Hypermiling...anyone tried it?

Dunhamjr said:

as for it being dangerous. that is your opinion. i have done it with no issues, no accidents, no close calls.

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LMAO!!! Wow - you're right! It IS safe!



With that youthfully naive perspective, I guess you must spend most of your time at the 'tex...

DRIVING IS DANGEROUS. You are NOT in absolute control. Get over yourselves.

rotarykid said:

That 30 % number figures in time between shifts and coasting to lights , ect......... . Every time you shift you spend some time @ minimum throttle in "N" .




I only use the kill option when the engine is cold before the turbo gets hot . Also it is VERY!!!! important to make sure the turbo has spooled back down before you cut it's oil supply by killing the engine . And to see the most gains try not to use the starter to restart the engine as the battery drain can hurt mpgs . When I do this I just put in the highest gear I can above 30 mph 5th is fine and gently bump the engine back to life .



FIrst I'm from the era when we didn't have all that fancy stuff . I preferred my old stuff without PS and am just fine driving an old car without PB . Drove cars like this for hundreds of thousands of miles over the years . Our rack & pinion steering systems need very little assist and only when the car is completely stopped or close to it do get any measurable amount .


I'm betting all the people crying about this are too young to have ever driven cars & trucks like this , I'm not .

And having or not having the engine on will not effect the operation of these systems . Our cars are designed they have to be , to still give control whether the engine is running or not . And in places where what you speak of could happen I already take extra care . DO YOU ??




I don't do these things on high speed freeways & highways , in the western US 2 lane roads are 65-75 mph posted just like interstates . I only go for max mpgs in city traffic @ lower speeds 30-50 mph posted where I feel like I'm not interfering with anyone else . On the highway it's 70-80 mph all day long , I don't really feel safe doing this kind of stuff interfering with everyone else on the freeway . Trying this kind of stuff in traffic normally cruising along @ 80 mph is stupid , inconsiderate and just asking to die .

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As for doing all those other things at low speeds, just as long as it doesn't affect/effect anyone else, to each their own. My take is it a harmless way to occupy one's ADD. In addition, I would rather share the road with someone who is at least halfway paying attention and is "in the game" so to speak.

Actually your last quote (highways) mirrors my response/reaction to our past discussions on the matter. So I am glad you agree with me. At the speeds you describe, my mpg are more like 55-59. So for me, I am ok with 48-50 mpg!

fitzski *** do those pictures have to do with the price of @#$% ????

How do know any of those were driving without the engine on , oh yeah you don't .......................

Your pretty arrogant with your statements ........... Drive as you wish ...

The person that thinks they know everything knows nothing , I read that on a fortune cookie

Have a nice day

rotarykid said:

fitzski *** do those pictures have to do with the price of @#$% ????

How do know any of those were driving without the engine on , oh yeah you don't .......................

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Never tried to imply that... the point is that accidents happen to the best of people (drivers) in the best of circumstances. Turning off your engine increases your risk factor - I really don't see how that's negotiable. Sorry...

rotarykid said:

Your pretty arrogant with your statements ........... Drive as you wish ...

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? Just because we're at opposite ends with our opinions doesn't make your own statements any less arrogant... You believe its perfectly safe. I believe it puts you, and those around you, at increased risk.

Getting away with it for 30 years or just the one time you tried it on a public road doesn't make it "safe", and it's arrogant to think otherwise, IMO. Nobody is invincible - where's the arrogance in that view?

rotarykid said:

The person that thinks they know everything knows nothing , I read that on a fortune cookie

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Not sure what that has to do with the price of @#$% - maybe that was directed at Dunhamjr? It seems to me that the person who believes that nothing unforeseen could happen while they practice EOC is the one who thinks they know everything.

rotarykid said:

Have a nice day

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Back at you...

... and back on topic... sorry.

not that nothing unforeseen can or will happen , I count on that fact . If I do this which I only do @ very low speeds on multi lane city streets paying really close attention to everything .

