ALH TDI engine transplant into '84 Vanagon

jimbote said:

17/22, pd150 injectors and a tune...

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Good info, thanks, that combo is serious power..don't know how close to that I am.
I have ALH with 11mm pump, pp764 and 1749VA on stock tune, I might try the AFN tune but not more.
The syncro westfalia is so heavy too much tune is a heap of EGT trouble.

My research so far points to heavy vehicle/4X4 requiring a healthy safety margin in clutch holding power.

Andy, regarding the rattle noise you are hearing. Have you eliminated the serp. belt dampener as the culprit? I have seen those numerous times rattle.

jjordan11 said:

Andy, regarding the rattle noise you are hearing. Have you eliminated the serp. belt dampener as the culprit? I have seen those numerous times rattle.

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Or a locked up alternator pulley

To answer some of the questions (and some that were not ask):

Clutch
I'm using the Stock Flywheel set-up for the 1.6l diesel. It bolts perfectly to the ALH crankshaft. The ALH TDI engine is stock and no tune! This morning, with ambient at about 30F, I really bared down going up a long up-grade running about 75 MPH at 15 PSI boost..... clutch did not slip. Contrastingly, if the engine and tranny had been up to temperture, the clutch would have slipped under those same circumstances.

Engine rattle
I've not really checked the Alt pulley. However, it seems to be smooth without any bouncing. So, maybe I should check Alt Pulley and the tensioner.


As for the ALH DMF wheel, I have a used one, another Diesel Bellhousing, a 1.6L engine and a diesel starter. So, if that combo will work, it should be fine on the ALH TDI engine. I'll set those up in the next few days to see what's up.

Speedometer
I'm not sure what's going on there. It would seem that if something burned out inside it would have just quit altogether and no intermitten function.ing as described in the prevoius post.

On a side note: back in '08, I started the foundation for a 30' X 54' garage. I'm in the process of getting that project back on track with the goal of putting it under roof this winter. We will be setting up the forms over the next few days to pour the concrete slab(s). I plan to do the radiant heat under the concrete..... circulate hot water. Nothing new, but a very simple system. And, I love AC as you may remember from the pics of my little garage.

I'm getting excited about the new larger garage! I have so many projects I want to do. The little garage was never intended to for service work. It did serve me well for my conversion project though......... no complaints there!

Looking at tranny options

Okay, I'm considering going with a 5-speed transmission. Of course, I will rebuild it from end to end, including upgraded gears. This means my excellent 4-speed, with the taller 3rd and 4th gears, will need to find a new owner.

So, I've placed a "feeler" ad in theSamba.com. The package includes everything from the gear shift knob, shifter, shifter box, linkage to the rear and including the Transmission and mounts. This is the coveted DK with 4.57 ring and pinion 5-rib transmission.

The price is $1,200.00 plus shipping (Firm). The parts from Weddle were over $1,000.00 and I do have the receipts. This was more than just a 3rd and 4th gear upgrade........see the ad or go back to the first pages of this Thread and see it all!

If you have followed this Thread, well, you know I take pride in my work. The tranny is as good as you can get from anywhere in North Amearica! It has over 2,500 proven miles ....... works perfectly. (Sorry professional builders, but I do good work too!)

Here is a link to the "feeler" ad. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1387364 < the link has been deleted!

EDIT: I scraped the idea of going with a 5-speed. Basically a Vanagon 5-speed is no more than a 4-speed with a granny gear. The final drive of a 4-speed is the same!

Bargain!

Great deal on the trans. I hope the 5 speed is worth it.

FWIW - I'm running injectors and tune on my 4 speed with upgraded 3rd and 4th and 215/70-16 tires. The performance is good and RPMs at cruise are good. I see 30 MPG+ all the time and if I could keep it at 60, I'd be closer to 40.

Yes, more gears would be better. Something between 3rd and 4th or 2nd and 3rd would be nice, but I'm not sure how much difference it would really make.

Mark

Interesting about the clutch. I have our camper fully loaded including 15 gallons of water and have 20K miles with out a clutch problem. Even with the sprint 520 nozzles. I am using the stock 1.6 diesel NA clutch. From racing, we found the smaller the disc, the better the clamping force for a given pressure plate and less likely to slip.

