014

taser said:
Hopefully I'm not screwed. I just bought a 2010 Sportwagen TDI. This will be jetta Tdi number 3. 2 previous 2000 alh. I love that engine and did all work myself. Number 2 is going strong at 240k. I know how to care for a diesel.

Bought a 2010 to be the new family car. Drove it from CA to albuquerque no issues. Stalled in a left turn of traffic would not restart. Towed it home, pulled the filter and found the dreaded metal flakes. Car has 140k on it. Stall was 5 secs aft glow plug light illuminated and check engine illuminated. Cel code was fuel pressure low p087.

Where do I go from here? Will VW cover this or should I see if my insurance will? I read that usaa had covered a previous failure. Is there any way to convert to an alh setup? What about a 4bt injection pump. I'm not a fan of this cr setup. Please help, baby is on the way and the car is dead

I feel your pain. My pumped failed at 58000 on my 2010 and I had to jump through hoops with VoA to get the entire fuel system replaced. First they would only replace only the pump. It failed, took it back, replaced the rail. Then it failed on them. Finally they replaced the entire fuel system.
On the other hand, my neighbors mother, with exact same vehicle..failed at 130000 miles. Replaced entire fuel system...no hoops, no questions. She is in New Jersey. Good luck.

amy1000 · Feb 25, 2014

If you do not get anywhere with a customer care rep (aka customer care less rep) ask for supervisor. If no help, ask for supervisor of the supervisor. Go up the food chain. I wish I had done that at the onset...I believe my car would have been fixed correctly. My car was in the shop for 45 days over three months. Also write to the president of VofA to complain.

kjclow · Feb 25, 2014

taser said:
Bought it private party. I have never had a problem with VW reliability. I'm on the fence whether or not to keep it even if the insurance pays for the repairs. If it is totaled I'm considering buying it back and trying to convert it to an alh

Check you state regulations. I know in NC, that if I wanted to convert my gas pickup to a diesel, the motor can be no older than the car it's going into.

taser · Feb 25, 2014

Dealership mechanic pulled filter today. Asked where I filled up last (surprise). He found metal shavings (as expected) and contaminated fuel. Thankfully we had just put comprehensive insurance on the vehicle so that should cover it.

I'm still not that happy about owning a car that will crap itself with anything but the best fuel. So much for ideas of biodiesel.

They should have stuck with the alh

wilcharl · Feb 25, 2014

Before you go too far down the road of insurance, I would continue to push VWoA . Nine times out of ten they have paid for repairs even well beyond the warranty and even when there is an admission of mis-fuel. Its going to take a few phonecalls to customer care but its almost as if they have a secret lifetime guarantee on the fuel system.

tadawson · Feb 25, 2014

taser said:
Dealership mechanic pulled filter today. Asked where I filled up last (surprise). He found metal shavings (as expected) and contaminated fuel. Thankfully we had just put comprehensive insurance on the vehicle so that should cover it.

I'm still not that happy about owning a car that will crap itself with anything but the best fuel. So much for ideas of biodiesel.

They should have stuck with the alh

Best fuel? If you have gasoline contamination, it's not a fuel quality issue - it's just plain the wrong stuff! Compare it to accidentally drinking methanol and going blind - they are both alchohol, so why couldn't you tolerate it? Same thing in principle!

So, best, mediocre, whatever . . . As long as it's actually *DIESEL*, things should be OK.

- Tim

taser · Feb 25, 2014

It was diesel. I've driven diesels my whole life. I work on my own. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but engineer by trade, the pump failures speak for themselves. I do fault myself for not researching the car more, I made bad assumptions based of my happiness with my 2000 jetta Tdi

ticketed2much · Feb 26, 2014

taser said:
Dealership mechanic pulled filter today. Asked where I filled up last (surprise). He found metal shavings (as expected) and contaminated fuel. Thankfully we had just put comprehensive insurance on the vehicle so that should cover it.
I'm still not that happy about owning a car that will crap itself with anything but the best fuel. So much for ideas of biodiesel.
They should have stuck with the alh