I'm at the speed limit , usually the only one so I'm acting in a way that is very cautious when I do this . And as I said where I do this there is no difference in braking and steering . On the steering there isn't enough room around to turn into a zone where you might notice even the slightest difference in steering . Any turn of that range would wreck you anyway in the conditions I do this . And the brakes work just as they do when the engine is running if I use them a couple of times I just restart the engine and the vacuum is at full again before I can get my foot back on the brake peddle .

You are turning what I do very rarely into something it isn't . That is why I have come back at your not informed when you're making blanket statements about my driving . If I was in a situation where I thought it isn't the best idea I don't do it . That is where my 30 years of driving experience in 6 different countries right & left hand drive comes in .

I know I can't convince you of anything when it comes to this but I believe you need to reconsider your blanket statement of this all being bad , it isn't .

Again peace................

I use a couple of Hypermiling techniques, Driving without brakes, this is a really big fuel saver, it isn't literally driving without brake just driving as if your brakes don't work. I have also just started killing the engine at long lights.

RK

I wasn't knocking your driving style, only pointing out "what if" scenarios that no one ever plans on. Since you're doing this in a more urban setting, I substitue the deer for a clueless pedestrian!

rotarykid said:

I'm betting all the people crying about this are too young to have ever driven cars & trucks like this , I'm not .

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As for cars without PS, I've owned and driven 'em. Heck, it doesn't seem that long ago you could order a car without it.

Bayou_Flyer said:

RK

I wasn't knocking your driving style, only pointing out "what if" scenarios that no one ever plans on. Since you're doing this in a more urban setting, I substitute the deer for a clueless pedestrian!




As for cars without PS, I've owned and driven 'em. Heck, it doesn't seem that long ago you could order a car without it.

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Pedestrian know to stay the h3ll out of the road out here in the western US and in the Southern US where I have to drive regularly . Nobody seems to walk anywhere in either place .

Bicycles are are the moving targets in the west . For some reason they love to ride up these bloody steep mountains in the middle of the road in Colorado so you have time to plan the encounter before you reach them .

I just started using some hypermiling techniques with my 2005 Jetta. My tires are at 37psi, and the car is stock

I do the following:
- I coast to lights and coast down hills
- do some pulse and glide.
- drive slower (60 vs 65 on highway).

I never turn off the engine while driving.

I normally get about 45 MPG in the Summer, 60% highway driving 12 miles to work and some local trips per week (1-2 miles each trip).

On my first tank I was able to get 50 MPG.

My second tank was very unusual because it was 85% highway, going to Baltimore and to the NJ Shore 2x (2 different weekends).
The back roads to the Shore are great for pulse and glide. I was able to increase my MPG to 56.74.

Considering my increased MPG, I will never stop hypermiling.

Bayou_Flyer said:

As for cars without PS, I've owned and driven 'em. Heck, it doesn't seem that long ago you could order a car without it.

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Speaking of Power Steering I just noticed something on the MkV Jetta, when you kill the engine, the electronic power steering continues to function until you are rolling less than 5 MPH.

fitzski said:

LMAO!!! Wow - you're right! It IS safe!



With that youthfully naive perspective, I guess you must spend most of your time at the 'tex...

DRIVING IS DANGEROUS. You are NOT in absolute control. Get over yourselves.

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let me guess. ALL those accidents were caused by hypermiling? no? guess its not any LESS safe then actually driving. get over YOURself.

i have been hypermiling daily for the last 6 months and have been doing it on and off for 10 yrs. not once have i been in an accident or had a close call because of my hypermiling efforts.

as you say. driving is dangerous... but that doesnt mean that hypermiling makes it more dangerous.

As long as you're not hypermiling on the autobahn, it's probably not putting anyone in more than normal danger.

Only way I could see a problem would be going below the speed limit on a 1-lane each way road, that requires everyone pass you in the oncoming lane.

Turning off your motor while still moving under any condition is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable...I'm sorry, I don't care how good you think you are, or how long you have been around.

We should have a test. Lets get a few different model cars together at a track, or large un used parking lot and we will do a couple of fast reaction senario tests at various speeds including Highway, and I promise you the cars that are running will perform the test better than the ones that aren't. PERIOD. Even the cars with NO PS & PB, because some manuvers require power to be applied(Like a skid).