Noise, Andy, pop the darn belt off. Takes less than a minute and retest. I was ready to replace the oil pump chain the noise was so loud on cold startup. It was the alternator bearing, but have also replaced the alt pulley, tensioner and AC roller. No power steering on my setup.

I am blown away by other's vanagon MPG quotes. Surface street and highway I see just short of 30. Best has been maybe 36mpg, worse about 25. That is fine with me though.

Auto vs Manual, are you saying by programming the ECU through VCDS as an automatic it is starting better? Are you getting a CEL as a result of this? Got a little confused. mark

My former 1986 Syncro Westfalia Hi-Roof weighed in at 2800kg when we set off camping. I often hauled a trailer with ATVs on it pushing the combined load to close to 3500kg - the ALH TDI engine had a VNT-20 turbo, super sized nozzles and more than adequate programming. It had enough power that I stripped the teeth off of 3rd gear going up a hill at 60km/h hauling my ATVs simply by "putting my foot into it". I was constantly going thru rear CVs so I upgraded to 108mm Porsche units... so in a nut shell LOTS of power!

All I used for a clutch with a 228mm single mass flywheel, 228mm wasserboxer disc and a VR6 pressure plate shimmed out 0.5mm for some extra clamping power.

rsxsr said:

Interesting about the clutch. I have our camper fully loaded including 15 gallons of water and have 20K miles with out a clutch problem. Even with the sprint 520 nozzles. I am using the stock 1.6 diesel NA clutch. From racing, we found the smaller the disc, the better the clamping force for a given pressure plate and less likely to slip.

Noise, Andy, pop the darn belt off. Takes less than a minute and retest. I was ready to replace the oil pump chain the noise was so loud on cold startup. It was the alternator bearing, but have also replaced the alt pulley, tensioner and AC roller. No power steering on my setup.

I am blown away by other's vanagon MPG quotes. Surface street and highway I see just short of 30. Best has been maybe 36mpg, worse about 25. That is fine with me though.

Auto vs Manual, are you saying by programming the ECU through VCDS as an automatic it is starting better? Are you getting a CEL as a result of this? Got a little confused. mark

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My Clutch is a brand new Sachs (plate and disk) on a freshly re-surfaced 1.6l flywheel. The machine shop did also take off material on the outside where the plate bolts on. The engine will boost 15psi (and can spike up to 18 psi).

Yes, programming with VCDS to the ECU from Manual to Auto tranny makes it start immediately when the engine is fully warmed up. If the ambient temp is in the mid-50sF or warmer with cold engine, it still doesn't start good. I can unplug the temp sensor which causes the GPs to immediately glow....bame, it fires up immediately.

The Power Steering pump is there but only circulates fluid.....

Well, as far as the noise in the engine, I'm not driving it right now. I have way too many things going on to get into it right now. Example: I'm pulling two 1.6L engines from two separate cars. One car will be junked. One engine will be going back as a Turbo 1.6 bored 0.010 over (turbo pistons), solid lifters, and will be installed in an '84 Jetta coup (two door) for my son (I want my 2000 Jetta TDI back....). I also plan to install the other 1.6L non-turbo diesel in a 82 Caddy pickup.

Yes, the DTC that pops up is P1620 (IIRC). I have ScanGauge running and just clear the code after each startup!

I plan to get a Tune in January which will eliminate the code issue....as well as a few other thingys. So, by January, I will do the TB job and ferret out the engine noise issue!

Hasenwerk said:

My former 1986 Syncro Westfalia Hi-Roof weighed in at 2800kg when we set off camping. I often hauled a trailer with ATVs on it pushing the combined load to close to 3500kg - the ALH TDI engine had a VNT-20 turbo, super sized nozzles and more than adequate programming. It had enough power that I stripped the teeth off of 3rd gear going up a hill at 60km/h hauling my ATVs simply by "putting my foot into it". I was constantly going thru rear CVs so I upgraded to 108mm Porsche units... so in a nut shell LOTS of power!