Actually biodiesel has great lubricity and would help the pump. Push VW and they will fix it.

tadawson · Feb 26, 2014

taser said:
It was diesel. I've driven diesels my whole life. I work on my own. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but engineer by trade, the pump failures speak for themselves. I do fault myself for not researching the car more, I made bad assumptions based of my happiness with my 2000 jetta Tdi

If it was contaminated (your word . . . ) then it was *NOT* 100% diesel, plain and simple!
I too am an engineer, and the two definitions are incompatible, in that 'contaminated' implies some percentage of a foreign substance . . .

Or is this just very poor wording, and the 'contamination' you refer to is metal swarf in the fuel system?

- Tim

tomo366 · Feb 26, 2014

Agree with others here......Keep pushing back....Make VW fix the problem I doubt seriously if the Diesel you purchased was bad!!
Plain and simple the Pumps fail low % but some fail!! That was why I always used a Lubricity additive and sold the car after it got to 60,000 (sorry now that I sold it though)

kjclow · Feb 26, 2014

taser said:
It was diesel. I've driven diesels my whole life. I work on my own. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but engineer by trade, the pump failures speak for themselves. I do fault myself for not researching the car more, I made bad assumptions based of my happiness with my 2000 jetta Tdi

I would also contact the last place you filled at. If the fuel is contaminated, then they probably have (had) a whole tank full and should get more than just you complaining. This also gives you someone else to pay for the damage if VW doesn't cover it.

roostre · Feb 26, 2014

taser said:
Dealership mechanic pulled filter today. Asked where I filled up last (surprise). He found metal shavings (as expected) and contaminated fuel. Thankfully we had just put comprehensive insurance on the vehicle so that should cover it ......

I would ask the VW dealer for something in writing that says there was "contaminated fuel" and that caused the failure in case you need to use your comprehensive insurance to pay for this expensive repair.

JBell · Feb 26, 2014

taser said:
Dealership mechanic pulled filter today. Asked where I filled up last (surprise). He found metal shavings (as expected) and contaminated fuel. Thankfully we had just put comprehensive insurance on the vehicle so that should cover it.
I'm still not that happy about owning a car that will crap itself with anything but the best fuel. So much for ideas of biodiesel.
They should have stuck with the alh

I'm curious as to how they determined the fuel was contaminated right there on the spot? Or am I missing something?

taser · Feb 26, 2014

I too was surprised with the 30 minute response of contaminated fuel based on the metal shavings. VW supervisor did call back today and they are also working with the dealership now, but no word what that means. Insurance adjuster reviewed the technician's findings today and will give them a stop order or green light on the repairs tomorrow. I will post an update with that.

Thank you all for the support

wilcharl · Feb 27, 2014

I am betting money that VW will own the mistake and take full responsibility for all the repairs

amy1000 · Mar 12, 2014

Anyone following the GM defect? Here's a bit: At issue is why GM waited until February to recall 1.6 million older-model compact cars worldwide, even though it admitted knowing about the problem for a decade. The faulty ignition switches have been linked to 31 crashes and 13 deaths. Committees in the House and Senate also want to know why the government’s road safety watchdog, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, didn’t take action sooner.

Hmmmm...while no deaths now attributed to HPFP defect, in a couple of years will we be seeing this article again with VofA being the one being questioned (along with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration)...I hope they are following this news story, could be them next!

http://nypost.com/2014/03/11/gm-faces-probe-in-recall-part-blamed-in-13-deaths/

South Coast Guy · Mar 12, 2014

amy1000 said:
Anyone following the GM defect? Here's a bit: At issue is why GM waited until February to recall 1.6 million older-model compact cars worldwide, even though it admitted knowing about the problem for a decade. The faulty ignition switches have been linked to 31 crashes and 13 deaths. Committees in the House and Senate also want to know why the government’s road safety watchdog, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, didn’t take action sooner.