The cars equiped with PS, and PB would be affected even more. PERIOD.

RK, You said, "I am perfectly happy driving a vehicle without any assist", I'm glad!! If its such a bad thing and only lazy people need it, why do race cars have PS & PB now? Maybe because you can drive faster and stop quicker with it???

PB is what allows ABS, and no ammount of pedal modulation that you can do with your foot, will do what the ABS system can do. ABS will stop working unless the vacuum pump is electric, after very few modulations, and are you going to remember to start your motor back up while doing a panic stop?

I drive a 5Spd, and enjoy driving a 5Spd, but don't be in the illusion that it gives you more "control" over your vehicle. While it may give you the control over what gear the trans is in, it gives you less control over your vehicle. Why you ask? Because both hands are not on the wheel. I don't care how fast you shift, you still have your hands off the wheel, Auto's allow you to keep both hands on the wheel while still being able to stop and go, by just using your feet.

Again, going back to the tests I mentioned above, the exact same car, with an auto, will come out slightly ahead, because of the ability to use both hands. So unless you have a paddle shifters, like the majority of the newer high end sports cars, you have LESS control of your vehicle, because you HAVE to take your hand off the wheel to change gears.

My 2 Cents!!!

rotarykid said:

I only use the kill option when the engine is cold before the turbo gets hot . Also it is VERY!!!! important to make sure the turbo has spooled back down before you cut it's oil supply by killing the engine.

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I think this warrants further consideration. I think (could be wrong, so please speak up) that it's not only a good idea to let the turbo spool down, but you also need some time at the engine speed below where the turbo spools up (ie, idle or slightly above) to allow the engine oil enough time to flow through the turbo and cool it effectively. I've been told by my local TDI guru that you don't just want to shut the engine off, let it idle for a few seconds or so to cool the turbo, and this was also confirmed by my Dodge mechanic for my CTD.

So, in theory (in addition to the other safety/PS/PB concerns,) if you're shutting the engine off in traffic to save a few pennies on diesel, you could be causing a premature death to your expensive turbo unit, which will most certainly not be made up by the few pennies you saved on diesel.

(Dons his flame-retardant suit as he hits "Submit Reply")

bakdoor said:

I think this warrants further consideration. I think (could be wrong, so please speak up) that it's not only a good idea to let the turbo spool down, but you also need some time at the engine speed below where the turbo spools up (ie, idle or slightly above) to allow the engine oil enough time to flow through the turbo and cool it effectively. I've been told by my local TDI guru that you don't just want to shut the engine off, let it idle for a few seconds or so to cool the turbo, and this was also confirmed by my Dodge mechanic for my CTD.

So, in theory (in addition to the other safety/PS/PB concerns,) if you're shutting the engine off in traffic to save a few pennies on diesel, you could be causing a premature death to your expensive turbo unit, which will most certainly not be made up by the few pennies you saved on diesel.

(Dons his flame-retardant suit as he hits "Submit Reply")

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Whoah, somebody else disagreed with one of the all knowing veterans!!!

I Agree, and I believe somebody else also said it, turning off your car while the turbo is hot with no oil flow, then starting it back up and accelerating is VERY, VERY bad for the turbo. Ask ANY diesel mechanic, not just VW, and they will tell you the same thing.

I'm covered in Nomex, and the extinguishers are charged...so bring it on...

hitman said:

I read an article in the Birmingham news the other day about it. The thought of pushing your car out of the driveway is a little to hardcore/extreme for me. If you try hypermiling, let us know about your progress.

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Yeah, I saw that article too... I don't plan to be pushing my Jetta out of the driveway anytime soon.

I'm not sure about some of the techniques... what is pulse and glide? Doesn't sound very efficient--seems like it would be more efficient to keep a steady speed.

I have tried to analyze the effect of coasting down hills, and I think there is only a certain range of grade where it would be better mpg to shift into neutral vs staying in gear, probably not worth the trouble to me, plus I think it is a strange driving habit to not be in gear, just like not shifting down when stopping, but I will confess it is a hard point to argue so probably just my opinion.