All I used for a clutch with a 228mm single mass flywheel, 228mm wasserboxer disc and a VR6 pressure plate shimmed out 0.5mm for some extra clamping power.

Click to expand...

David, I've read where guys have had axle and CV Joint issues running the TDI engine.

So, which flywheel will work in the Diesel Bell Housing using the 1.6L diesel starter? I am using an excellent reman Bosch starter. Also, as I stated prviously, I have a couple of DMF laying around with relatively low miles on them. I'm curious if they would work with the older Vanagon Diesel Starter...

AndyBees said:

David, I've read where guys have had axle and CV Joint issues running the TDI engine.

So, which flywheel will work in the Diesel Bell Housing using the 1.6L diesel starter? I am using an excellent reman Bosch starter. Also, as I stated prviously, I have a couple of DMF laying around with relatively low miles on them. I'm curious if they would work with the older Vanagon Diesel Starter...

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Personally I would not use a dual mass flywheel. Every TDI I have dismantled has a broken DMF. Use the "G60" flywheel - so basically a 228mm single mass flywheel from a MK-III series. It will work with the Vanagon Bell-housing and Diesel Starter / wasserboxer disc and VR6 pressure plate. I have done a few where just a little tiny bit of material had to be removed from the inside of the 091 bell-housing - others didn't.

The other issue you are going to have with a DMF is what disc to use? The O2A and O2J transmissions have a different spline count than the 091 gearbox. With a SMF the 228mm wasserboxer disc can be used. There are different splined input shafts available, but honestly I would not spend the money to make it happen just to use a DMF.

Hasenwerk said:

Personally I would not use a dual mass flywheel. Every TDI I have dismantled has a broken DMF. Use the "G60" flywheel - so basically a 228mm single mass flywheel from a MK-III series. It will work with the Vanagon Bell-housing and Diesel Starter / wasserboxer disc and VR6 pressure plate. I have done a few where just a little tiny bit of material had to be removed from the inside of the 091 bell-housing - others didn't.

The other issue you are going to have with a DMF is what disc to use? The O2A and O2J transmissions have a different spline count than the 091 gearbox. With a SMF the 228mm wasserboxer disc can be used. There are different splined input shafts available, but honestly I would not spend the money to make it happen just to use a DMF.

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Good info!!..thanks for posting up ....I just became a new westy owner and hope to do a few performance mods to the otherwise stock AAZ as it's pretty slugish at the moment

Yes, David that is excellent info about the clutch.

Well, it looks as if I am going to stay with the 4-speed Tranny. Purchasing a 5-speed also requires obtaining the shifter, shifter box and linkage ......which most people doing salvage don't bother to save ......Gees! I've made several requests to 5-speed ads with no repsonses.

Also, with some minor exceptions, the 5-speed is basically the same as the 4-speed from 2nd thru 5th.... with the lower 1st gear. The available upgrades for 5th gear is the same ratios for 4th in the 4-speed. So, assuming the same Ring and Pinion ratio, there would be no change in the final drive ratio ,,,,,,ugh!

So, to all those out there stripping down Vanagons to make a few bucks, don't forget to pull the goodies that make the transmission usable! Duh!

Do you want the 5 speed for mpgs or for a more comparable engine with your ALH?

Transmissions

TomJD said:

Do you want the 5 speed for mpgs or for a more comparable engine with your ALH?

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Tom, the engine spins too fast in 4th gear at 65 mph (about 2850). I probably should have used a .70 4th instead of the .77.

Interestingly, the five speed is pretty much a 4-speed with another 1st gear.

This is the AAP Code tranny with the 4.57 R&P (same as my 4-speed)
5-speed 1st gear ratio is: 4.11............4-speed ratio 3.78
...........2nd gear ratio is: 2.33............4-speed ratio 2.06
............3rd gear ratio is: 1.48............4-speed ratio 1.23....upgrade 1.14
............4th gear ratio is: 1.02............4 speed ratio 0.85....upgrade 0.77
............5th gear ratio is: .085

Just slide the 4-speed ratios up one notch so they match 2nd thru 5th on the 5-speed and that's what it basically looks like. Of course, the 5-speed ratio in 1st thru 3rd are really nice...