Hmmmm...while no deaths now attributed to HPFP defect, in a couple of years will we be seeing this article again with VofA being the one being questioned (along with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration)...I hope they are following this news story, could be them next!

http://nypost.com/2014/03/11/gm-faces-probe-in-recall-part-blamed-in-13-deaths/

I expect the reason why it took a decade for GM to affirmatively act was just bureaucratic. Perhaps there was no good system for tracking problems and it wasn't identified as serious or systemic? I am not a defender of GM, but sometimes the process just doesn't work right.

kjclow · Mar 12, 2014

From the news report I heard, it sounded like GM was too concerned about keeping their heads above water to "worry" about this issue. As to the serious side of it, as Amy1000 pointed out, there were 13 deaths, all in the US, IIRC.

DubFamily · Mar 12, 2014

Not to trivialize any death; but 13 deaths in a decade for 1.6 million models... That's a .0008% failure rate.

More people than that die from slipping in their tub in a year, let alone a decade.

timwagon · Mar 12, 2014

DubFamily said:
Not to trivialize any death; but 13 deaths in a decade for 1.6 million models... That's a .0008% failure rate.

More people than that die from slipping in their tub in a year, let alone a decade.

That's 13 preventable deaths.

If GM had owned-up to this issue when they first discovered it (law says five days), these deaths would have been prevented, and GM would have had a much smaller recall issue.

I believe that GM's conduct in this matter was criminal, people should go to jail over this cover-up. That will never happen, but covering up a defect that GM knew had caused fatal accidents is criminal.

NHTSA also screwed-up on this one, and we'll have to wait to see what the investigations reveal about what NHTSA did / did not do once reports of accidents and fatalities came in.

One other note, the HPFP engineering analysis (NHTSA ref: EA11003) is now the second oldest active NHTSA investigation. Let's hope this recent publicity over NHTSA foot-dragging has them conclude this investigation one way or another.

tditom · Mar 12, 2014

DubFamily said:
Not to trivialize any death; but 13 deaths in a decade for 1.6 million models... That's a .0008% failure rate.

More people than that die from slipping in their tub in a year, let alone a decade.

You can't just look at failure rate- you also need to look at the impact of said failure. I'd wager your attitude would not be so cavalier if it were your loved ones involved.

timwagon said:
That's 13 preventable deaths.

If GM had owned-up to this issue when they first discovered it (law says five days), these deaths would have been prevented, and GM would have had a much smaller recall issue.

I believe that GM's conduct in this matter was criminal, people should go to jail over this cover-up. That will never happen, but covering up a defect that GM knew had caused fatal accidents is criminal.

NHTSA also screwed-up on this one, and we'll have to wait to see what the investigations reveal about what NHTSA did / did not do once reports of accidents and fatalities came in...

No kidding. GMs behavior is inexcusable IMO. I really hope someone is held accountable. I think big corporations play these games all the time- weighing the risk of occurrence & paying off lawsuits vs the cost of implementing corrective action. It makes me sick when preventable deaths are the result!

GoFaster · Mar 12, 2014

Without diminishing GM's apparent neglect of this particular issue - Safety versus cost (and versus usefulness of the product in question) is, unfortunately, a REALITY.

You can not build a completely risk free machine that serves any useful purpose.

Engineers (good ones) grasp this concept and we often have to wrestle with it. But to put it in terms that a common person can understand ... how would you design a risk-free steak knife? In order to perform its function, it has to have a sharp edge. But that sharp edge carries with it an inherent risk that you may cut yourself when using it. The risk management people come along and demand that the edge be dulled. But now it no longer serves its original intended purpose. How do you deal with this?

It also does not do any good to build a completely safe machine that no one can afford.

tditom · Mar 12, 2014

GoFaster said:
Without diminishing GM's apparent neglect of this particular issue - Safety versus cost (and versus usefulness of the product in question) is, unfortunately, a REALITY.

You can not build a completely risk free machine that serves any useful purpose.