I think it is not good for the engine, for a variety of reasons, to be starting and stopping a lot--besides issues with the turbo, starting an engine is fairly rough: less optimum lubrication, more heating/cooling cycles, starter wear, and just the jolt of getting going from a stop, etc. I'm sure these things are minimized on any modern engine, but not eliminated. Maybe virtually eliminated on a Prius or a golf cart, but not our TDIs, or any diesel. I believe this is a main reason there is no available diesel hybrid. Think of it this way... lots of things go wrong on our cars; do you think they would go wrong if the car just sat there at medium rpm at medium load for thousands of hours straight, like a tractor or generator? My point is it's the non-steady-state events (made up technical term) that cause things to wear and/or break in any well designed machine, and starting and stopping are probably the most extreme case of this. We all know cold starts are hard on an engine, well, hot starts are a lot better, but still rough. The actual degree of roughness is all that I believe is debatable, but maybe it's not enough to really matter. And of course maybe it's worth it to save gas, who knows?

I don't think it's unsafe to shut your car off. If it takes more effort to turn or stop then expend some more effort. Yes, it's surprising sometimes when the brakes don't work like you expect. Get used to surprises! It will sound like just my opinion but I truly believe that just learning to pay attention and be careful will go way further toward keeping everyone healthy than a bunch of stupid safety devices and laws which train people to rely on them and never get any good at driving. How hard should it be to just drive around and not run into anything?

In Germany you easily get people in the fast lane going twice as fast as people in the slow lane. This is not "safe", but you can bet people in the slow lane don't get in the fast lane without a bit of care, and the people in the fast lane are watching like a hawk for someone to be stupid. The point is: watch out for people who can't stop as fast as you.

Someone driving a beater with brakes that operate poorly on one of four bald tires, on ice, and steering that only keeps it between the lines with difficulty, can easily be a safer driver than someone with a new car with headlight wipers and run-flat tires... it's not about the power brakes, it's about knowing how your brakes work, and driving accordingly.

If you say, "A is safer than B, therefore A is right and B is wrong/illegal/stupid/dangerous/irresponsible/etc." then in a way you are right but maybe you should go start your own country on an island somewhere, maybe you can make a utopia. Please leave me out of it. I can understand how people get to thinking this way if someone they know and love gets injured or killed, but just because there is an error in one direction doesn't mean there isn't an error in the opposite direction--if people don't apply some sense to their safety rules, then they are "too safe". Which is what the argument really comes down to: is it possible to be too safe? Some people think so and some people don't. The "safe nuts" (lacking a better term) have an advantage though because people get killed, and the other side finds it hard to argue with that. To me it's a form of brain washing. Kids grow up not knowing that there was a time not too long ago when seat belts and helmets and gloves were completely voluntary, and everyone learned and decided themselves what was safe and what wasn't.

Thanks for reading, I think there was something relevant toward the beginning I think the safety aspect is interesting and worthy of intelligent analysis, but it is rather complicated.

I am not disagreeing with you that being an attentive driver, is not good...

BUT, an attentive driver in a modern car with PS, PB, ABS, Traction Control, and Yaw Control, will be even safer, and more likely to get out of an accident. PERIOD, that is FACT, it is not up for argument...

I do not like getting told by my government that I have to use my seatbelt, or I have to wear a helmet. I would like the choice. Would I still, probably.

99.9%(Made up %, but you get the idea) of the world cannot drive a car around a racetrack that is equiped with the technology above faster with it disabled. PERIOD. I have seen prfessionals try it. They failed.

Bottom line the Technology works. It is proven. More to come with numbers later once I get home.

Like RotaryKid said, I think we agree to disagree... Nothing new, it's a forum after all. No worries, you are right that it's good to be safer.

Now back to the argument

LokiWolf it sounds like you are saying that it is irresponsible and unnacceptable to drive a car without all that extra crap that makes it safer.