Of course, all the above info is in my Vanagon manuals .... I just never gave it a close look until discussing the possibilities with Weddle.

Weddle now offers a .75 and .73 ratios for 4th gear for the Vanagon DK 4-speed which will also work in the AAP 5-speed and maybe others.

Well, two of the three 5-speed trannys I have been inquiring about have sold. The other one is priced way out of reason. Also, I've never heard back from the guy.

So, I'm scrapping the idea of a 5-speed and will probably purchase either a .75 or .73 4th gear for my 4-speed....... And, while the tranny is out will be a good time to upgrade my flywheel and clutch!

Crunching the numbers in Excel it appears that the .73 would probably work just fine, 2700 RPMs at 65 mph.

Lastly, without some serious fabrication, I would need the shifter, shifter box, and linkage for a 5-speed to make it work....... too much hassle!

When I was figuring my gearing, I dealt with Mark Malone and asked him what RPMs I should be turning on the highway. I'm using a stock 1Z turbo and IC, nozzles and a tune that's a little less fuel than Stage 2.

Conventional wisdom on the Vanagon conversion list is 3000 rpm. He disagreed and said as long as I'm above 1900 rpm (the torque peak) I should be OK.

I have the .70 4th and 1.18 3rd and the 215/70/16 wheels and have been fine. Sure, the acceleration was better with 14" wheels but then I was running out of gearing in 1 and 2 really fast.

I want to say that at 3000 rpm I'm going 75 mph. I've driven faster, but things get noisy and hairy so I'm usually going slower. I'll be driving the bus this evening and come edit my post if I've remembered wrong.

fwiw- I've found it feels like it's lugging at 1500 RPM in 3rd or 4th. If I'm 1700+ it seems fine so that's where I like to drive it. YMMV

Mark

I find 1500 RPM is about as low as I want to go in my ALH jetta, so I can imagine it feels worse in the van!

As far as the five speed trans goes, I looked on gowesty. According to their fivespeed trans sale, you can reuse the 4 speed shifter and linkage stuff!! I'm not expert here, I'm mostly dreaming about transmissions and diffs at this point, but have been following your thread and thought i'd point it out.

Here is the link:
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4332

Comments

Today, I drove the Vanagon out to run several errands. On the expressway, I typically drive about 65 mph (*2765 rpm to 2815 rpm yields 65 mph*) which is the sweet spot with repect to engine noise.... pretty nice [up or down 3 or 4 mph]. Anyway, to run with the traffic, I took it up to 70 to 75 mph for about 15 miles ..... ran really great but the noise was far too much!......... oddly, slightly faster than 75 mph the sound did begin to mellow-out. But, 'ell, who wants to drive a Vanagon 80 mph......?

So, as I alluded to in previous posts, I've scrapped the idea of a 5-speed VW tranny. And, I am not interested in doing a flipped Passast (or similar) tranny or paying the big bucks for a reverse cut Ring and Pinion for a Subie 6-speed tranny! I have been crunching the numbers on a later model (post '83.5 year model) Vanagon tranny. There's not much difference in the 4.83 and 4.86 ratio Ring and Pinions. It looks as if I'm sort of stuck with what I have. However, I will leave my options open.

**The ScanGauge RPM and GPS showed that about 2765 RPMs to about 2815 RPMs resulted in 65 mph. I'm guessing there is some rounding of the numbers by the GPS. Using my tranny gear ratio spreadsheet, I get 64.994 mph using 2775 RPM...... with 215/75/15 tires (728 revolutions per mile). So, I believe both sytems (GPS/ScanGauge and Excel Spreadsheet) pretty much agree.

Well, from here on, I plan to address the "bugs" that I have encountered since putting this machine on the road.
1. Speedometer is intermitten....... the Digital Dakota indicates a signal (culprit may be inside the cluster)
2. Starting issue (hopefully a tune will take care of this)
3. Sound deadening with Dynamat
4. Flywheel/Clutch upgrade ....... easy to slip in 3rd and 4th, especially with a load
6. Rear torison bar install (positive comments over in theSamba.com)
7. Install a "puller" InterCooler fan (I don't like the pusher/blower set-up)
8. Solve the "sticky" brake pedal ... seems to hang, thus throws a flashing GP light occasionally
9. ............ dang, Body work, including a paint job!