Engineers (good ones) grasp this concept and we often have to wrestle with it. But to put it in terms that a common person can understand ... how would you design a risk-free steak knife? In order to perform its function, it has to have a sharp edge. But that sharp edge carries with it an inherent risk that you may cut yourself when using it. The risk management people come along and demand that the edge be dulled. But now it no longer serves its original intended purpose. How do you deal with this?

It also does not do any good to build a completely safe machine that no one can afford.

How is that at all germane to the GM fiasco? Every other automaker has successfully designed their ignition switch to not randomly shut off because it wasn't designed to handle the weight of a common key chain!

By the way- I'm not holding the engineers ultimately responsible. If I understand correctly the engineering team reported the issue back in 2004. Its the higher ups who decided to do nothing about it at GM.

GoFaster · Mar 12, 2014

It's not intended to be germane to the GM fiasco. It's intended to be a direct counterpoint to your statement "I think big corporations play these games all the time- weighing the risk of occurrence & paying off lawsuits vs the cost of implementing corrective action. It makes me sick when preventable deaths are the result!".

I think we should completely end this sidetrack and return to the topic of VW common-rail HPFP troubles.

30_Yr_Dsl_Veteran · Mar 12, 2014

GoFaster said:
It's not intended to be germane to the GM fiasco. It's intended to be a direct counterpoint to your statement "I think big corporations play these games all the time- weighing the risk of occurrence & paying off lawsuits vs the cost of implementing corrective action. It makes me sick when preventable deaths are the result!".

I think we should completely end this sidetrack and return to the topic of VW common-rail HPFP troubles.

Butt is a silly discussion to begin with, since the failure rates are very, very low!

John Kuhn · Mar 12, 2014

One last comment that has relevance to the liability. I thought I read somewhere that most of the issues were with cars that were driven off-road, from Autonews: "However, the automaker told safety regulators it had trouble identifying the exact problem because many of the accidents involved "violent off-road impacts occurring under widely varying circumstances." So the problem might have gotten less attention if the product wasn't being used in the intended fashion. I think the VW issue with HPFP and fuel quality or misfueling is something that is more predictable.

kjclow · Mar 13, 2014

The accidents I hear of were not from off-roading but from running off the road when the driver no longer had control of the vehicle. Since the car had turned itself off, they also had no operating safety devices, such as abs or airbags.

thebigarniedog · Mar 16, 2014

wilcharl said:
I am betting money that VW will own the mistake and take full responsibility for all the repairs

okay that is kindov redundant since you are in fact betting money by owning the current design ........ Right now, VW seems to be playing dump and run ...... in addition to a value edition Jetta they are now offering a $1000 fuel card ...... blow em out before the new tdi arrives in a few months.

It is probably fair to say that the new model will not have these problems and that no fix is available to the current design.

03_01_TDI · Mar 16, 2014

timwagon said:
That's 13 preventable deaths.

If GM had owned-up to this issue when they first discovered it (law says five days), these deaths would have been prevented, and GM would have had a much smaller recall issue.

I believe that GM's conduct in this matter was criminal, people should go to jail over this cover-up. That will never happen, but covering up a defect that GM knew had caused fatal accidents is criminal.

NHTSA also screwed-up on this one, and we'll have to wait to see what the investigations reveal about what NHTSA did / did not do once reports of accidents and fatalities came in.

One other note, the HPFP engineering analysis (NHTSA ref: EA11003) is now the second oldest active NHTSA investigation. Let's hope this recent publicity over NHTSA foot-dragging has them conclude this investigation one way or another.

13 people will die this week and every week from speed related preventable crashes.

kjclow · Mar 16, 2014

03_01_TDI said:
13 people will die this week and every week from speed related preventable crashes.

However, speed is a preventable issue determined by the person behind the wheel.

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Well-known member

Well-known member

Top Post Dawg

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

TDI Lifer, Member #68

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Moderator at Large

Top Post Dawg

Moderator at Large

banned Ric Woodruff alias account and troll

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Master of the Obvious

Banned

Top Post Dawg