Fitzski, you can't talk about safety if you've wrecked 5 VWs!!! I don't really care about the Jettas which I don't like that much, but 2 Golfs? Though I like the one where the hubcap ended up on the engine, looks like a fancy air filter. Pretty cool.

If you re-read what I said I stated clearly only while the engine was cold to avoid this issue .

me said:

I ONLY!!!!!!use the kill option when the engine is cold before the turbo gets hot . Also it is VERY!!!! important to make sure the turbo has spooled back down before you cut it's oil supply by killing the engine.

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I thought I had explained this issue enough before when on & off in a TD diesel was previously discussed .

The possible damage from doing this in a hot engine is the reason , the main reason there haven't been any hybrid diesels yet . Which I have stated on more than a few occasions since the first person here asked why no diesel hybrid yet .

A spinning turbo must be cooled & lubricated by lubricating oil and intake charge air flowing through it . The on off of a hybrid on a hot turbo diesel engine can destroy a turbocharger . This is what anyone that does this is duplicating .

If you have a pyro meter , which I do in all my turbocharged engines you can make sure all has cooled back off from idling while coasting then practice this but only after the pyro temps have dropped back down to the 200 * F range . But to do this safely not causing extra wear the turbo must be spooled back down and have removed all the built up heat to do this in a TDI running @ normal temps .

Again I'd ONLY!!!! DO THIS WHILE THE ENGINE IS STILL COLD and when you haven't put the engine under heavy strain yet building up extra heat .

Clear enough now >?? I hope so .................

Clear enough now >?? I hope so .................

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Is this for me? I think we all agree it's not good to turn on and off a lot. I was just saying that in addition to being bad for the turbo, I don't think it's great for the engine either. The rest was just a fun argument I couldn't resist with the safety nazis. I won't do that again.

The best thing the world could do for car pullution and saving fuel would be to change all the stop signs to yield signs, or, even easier, change the rules to say:

"Stop at all stop signs and red lights, if there is a reason to."

Just think all the fuel, and brakes it would save, if everyone could be trusted to check for traffic while they are still moving! Actually, what does coming to a complete stop have to do with checking whether the way is clear anyway?

I take back what I said before, I think I'll start my own country on an island!

let me take back what i said in my first post. shutting off the engine while moving is extremely dangerous, i have not had any encounters however i started thinking like if something popped in front of me i wouldnt be in full control, that is a scary thought. the only times i turn off my car on the road is on my driveway and when i am stopped at a railroad track with this long ass train carrying 120+ cars and going slow as hell

i have recently p&G on the highway, (i drive when roads are empty, i hate driving in traffic) and P&G is very effective on my gasser, i am now gettin 37 mpg on the highway compared to my usual CC 34-35mpg

I do some basic things that help out:

• I used to speed more. Now I hold it to no more than 5 over the speed limit.
• I let the cruise control do most of the work on the highway.
• I watch ahead for traffic and coast (in gear) when I see slowdowns ahead so I don't have to stop...by the time I reach where the traffic was it is moving again and I've only lost a little speed.
• I coast towards the red lights as often as possible.
• I watch my Scangauge to keep track of my "score."

In speed-obsessed Phoenix where the surface streets are wider than many freeways in other cities driving near the limit got you rude looks, being cut off, etc. However with gas and diesel as high as it is now I have noticed a drastic change in the flow of traffic speed. From my observations I'd say most people are driving 5-10MPH slower on the freeways compared to just a few months ago.

I've never tried the pulse-and-glide, push starting the car, or cutting the engine.

All you guys would be in INSTANT denial should you be at fault in an accident doing these things you are suggesting.

pwipf said:

LokiWolf it sounds like you are saying that it is irresponsible and unnacceptable to drive a car without all that extra crap that makes it safer.

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I am not saying that at all. We all know that not everybody can afford a new car with all of the safety stuff mentioned above. But I do want some people to be realistic...a newer car with all of these safety items, is safer than an older car without them, even with an "attentive/experienced/well trained" person behind the wheel. These systems can react many,many times quicker than any human, and do help to control the car better.

rotarykid said:

And having or not having the engine on will not effect the operation of these systems .