I really like my Wheels (VanCafe) and Tires (Uniroyals).

Mark and kuleinc, thanks for your comments and input! ..... I do read all the comments!

Tune it! Don't look back. It is absolutely THE best bang for your buck. Any tuner would be proud to lay his name on such a fine TDI

The 4.14 ring and pinion with the .77 was the best bang for the buck. Andy, I remember those early days. I was so glad to have the van running, I was willing to look past the resonance/noise. The more trips we took, the more it nagged me. After lots of changes since, the van is as quiet as a new car now. Well at least up front.

I have been thinking about you adapting the ECU to automatic and why that might have solved the starting problem. Here is how far my mind has wandered.

The Automatics of that era should have had an 11mm pump with smaller nozzles vs the standard shift with the 10mm pump and the larger nozzles. Basically, you are telling the ECU by changing the adaption that the engine has a larger pump and smaller nozzles. So the answer to your problem maybe, why did VW use a different pump and nozzles on the automatic vs standard and how does that fit into the problem you have? I think you are disgusing the problem by reprograming the ECU. Hey a fix is a fix though. mark

For vibrations, noise the following helped for me:

1. I'm using a hydraulic engine mount.
2. I have part of my exhaust system hanging with a rubber isolator. This made a noticeable difference.
3. Using a muffler ;-) (I tried with just using the Cat but the muffler did help)
4. By design, I'm not using a transmission mount where the engine meets the transaxle. The stock 78 bus had a mount there, Vanagons don't. If I did have that almost solid mount there, I know I'd be feeling more vibrations.

The resonance, as I've state previously, is mostly in roughly the 45 mph to 55 mph range (slower and/or faster, depending on the grade). The sweet spot is about 63 to 68 mph.

I did use hydraulic mounts for a Saab or Volvo (cannot remember for sure).

The exhaust is mounted to the engine, nothing attached to the body. The engine has both the CAT and a short glass pack.

The front tranny mount appeared to be new.

I think some of the noise is coming from the Intake System... seems I mentioned this previously. A diesel engine does make a lot of noise via the Intake Manifold. High RPMs, while coasting in gear, yeilds a considerable amount of roar.

Well, at the present, I do not have time to address anything. However, I really need to work in some time to change the TB and inspect the cam to see where that rattle is coming from. Also, the clutch is pretty much gone, especially in 4th gear.....

Right now, I'm working on my larger garage.... pouring half the concrete slab/floor tomorrow! Hope to do the other half next week (rough size: 30' X 54').

Update showing use of Conversion project

Almost every weekend, we take the grandchildren (Emma 6 and Eli 4) on a hike. In our neck of the woods we are blessed with lots of trails in the Daniel Boone National Forest, Big South Fork National Park and Recreation Area as well as several state parks in Kentucky and nearby Tennessee.

Anyway, both Emma and Eli checked on my Vanagon Conversion project almost daily as I worked on it. Now that I have the Van back on the road they had rather I take them out on hikes in it than the Chevy Blazer.

So, here are a few pics of the Vanagon and the grandchildren...... (Comments at top of pics)

Vanagon sitting in parking lot of Cumberland Gap Pinnacle Overlook (Southeast Kentucky) in early November, 2012


Big Turtle [Sheltowee](name given to Daniel Boone by the Indians). The Big Turtle symbol marks the 282 mile long Sheltowee Trace that starts in Pickett State Park, Tennessee and ends in Northern Kentucky........ we've section hiked almost all of the southern part in McCreary County Kentucky and Pickett County Tennessee ....... out in the Vanagon.


Emma and Eli on a "spur" trail off Sheltowee Trace near Yahoo Falls (tallest falls in Kentucky at 118 feet)


Eli, Emma, Scuff and AndyBees at his 62nd birthday (11/11/12). After cake and ice cream, we went for a ride in the Vanagon to a favorite trail for a short hike.