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Even a non PS/PB/ABS car has better control if it has power. PERIOD. So the above statement is just plain wrong. It isn't opinion.

rotarykid said:

And as I said where I do this there is no difference in braking and steering .

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How do you know? Is it still a public road? Do you know what everybody is going to do, under all circumstances?

BigAndy said:

Tell you what -- if you stop using your cellphone, stop using your radio, give up your GPS system and other 'distractions', I'll leave my engine running.

That way, we'll both be 'safer'.

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So you don't do any of these things while driving? Really? Do you do any of them while your engine is off?


To conclude:

I have no real issues with all of the rest of the hypermiling techniquies, just the turning off of the motor while still driving on a public street/highway. No ammount of MPG increase is worth the possible loss of control.

I'm done.

BigAndy said:

If you drive as I do and have an issue about my driving and practice your driving skills regularly (emergency avoidance, cornering, braking, etc etc -- ie you race) I don't see any point in listening or heeding your warnings/advice.

I find it highly unlikely that you will be better at avoiding accidents (or minimizing 'damage') than me and my driving style unless you are a professional driver and practice your skills continuously. If you are such a person, I may be willing to listen and learn -- otherwise, you're like a few million other voices going blah blah blah...

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I have multiple licenses, from multiple sanctioning bodies...but I feel no need to explain or prove myself to YOU.

I can pretty much guarantee, that I can get your car, or my car around a track faster than you. If you are up to the challenge, drop me a PM, and we can meet at a track...

I am not speaking out of my butt. I know a decent ammount about car control, and am constantly listening and learning. There are always people that know more than me...but that is always true.

I really do highly respect you for your dedication to driving unimpaired, and with no distractions. I can honestly say, I am probably more distracted when I am a race car with the team talking on the radio...than you are in your street car.

Eitherway, with the engine off, you do not have COMPLETE control of your vehicle. Like I said, I have no issues with any of the other Hypermiling techniques, except that one...

BigAndy said:

Knowing the boundaries and the operating characteristics of each vehicle is critical.

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That is by far the best thing anybody has said in this thread...!!!!

BigAndy said:

I feel it's safe and I truly believe that I am safer driving with my engine off in my little 85 jetta diesel than most people on the highway who drive with an inordinate amount of ancillary distractions caused by their need for electronic interference.

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Agreed, Based on your driving habits, I would probably want you driving around where I live, than the plethera of Soccer Moms and thier SUV's, that are always on the phone, or messing with thier makeup...

I was not calling you out, there were just statements made in this thread about the fact that some have complete control of thier vehicle when it was off, and I just find that to not be true. I never said it was illegal, since I have no idea one way or the other(It varies per state), but wanted to address the stuff I knew about which was car control.

Keep up your driving habits...I wish more people drove with thier heads in the game, like you do.

Try one of those A2 Ds a 1991 Jetta which is heavier than the earlier models @ 5,000' - 7,000' with ac on and ps , maybe 30 hp / 45 lb-ft without the strain of ac & ps . You actually have more control with the engine off than on .

rotarykid said:

Try one of those A2 Ds a 1991 Jetta which is heavier than the earlier models @ 5,000' - 7,000' with ac on and ps , maybe 30 hp / 45 lb-ft without the strain of ac & ps . You actually have more control with the engine off than on .

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Huh???

fitzski said:

...ease off the gas on downhills; you won't lose much (if any) speed, and if you get back on the gas while you've still got momentum from the hill ends, you'll get back to cruising speed with little effort...

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Bayou_Flyer said:

...coasting up hills and overpasses, then accelerating down...

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RabbitGTI said:

...I lifted off a little on the long downhill parts...

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scottd said:

...and coast down hills...

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If it's a long down hill, then of course coast (in gear or out?), but I'd think you'd want to start accelerating before you get to the bottom, if you need to get back up to desired speed.

If there's a up hill on the way (I commute through the Appalachian Piedmont, so at the base of the last hill, is the foot of the next),
then I'm with Bayou_Flyer: Accelerate down hills; use the added momentum, and ease off going up the next.