This is a pic looking over the small lake at Pickett State Park in Pickett County Tennessee. The foot bridge leads to a trailhead that loops around the lake for over a mile. There are several longer trails that loop off the main trail........ the Vanagon performed well on this 1.5 hour trip over to the park. Pickett State Park was built by the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) during the Great Depression. It is on the head waters of an awesome trout stream (Rock Creek) that runs northeast about six miles into Kentucky and from there another 18 miles to discharge into the Big South Fork of the Cumberland River.








The new 15 inch wheels (Made in Germany) from Van Cafe with the 15/75/215 Uniroyal Larado's have made a positive difference with handling.





Moderators, if these pics are not consistant with policy, please send me a PM.

I hope to do an Album showing the progress of my long awaited garage. We did get half of the concrete slab poured this past Friday (11/30/12).

Great album, Andy! So cool to see the reason for the conversion. I really must travel to TN some time. My mom and her family come from outside Oak Ridge. Grandpa Seldon worked at ORNL for 30 years. Did you actually fit 62 candles in that cake?

62 candles

nicklockard said:

Great album, Andy! So cool to see the reason for the conversion. I really must travel to TN some time. My mom and her family come from outside Oak Ridge. Grandpa Seldon worked at ORNL for 30 years. Did you actually fit 62 candles in that cake?

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Yeah, my wife and daughter-in-law did that one for me........German Chocolate. That makes 42 of those my wife has baked for me!

After I blew them out ....... they had to be re-lit for the grand children to blow them out too!

Hi all....this might be too simple a question for this part of the forum, but I have a quick question about tire pressure maintenance on my '86 Westy TDI as I'm trying to see if this will help improve my fuel consumption.

I'm running my rig on 16" Michielan LTX tire (215/70/R16). I'm just wondering if I should maintain pressure as per the manufacture recommendation for the stock 185 R 14s (Front 39 PSI, Rear 48 PSI) or do I inflate my tires to the max pressure for each tire (35 PSI)?

Usually for the best economy, run the pressure high.
Most of the time 90% of max rated on the sidewall.

If I'm not mistaken, I'm running 36 psi in the rear and 34 psi the front. The ride seems okay.

I have considered replacing the gas shocks with OE oil hydraulic. Seems the gas shocks are a little harsh. Thoughts, suggestions....anyone?

Broken engine mount bracket bolt, and garage pics

This afternoon, I was checking the engine over before we headed out on another Sunday afternoon hike ....

Wow! I found that one of the three bolts that secures the right engine mounting bracket to the block was broke. The head of the bolt apparently snapped off sometime recently.

In the pic below (from files), you can see two of the three bolts that secure the bracket to the block. The third bolt is off to the left and not visible. The bolt that broke is the one next to the oil cooler.


Well, I've not really been satisified with this engine mount bracket from day one (my design). So, this is something I need to address right way. However, I am deeply involved with my new garage construction project at the moment.

Here are a few pics of the garage project starting with the concrete slab.

This is a shot (below) from the north end looking south at what will be the back of the garage to the right. That's an MK1 ('84, 1.6 diesel) there behind the barn. In this pic you can see the old barn that the garage will be attached to. Notice the "concrete form" has a 4" offset on top of the block foundation. That 4" lip will be used for styro-foam metal panels (from an old Walmart distribution center drive-in freezer). The panels are supposed to be R-40. (I plan to use traditional frame construction inside.).


The pic below is about the same angle as above and shows the plastic underlayment and 3/8" rebar installed on about 1/3 of the first 15'X54' slab (installed 2 controlled breaks, 19'-16'-19' Yeah, that's a wrecked '01 Jetta TDI sitting there in the background! T-boned a Ford Explorer....


In this pic, you can see my crew working with the cement. Due to late delivery, we worked with the concrete until 11:30 pm... it turned out rather slick and smooth. As indicated above, this is only half of the garage slab. Also, you can see that the blocks for the foundation have been layed for quite some time (summer-fall of '08). To be on the safe side, we drilled the foundation and drove in rebar then poured each chamber with cement....... walls should be secure.


Well, these last three pics are sort of off subject... but, I am excited to get my TDI VW hang-out back on track and hope to get it under roof before winter is over!

Did you put any rigid insulation under the slab or PEX tubing for heat in the concrete?